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Author Topic: LB2 Flight Model
Doogie
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posted 08-23-2000 11:37 PM     Profile for Doogie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, last night I decided to check things out in LB2. Wanted to explore the flight model. Loaded up the UH-60 for my test. I've got over 2500 hours of SH-60B time (the Navy's variant of the Blackhawk), so I figure I'm somewhat qualified to comment on this topic. First, I attempted a max gross weight takeoff. No nose dip going through translational lift. Granted, I wasn't expecting the Sikorsky shuffle, but aircraft responses should be pretty close. After shooting several normal and steep approaches, it appears to me that ground effect is not modeled at all. Next, I thought I'd try some autorotations. Took her up to 1000 agl, lowered the collective, and watched as my Nr decayed down to nearly zero!! That's not right. Tried again after checking all my settings, etc. Same results. Anybody else seeing the same results?
Posts: 50 | From: PSC 477 Box 122 FPO AP 96306 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
2ltviper
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posted 08-31-2000 09:33 AM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yeah, I fly Apaches and I am in the Longbow transition course now. I've tried to to quick decels at times and instinctively lowered the collective and placed the nose at about 45 degrees. To my horror (at 100 ft) the rotor drooped, even as I prepared to add collective to stop an overspeed (as is done often with low inertia systems, your SH-60B does the same, I'm sure). Ground effect is modeled, because hovering IGE seems to take less then going OGE. Perhaps it doesn't work too well while in motion for the computer to calculate. But most of my friends finmd the ga,e a blast to play and it does have a lot of realisitc things in ti. BTW, do you guys have 701's or 701C's or 700's?

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"Hellfire Away!"


Posts: 73 | From: Enterprise, AL | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Doogie
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posted 09-02-2000 02:32 PM     Profile for Doogie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Congrats on the Apache transition course! Sounds like you'll have a blast. Navy flies the 401C (navy variant of the 701C). Not many differences between the two according to our Sikorsky rep. Fly Safe!!
Posts: 50 | From: PSC 477 Box 122 FPO AP 96306 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
2ltviper
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posted 09-02-2000 09:54 PM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dou you have Marconi's or MPD's for your engine, transmission, rotor, etc.? The Marconi's took me a while to get used to in the A model Apache, but he MPD's might also take some time too.

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"Hellfire Away!"


Posts: 73 | From: Enterprise, AL | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Doogie
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posted 09-03-2000 03:07 AM     Profile for Doogie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
All of our engine, transmission parameters are monitored via the VIDS (Visual Display System). Looks just like the 60 in LB2. What's a Marconi?
Posts: 50 | From: PSC 477 Box 122 FPO AP 96306 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
2ltviper
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posted 09-04-2000 02:07 PM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Marconi's are vertical led strips that show the temperature, rpm, pressure, etc. of whatever it is showing. They have particular colors at certain levels. So if you are high in TGT, the light that illuminates is yellow or red, depending on how hogh you are. I guess Marconis are more compact than circualr guages like in a Jet Ranger. Of course, the longbow has two MPD, managemanet by exception. Butteh L model Blackhawk in the game has vertical Marconi stips if I recall correctly.

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"Hellfire Away!"


Posts: 73 | From: Enterprise, AL | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Doogie
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posted 09-04-2000 04:42 PM     Profile for Doogie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sounds like Marconi's and VIDS are the exact same thing.
Posts: 50 | From: PSC 477 Box 122 FPO AP 96306 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Vector
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posted 09-05-2000 10:53 PM     Profile for Vector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've always wondered about the flight model in LB2 and how realistic it was. Even now people still think it's the most realistic chopper sim, even though it's over 3 years old. How accurate are the avionics? Just by looking at the before mission load screens with the full screen photos of the cockpit, I can tell that the displays aren't entirely accurate but very close. So how well does LB2 model the avionics and weapons perameters?

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-\/ector, Flight Sim Sympathizer
LGB Bombing Strategy


Posts: 903 | From: Comox, BC, Canada | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Doogie
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posted 09-06-2000 03:45 PM     Profile for Doogie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
2ltviper is probably better equipped to answer that question. I can tell you that the Hellfire is "dumbed down" to make it easier to use in the sim.
Posts: 50 | From: PSC 477 Box 122 FPO AP 96306 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
2ltviper
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posted 09-14-2000 10:57 PM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry I wasn't able to answer earlier. The "Real" Longbow course takes up al ot of time in studying and preparation. Yes, I and many others would have to say that LB2 is, for a commercially bought game, very similar to the real thing. Of course, certain things like the RFI aren't modeled as well as they could be (if it was, it would seem all to easy to kill those SAMS!). Flight dymanics, well, its good enough to require more torque for increased weight (try using no ammo and see how much it takes to do a 5 foot hover compared to a full weapons load). Effective translational lift is OK for a desktop sim. The cruise speed is about right ans so is the max speed with all the stores, but how it does that is another thing. A real helicopter has a curved power vs. airspeed chart (varying with altitude and temperature) versus what seems to be a straight line in this sim. But wothout a real cruise chart, EA went the more efficient way of using a direct proportion of power to airspeed, although that is not right. Ground effect exists, but is perhaps not enough. The ral thing is a lot more manueverable, at least its SCAS allows a quicker attitude change. The aircratf slows down way too much in a moderate turn. It would be nice if it allowed ETL to take better effect for rolling takeoffs (not really needed because all the flying is at relatively low altitude and lower temps without really heavy aux tanks (usually one on a tactical mission). Any other differences I would have to say are classified (and its late so I'll give it a rest).

