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Author Topic: Attacking German Raids!
Flex
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posted 12-06-1999 06:55 PM     Profile for Flex   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Chaps,

Attention! Do any of you Brits have any advice on intercepting German bomber blitz's? Im browned off at some of the results myself and the squadron is comming home with.Half of the results are nothing but pure black! The Stuka's are sitting ducks and their dust bin gunner has little accuracy against our seedy Spits.The Ju-88's arent too much of a bother either, we ring the bell every mission with them.BUT..Those damn He111 bombers are are buttoned-up! When attacking from the stern postion the tail end charlie nails us,a frontal attack is suicide due to the 109's lurking behind and playing pussy in the clouds as they wait for us too breeze through they dive on us with great accuracy.The only mythod I have found to attacking those German buses is the weave pattern, we start up on both sides of the formation weaving in and out of the formation taking passes one by one in pairs, as we muscle in a plug away , we rid at least half the bombers,My question is, does anyone else have any other mythods? I have yet to really put forth the effort to the climb and dive tactic due to the accuracy of the German gunners.Any advice? Anything Im missing here? Thanks a bunch, stay straight and fly right RAF!

-FLEX


Posts: 8 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Schatten
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posted 12-06-1999 07:01 PM     Profile for Schatten   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Herr Flex, a couple of things...

Die Luftwaffe trains our gunners very well just ask mein tailgunner Franz who covers der tail of mein Ju-88G7. Resistance is futile! Ahem...

Also are you running the 1.2 patch without any of the ECA addons? I haven't run EAW like that in a long long time but I seem to remember and it's been brough up on here before, that the gunners went to training school somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 patches. ECA tones down the gunnery to a more realistic level IMHO.

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Schattenjäger

"Der Horrido...Der Horrido..."


Posts: 2938 | From: Land of the Lost | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Flex
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posted 12-06-1999 07:12 PM     Profile for Flex   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Thoses buses have some accurate gunners.Ill give ECA a try and see if my boys bring the results up to where they need to be.Any more advice chaps?

-FLEX

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Luftwaffe my *** !


Posts: 8 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Opa
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posted 12-07-1999 02:45 AM     Profile for Opa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
HAHA!
Did I not tell you zat ze glourious luftwaffe would stay right on deiner *** ?
Und after ECAPanel 2.0, ze Emils are actually DANGEROUS! BWAHAHAH!!

Seriously, have you tried ordering a section to take on the fighters, to give you room to take on the bombers?
Besides, you need to get in close to get them. (400m is too far)

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Der Opa



Posts: 710 | From: Sandnes, Rogaland, Norway | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tannethal
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posted 12-07-1999 02:45 AM     Profile for Tannethal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Grab you GunEdit or a Aircraftedit (not sure but might be available on one of the EAWsides).
Edit the Heinkel Gunlayout and search in the flt part for the dispersion and set it for ervery defensive heinkel gun to say 15,00.
This makes it harder for the gunners to hit at distance, but they are still hot when you get really close.
You can do it for all bombers and the 110s if you like it.
In general Charles has in ECA downgraded the defensive firepower for the bombers and the 110s, I think they are still to though but that's only my opinion.

Posts: 537 | From: Olbernhau Germany | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gavin
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posted 12-07-1999 03:49 PM     Profile for Gavin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I know what you mean mate. I've been shooting up bombers for months in my Hurricane, and I still have the occasional **** -up. I ran into a tight box of UNESCORTED heinkels the other day, and they shot me and the squadron commander down right quick! Sometimes it's just luck. But generally when your going in by yourself up the tails, and they haven't been dispersed yet, your asking for it, mate.

Another danger is stragglers that drop back just behind the formation. Often your already lined up on the other side of the main group and can't get around to shoot him down, and suddenly you've got a bomber right behind you shooting you up!

I say, watch your wingmen. They know how to peel off at the right moment. (The ones worth any salt, that is).

