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Author Topic: Spins and Stalls vs. EAW
GeoffP
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posted 10-19-2000 10:39 AM     Profile for GeoffP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'd like to hear opinions regarding how these are modeled in EAW vs CFS2. Seems the CFS2 planes do not transition to a spin from a stall as quickly.

I've been controlling the rudders myself with the flight model on hard, and expected more spins.


Posts: 31 | From: | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
JG51_GIJeff_<<+
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posted 10-19-2000 11:09 AM     Profile for JG51_GIJeff_<<+   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hiya Geoffp,

Personally, I think the CFSII model is much better. Talk to any pilot, they have almost all stalled, but almost none of them have spun. It isn't as easy in real life to put an airplane into a spin as EAW has it. I have spun the planes in CFSII and they seem to act mostly properly. Keeping in mind that I have little stick time in real aircraft, I do have some, and have an idea what they should act like.

JG51_GIJeff<<+


Posts: 99 | From: Pittsburgh, PA 15003 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Bigshot
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posted 10-19-2000 11:13 AM     Profile for Bigshot   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The spins in EAW are way overdone. I finally turned em' off. The spins in CFS2 seem much more accurate. Every pilot in training has to stall the aircraft at some point. If the spins in EAW were accurate, there'd be no pilot alive to fly. I really wish someone could fix this flaw in EAW. I'd love to fly with spins on.

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Posts: 1291 | From: Suttons Bay, MI, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Pasha
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posted 10-19-2000 11:35 AM     Profile for Pasha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The flight models in CFS2 are very nice, and more accurate than any other simulator I know of.

Just the fact that snap rolls exist, nice..

The spin code is a little freaky, it works right, but I think it goes 86 after about 2 revs, I'd say 50% of my spins are unrecoverable, that's not right..

The planes depart correctly, reversals are perfect.

I like it.

EAW isn't very plane-ish in alot of ways, it's more about gameplay, CFS2 is about flying, with the added bonus of shooting.


Pasha


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Stevsky
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posted 10-19-2000 06:37 PM     Profile for Stevsky     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
So what do you guys think about the lack of warning before going into a stall? I've got a FF joystick and I get absolutely no warning before it happens. EAW does a great job of buffet feedback right before a stall. I get all kinds of other feedback during the sim but not this important one. What gives?
Posts: 5 | From: Dayton, OH, USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
BattleHamster
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posted 10-19-2000 07:59 PM     Profile for BattleHamster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Why is it that so many people seem to think stalls in general are so deadly? Just because you stall doesn't mean you're doomed to drop out of the sky in a spin. ALL student pilots are required to practice stalls, and licensed pilots are required to demonstrate stalls and stall recovery when getting checked out to rent planes. ALL pilots have experienced stalls during training (many, many times on a regular basis), for practice, during checkrides, or by accident, and it's not considered an acrobatic maneuver (i.e., you can perform stalls in planes that are normal or utility category), and only the oddball, rare cases resulted in accidents. While accelerated maneuver stalls will often result in a partial snap roll (basically a spin), it is usually very easy to recover with opposite rudder and by breaking the stall by giving forward pitch control.

Snap roll initiation: full aft stick/yoke and full rudder in direction of roll desired.

Snap roll recovery: Release back pressure on stick/yoke and full rudder opposite of spin direction.

Low power stall recovery is even simpler: Release back pressure on yoke/stick if pulling back, or push slightly forward on stick if trim is holding nose up and increase throttle - really easy stuff. You don't even lose much altitude.

While one can certainly enter a spin by giving some yaw while stalled, this usually happens to the unattentive or the highly inexperienced. - especially with today's GA planes that have to be really FORCED to enter a spin, as they are just too damn stable. While some of the older high-performance fighter planes are said to have had treacherous spin characteristics, I seriously doubt they departed at the drop of a hat in any stall, since for the most part, they did not have radical airfoil and wingplan technology during those days.

Maybe it's just that so many people have experienced the stalls of EAW, and now they're scared to death of actually getting in a real plane and stalling. If that's the case, please get over it; EAW does not model stalls correctly.