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"Hellfire Away!"


Posts: 73 | From: Enterprise, AL | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Scuro
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posted 09-16-2000 02:29 PM     Profile for Scuro   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
And that is why you only paid $40, instead of the few millions $(9 millions? What are the prices for the different variants?)
So I guess it isn't that bad a deal?
Besides as Viper mentioned 'the rest' is confidential. The rest is what lies beneath the tip of the iceberg.

Posts: 25 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
2ltviper
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posted 09-16-2000 06:38 PM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
An AH-64D, with FCR, is more than $30 million, which makes it more expensive than a F-16C 52. However, the price for the aircraft has been spread out over time since all American Longbows are rebuilds of A models. Not a bad deal to replace a previous sure winner with one that will do the same and more. The price I got from our battalion standardization pilot. He's the guy that insures that the battalion IP's are doing their job right and are in standards themselves.

Oh, all British and Dutch AH-64D's are new aircraft. The British version has an even better engine, although I don't know if the transmission is upgraded for it's use. There just isn't enough money to get new American Longbows vs. rebuilds.

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"Hellfire Away!"


Posts: 73 | From: Enterprise, AL | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gonzalo Nieva
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posted 09-17-2000 07:03 PM     Profile for Gonzalo Nieva   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Viper!

I have a few questions, if You don't mind:

What You consider to be needed for a good simulation of the AH-64D?.

You said the Apache is more capable agains SAM defence that what LB2 shows?.

Can You teach us some tactics You use?.

What Do You think about the Comanche?.

By the way: How You deal with the idea of be responsable for 30 Millons... I just got sick with the tough of scrap the paint of my car.


Posts: 917 | From: Huatusco, Ver. México. | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
2ltviper
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posted 09-17-2000 08:14 PM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OK Gonzalo. BTW, are you in the state of Veracruz? Just wondering. Longbow 2 is a fun simulation without being classified. If you look into the Longbow 2 manual, it talks about the RFI. It's like an APR-39A on steroids. Its gets an exact bearing to target that allows the FCR to attempt (I say attempt) a merge with a target on the same bearing. In real life, the FCR cannot ID the type of tank, but just that it is a tank (or wheel, ADA, or whatever). This can be done with a simple button push on the ORT grip or collective. I cannot get into more specifics. Unfortunatley, I cannot get into tactics. Thankfully for all of you, general tacitcs are covered pretty well in the manual. Keep this in mind--use your standoff range as much as possible. The FCR is incredible excellent for this.

I have never sen a Commanche up close. There are a lot of experienced (more than I) aviators that think the Commanche is a waste of money. It may well be, although the program is about 15 years old now. The OH-58D still will need a replacement. It's not getting any younger, although there is an "R" model. We have them at the heliport, but damn if I've ever gotten into one! It's just not fast enough. The first Commanche won't be out until at least 2006, probably later. It's a weird program, according to a test pilot I spoke to not too long ago. It gets money like a teenager gets hormones, in spurts. You may never see a Commanche in the Army inventory if the budget doesn't increase. I know some who vehemently oppose it as a waste of money. Others swear by it.

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"Hellfire Away!"

[This message has been edited by 2ltviper (edited 09-17-2000).]


Posts: 73 | From: Enterprise, AL | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gonzalo Nieva
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posted 09-17-2000 08:41 PM     Profile for Gonzalo Nieva   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Its a shame You can't speak freely (Too much secret altough the AH64 was exported so much, I wonder if it was a export version with avionics dumbed down ).

Yes I live in Veracruz, Huatusco is a little city dedicated to coffee.

[This message has been edited by Gonzalo Nieva (edited 09-18-2000).]


Posts: 917 | From: Huatusco, Ver. México. | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
2ltviper
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posted 09-19-2000 09:25 PM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Usually, export customers of American aircraft get the same thing. When it comes to the ASE suite (like the APR-39A), most countries will put their own system in. NATO countries like the UK and Netherlands might by ours too, but I suspect they will have their own. The APR-48 (RFI) is probably the same on both models. BTW, I've seen posts talking about export versions of F-16's and F-15's sold to allied countries being less than American versions. This is usually not true. The Russians did this often with export verions of Mig-23's (many not being able to use Radar missles) and never selling their best tanks (T-64 and T-80 series) to their "allies" in the Warsaw Pact. But their motive for this different than ours. Why give your "slaves" systems that are as good as yours?

I guess another reason why it's hard to talk about tactics with the Longbow is that only two units curently have them, one in Ft. Hood, TX, the other in Ft. Campbell. My battalion will be the first outside the US (OCONUS for those of you who know what I mean). There isn't a whole lot written for the general public to see about it because most data is still classified. That's why I sit in a classroom with a cipher lock on the door.

Yes, the Hellfire is very much dumbed down. A Hellfire shot is a bit more involved than what you see. RF handovers are a bit more involved, although Ican tell you that sending data with the Longbow net protocol is sort of like emailing (just not as exciting with neat pictures). The gun behaves very similar with a dispersion that looks a lot like what you have in the game. Rockets have a bit more range, though.

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"Hellfire Away!"


Posts: 73 | From: Enterprise, AL | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged

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