Your probably getting greedy! Come in fast, weave, and then use short accurate squirts to shoot out engines. Discretion is the better part of valour. Better to shoot down 1 and damage a second than shoot down 3 and have to jump from a smoking plane.

When targetting, Always shoot at the engines! If he's not going down, shrug and peel off. You've probably damaged him enough to drop him out of formation, and you can pick him up on the next go-around.

The absolute WORST thing you can do is scream into the middle of the formation with guns blazing, and exit out the front. You will have fun, but you will die, or have to hit the silk or belly-land.

Always be cautious attacking the blighters near the ground. At low altitude, any damage your plane takes is VERY dangerous, as you cannot bail, and you've got only a few seconds to get set up for the belly-flop.

Stay back and snipe, be more cautious at this altitude.

As for head-on passes, I hate them. The closure rate is too fast, you waste ammo lining it up, and you seldom get your kill.
Not to mention the frequent collisions your mates take. Ramming is NOT an option! IF you want to master the head-on pass, you have to be a dead-eye shot and put all your pickels in the barrel, you've only got 2 seconds of fire.

Hope this helps, mate. Now fire up that Merlin and buster to angels one-five! We've got forty plus heading for London again!

- Flying Officer Caesar MacJoth, VC2, DSO
No.85 Squadron currently out of Debden.


Posts: 370 | From: Victoria, BC, Canada. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gavin
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posted 12-07-1999 03:52 PM     Profile for Gavin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Oh, and that word that was censored? It was a male Chicken! now what is wrong with saying the proper word for a male chicken?
C
O
C
K
-a doodle doo!

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"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly
developed it may be." - Adolf Galland.


Posts: 370 | From: Victoria, BC, Canada. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Flex
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posted 12-07-1999 05:42 PM     Profile for Flex   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Gavin,

Thanks chap! Those are some great tips! I will try them out, I agree with you 100%.I guess interception is best described as a game of cards, sometimes you come up big, even huge! and sometimes you bite the dust.Only skill and accuracy are your weapons against the bombers! Gavin, do you have an Email and an ICQ number I can reach you at? I would like to discuss this topic, the spitfire and the hurricane a little more.Thank you for your reply!

Stay straight, fly right RAF!

-FLEX

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Luftwaffe my *** !


Posts: 8 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gavin
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posted 12-07-1999 05:51 PM     Profile for Gavin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Flex:

No ICQ. You can email me at: [email protected]

and check out my 85 squadron page at: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/6823/85_sqn_log.html

------------------
"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly
developed it may be." - Adolf Galland.


Posts: 370 | From: Victoria, BC, Canada. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tobiwan
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posted 12-08-1999 12:48 AM     Profile for Tobiwan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I play with ECA 1.4 and those bombers take quite a bit to shoot down then.

I've just finished a BOB campaign of 15 missons in a Spitfire. I scored 76 kills with every relism option on and never reflying a mission. I cost the RAF five Spitfire Is, I bailed from one and crashed-landed four.

The least kills I got on a missions was my first when I got 2 He-111s and then lost my engine to a third. The most was 11 when I got seven Ju-87s and 4 Me-109Es then ran out of ammo. (In total on that mission my six Spits nailed 11 Ju87s and 6 ME-109Es for the loss of none!)

I only ran into Stukas twice which was a pity as that REALLY run up my kills....on one mission I got 4 Stukas on the other, seven.

I found the Ju-88s to be easy kills, just run in from the back, shoot, and break left. The He-111s where MUCH harder as the beam gunners hit me as I pulled left. I lost my engine on 8 of those 15 missions, and 6 of those times it was to He-111s.

Me-110s are also easy kills IF you can catch them.

All in all I found the Bob career fun! I'm just wondering which to do next.


Posts: 893 | From: Amanzimtoti, KWA-Zulu, South Africa | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gavin
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posted 12-08-1999 12:11 PM     Profile for Gavin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Wow. Another Marseilles in our presence!