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Bigshot
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posted 10-19-2000 08:09 PM     Profile for Bigshot   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
While the input feedback from my MSSWFFB is less in cfs2 than in eaw, I'm getting used to it. Pull a hard turn in cfs2 or build up speed and you feel the tension build. I'm relearning. Now I'm noticing the effects of a stall coming on in cfs2 by the slop in the stick. True there's no buffeting like eaw, but the warnings are there if you pay attention. I love the side slipping characteristics in the cfs2 flight model. No last second corrections when landing on that carrier.
Posts: 1291 | From: Suttons Bay, MI, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bigshot
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posted 10-19-2000 08:10 PM     Profile for Bigshot   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
While the input feedback from my MSSWFFB is less in cfs2 than in eaw, I'm getting used to it. Pull a hard turn in cfs2 or build up speed and you feel the tension build. I'm relearning. Now I'm noticing the effects of a stall coming on in cfs2 by the slop in the stick. True there's no buffeting like eaw, but the warnings are there if you pay attention. I love the side slipping characteristics in the cfs2 flight model. No last second corrections when landing on that carrier.
Posts: 1291 | From: Suttons Bay, MI, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kraut
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posted 10-20-2000 12:35 PM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hmmm!!!! Here's an excerpt from a British test pilot who flew a captured A4.
"The stalling speed of the FW 190A-4 in clean configeration was 127 mph & the stall came suddenly & without warning, the port wing dropping so violently that aircraft almost inverted itself. In fact, if the German fighter was pulled into a g-stall in a tight turn, it would flick out onto the opposite bank & an incipient spin was the enevitable outcome if a pilot did not have his wits about him."
"The figure of 127 mph was the IAS. The TAS would be a good deal more in the thin air @ altitude. Stalling speed in a 6g turn would be 311 mph TAS @ sea level. The nature of the high speed stall was embarrassing enough @ high altitude; @ low level it could be lethal, as many German pilots found out to their cost. Consequently it constrained many from hard maneuvers near the ground."
The last quote, as well as the first, comes from the book, Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mick Spick.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!
PS. I think WBs model this exceptionally well.

[This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 10-20-2000).]


Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
slugged
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posted 10-20-2000 02:17 PM     Profile for slugged   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm going to have to agree with those that say that EAW is overmodeled as far as spins go. Also when I took flying lessons in a Cessna 150 there really was very little if any buffeting when we did power on stalls. Mostly just the stall warning buzzer going off. And you would drop a wing pretty quickly but nothing that was completely uncontrollable.

slugged


Posts: 152 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Mshock44
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posted 10-20-2000 02:39 PM     Profile for Mshock44   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Although a small engine plane is going to be easy to recover, a 2000 hp plane with a mamoth prop shouldn't be that easy. I think that reality is probably somewhere inbetween CFS2 and EAW. In CFS2, you don't even have to power down to correct a stall. Just move the stick side to side and apply rudder, which is nowhere near a stall exit procedure as it's written. On the other hand, yeah stalls are not the grim reaper at a decent altitude, I remember stalling hard at 10000 feet in a p-38 in EAW and not being able to get out whilst pausing and following the procedure in the manual....

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Kraut
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posted 10-20-2000 02:48 PM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry Slugged, stalls in an overpowered warbird can't even be compared to a 150. Two of my Sabre pilot friend flew Cubs, Harvards, Spits & ended up in Sabre jets for the RCAF. Their experiences refute your experiences. Thanks for the input.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!
PS. No ill intended!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kraut
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posted 10-20-2000 02:52 PM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes, it was recommended to bail if your 38 was in a flat spin. This was a deadly venture in most WWII kites.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Mshock44
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posted 10-20-2000 03:41 PM     Profile for Mshock44   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Nope, It was a nose-down spin, almost 90 degrees.
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slugged
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posted 10-20-2000 11:14 PM     Profile for slugged   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kraut,

So what are you saying then that 2,000 HP warbirds experience severe buffeting as they approach stall?

So your friends flew cubs and found their stalls to be uncontrollable then?

Perhaps you should read what I said. I didn't say that I had flown a warbird I said a cessna. See the difference? I said the spins in EAW are over modeled. If you haven't flown it (EAW) then you shouldn't talk about it. Just as someone else mentioned after 2 rotations (in EAW) your dead around 80% of the time. And not because you get shot down. I really doubt this is accurate.

Also I would hardly lump a Sabre and a WWII fighter into the same ball park.

Incidently have your friends flown Mig Alley? I'd like to hear their oppinions on its flight model.

slugged


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Kraut
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posted 10-21-2000 02:47 AM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry Slugged, my mistake!
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
mayhem
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posted 10-21-2000 08:18 AM     Profile for mayhem   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
the stall model seems like it was taken from Air warrior classic or atf, the spin model and the transision from stall to spin seems good but a little chaotic. the spin charictoristics are also very good but there is no buffeting or warning before stalling however. its good but not the best. I still feel that the best stall and spin model belongs to aces high.

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Doug "Mayhem" Nelson
SO far gone!, Iam almost there!

[This message has been edited by mayhem (edited 10-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by mayhem (edited 10-21-2000).]


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