Sure you didn't have unlimited ammo turned on? I find it difficult to believe that you could kill 7 stukas and 4 109's in a Spit with standard ammo load. That's like a kill per 1 second burst or something like that.

Of course, I am but a mere mortal who can only manage 4 stukas a mission on a really good day. One time I shot down 4 Heinkels that were all flying wingtip to wingtip beside each other, using the standard AI 'rudder wiggle buzz-saw', shooting from left to right I nailed all 8 engines.

It's never happened since, though. I think my latest patch makes them tougher to shoot down.

------------------
"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly
developed it may be." - Adolf Galland.


Posts: 370 | From: Victoria, BC, Canada. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Donster
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posted 12-08-1999 02:25 PM     Profile for Donster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Gavin,

That number of kills is easy as mentioned above against Stukas and 109's. I do it often in my P-38J without unlimited Ammo.

In those Immortal words of Walter Brennan:
"No Brag, Just Fact"

Donster


Posts: 10794 | From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gavin
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posted 12-08-1999 03:03 PM     Profile for Gavin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
The P-38J's ammo supply compared to the Spitfire Mark 1's ammo supply is not valid. The P-38 could shoot all day, it was a heavy fighter, and carried heavier, harder hitting shells to boot. The Spitfire carried very little ammo and had to get more bullets on target to get a kill. Also the ability to kill 4 109's on top of that, where the shooting is now against a fast, maneuverable opponent, I just don't see it, I just don't.

And if I'm the only one that comes to that conclusion, well I guess I'll never go on-line, 'cause it's obvious I suck, suck,suck in a big way suck at marksmanship!

In a way I really like it, though. It's much more historically accurate. Most RAF pilots considered 1 kill a mission to be excellent work, and the top scoring RAF ace of the battle at last official word, was given 19 kills.

------------------
"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly
developed it may be." - Adolf Galland.


Posts: 370 | From: Victoria, BC, Canada. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Donster
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posted 12-08-1999 03:35 PM     Profile for Donster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Gavin,

My results are not on-line. If I misunderstood you, I apologize. I haven't tried online yet, because I probably suck against real pilots!

Donster


Posts: 10794 | From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
JWC
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posted 12-08-1999 06:02 PM     Profile for JWC     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I think it is possible. In campaign mode while flying a Hurricane the most Stukas I have shot down [off-line] is 6 (out of 12) but probably could have downed more on that mission if not for two reasons:

-first, my squadronmates were killing some too! (we got all 12) Since I was the squadron commander, I guess I could've had more fun and ordered the whole squadron to engage the escorts (I ordered one or two flights to tangle with the Messerschmitts) so I could have had all the Ju-87s for myself......hmmm, good idea for the future! Of course in the game I was just trying to save an English convoy!

-second: I ran out of ammo! But wait, I wasted some too! I missed with my first couple of bursts (lousy shooting) and used up probably 2-3 seconds worth in doing so. Later I tried to protect a ship being attacked by a Stuka (already in its dive) and opened fire with a couple of bursts at long range, trying to scare the dive-bomber off. I didn't hit anything and again probably wasted at least 3 seconds (on the other hand the Stuka dropped its bomb well short of the ship!). Again using 20/20 hindsight if I had wanted a higher kill total I should have conserved my ammo until after the Stuka had finished its attack and then dove on it. But like I said, I was trying to save the convoy (duty, honor, country, that sort of thing!) It was very easy to kill the Ju-87s on this mission. Sneak right up on their low six, close to 100ft or less, and open up. They took little evasive action. A quick burst would usually smoke their engine right away (firing from slightly below makes their radiator extremely vulnerable). I didn't shoot all of them down like this though. If I held my fire longer I could break a wing off, and that's what I did too. I could have shot down two more climbing back toward France but was out of ammo. Had my primary goal been to get as many kills as I could for myself, I probably COULD have gotten 8 Stukas by conserving ammunition until I was sure of hitting them and then only firing enough (from their low six) until they smoked (which should've only taken a fraction of a second). This would have been well less than 8 seconds firing time and should have left me with enough ammo to take on some 109s too, especially if I could've pulled off a couple of surprise attacks on the 109s.

[This message has been edited by JWC (edited 12-08-1999).]


Posts: 1633 | From: College Station, Texas, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Collison
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posted 12-08-1999 06:29 PM     Profile for Collison   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Coincidentally, I intercepted a big Stuka raid last night, and shot down seven (all realism on but for engine torque), and would have got more but all of them were shot down by the time I finished with #7!

Their defensive tactics are to slow right down and try very tight turns - my last kill even tried to go vertical on me. At any rate, on six of them, their very tight turns just put them in a big (BIG) planform view in the sights, take aim at the engine, and poof, the big explosion of death with nothing more than a short burst. Shots taken at no more than 100 yards are guaranteed to be fatal, just ask Erich Hartmann. And presumably the engine lacks topside armour. All you really need to do is get it oil smoking (grey), but I like to see fire, as well.

Stukas are just the thing to run up your score.

~Ross


Posts: 50 | From: Williams Lake, BC, Canada | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Narrator
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posted 12-08-1999 10:41 PM     Profile for Narrator   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
In Far away New York a Young Computer Networking Specialist goes into a fit, thrashing on the ground and foaming at the mouth- Screaming !

BWUHAHAHAHA VRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOMMMM
BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMM- VHO IST MEINER STUKA- I NEED TO FEEL ZHAT SINKING FEELING- I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF PANZERS- ZHEY NEVER GO DOWN- ZEY ALWAYS BLOW UP !- I WANT TO GO DOWN!!

Co-workers finally manage to subdue him, and lead him away in a funny-looking jacket with the arms tied in front-


Posts: 207 | From: | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Donster
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posted 12-08-1999 10:51 PM     Profile for Donster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
HEY! WHO IN THE HELL TOOK MY JACKET?


Donster


Posts: 10794 | From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Narrator
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posted 12-08-1999 11:09 PM     Profile for Narrator   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Just to calm everybody down- Donster's jacket ties at the BACK not the FRONT- otherwise we would never get any usefull work out of him !
Posts: 207 | From: | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gavin
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posted 12-09-1999 11:06 AM     Profile for Gavin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
It was the 4 109's AFTER the 7 stukas that had me desperately trying to grasp a reality where a Spitfire can down planes using 50 or so bullets each.

Certainly I concede it's possible, with, say, FOUR lucky shots on the 109's that quickly take out their engines or the pilot, but I cannot believe it, I just can't.

With Easy campaign on, I've noticed some very weirdo things, like one time these Ju88's flew down on deck, and I was really liking it, ('WOW! an actual Ju88 low-level raid! COOL!) then they started smoking the ground. They lost 4 planes before climbing up to safe altitude again. I felt too ashamed for them to watch further, and I flew home, depressed.

So, if you have a turning hairball with some 109's and get off 4 quick squirts at 4 of 'em but don't follow your target to confirm the kill, don't count it, imo. Chances are, the stupid AI flew the plane into the ground when it could easily have flew home or something. You'll land back at your base and think you wracked up a massive score, but in reality, if your wingmen or you didn't follow the plane down (as they did historically for most confirmed kills, it was Mandatory for a second witness to see it for German pilots, for example) it ain't a kill.

So I guess it's just the way I fly. I don't break off and engage another target as soon as some disembodied voice (there's nobody near me at the time) says 'Good Kill! Good Kill! and the target only just started smoking, so the voice has some sort of god-like ability to instantly recognize a lethal shot. I stick to reality and follow the target in, and note the crash site, so that dispersal can officially record my kill.

------------------
"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly
developed it may be." - Adolf Galland.


Posts: 370 | From: Victoria, BC, Canada. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged

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