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Author Topic: Consequences... of rushing a mission to completion
stag
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posted 10-13-2002 06:46 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry guys. last night was a bloody disaster, one way or other. Me adding an extra item which screwed up the automatic nature of bunging in the downloads you needed, lousy pings, a mission that was just plain not ready to go, and to cap it all, my monitor gave up the ghost, or at least became very poorly.

So, Here's what I'll do:

Make sure that the "One Download" zip has EVERY file needed, included ones which should have been uploaded for the previous missions. the downside is it could grow very big.

Finish the mission as I intend, and not go off half cocked, even if I did set myself a deadline.

Post a list of the required addons, and make sure they are available, if not at the bulk download site, then at the primary site us individual zips, should your addons be more or less current.

Sorry again. See you for This mission when I'm reasdy to go with it.


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Donster
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posted 10-13-2002 07:05 AM     Profile for Donster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry I missed last night. Fell asleep watching football!

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"Its a dog eat dog world out there, and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear!"


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stag
unregistered

posted 10-13-2002 07:10 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Funny... Football has that effect on me too.

You didn't miss much. believe me.


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Rodger Bilko
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posted 10-13-2002 09:35 AM     Profile for Rodger Bilko   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry I never made it. Worked on Garden and house all day yesterday and slept like a baby after.


Hey Stag,

I think Don means that other type of football, you know, the one where the blokes wear tights!

--------------------

"Thingmies? We don't need no stinking Thingmies"

Bilko's HQ


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Donster
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posted 10-13-2002 09:53 AM     Profile for Donster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rodger Bilko:

Hey Stag,

I think Don means that other type of football, you know, the one where the blokes wear tights!


HEY! Those are pants, not tights you GIT!

--------------------

"Its a dog eat dog world out there, and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear!"


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Rodger Bilko
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posted 10-13-2002 10:38 AM     Profile for Rodger Bilko   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I thought pants went under tights?

--------------------

"Thingmies? We don't need no stinking Thingmies"

Bilko's HQ


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VMF-124_Gramps
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posted 10-13-2002 11:02 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
No prob Stag. I was banjo'ed from the git go. I couldn't see any markers on the map, and headed north east as soon as you said go. Russian Paratroopers everywhere. I think Doug and Gonzo were probably very lucky they didn't run into the many patrols I saw movin all over the place. There was actually a Hind in the line of march to one of the way points. Could be a very interesting mission. Note to self, take the law away from Doug so he don't go shootin at helo's, and try to avoid the blasted paratroopers.
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Admin
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posted 10-13-2002 11:06 AM     Profile for Admin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Stag,

Don't be too down on yourself. We really learned a lot about staging these missions after all. The idea of creating a complete file listing and zip is a great idea and will really expedite future missions and give us the opportunity to try a variety of missions, quickly and painlessly.

What did I learn from last night? I learned that we still need to improve our communications. Although the text briefing was quite detailed, I really had no clue as to what we were doing.

When the mission began, we waited for what I think you said was a pre-planned set scene, but I never really saw much other than some Resistance troops come running into the basecamp from the south. We then strode off toward the first waypoint then stopped abruptly (why? what was the hold up?). We then were instructed to go---at a right angle away from our waypoint destination---to meet up with Gramps. To get to him we dashed across open terrain (very dangerous). Why did we go there and why wasn't Gramps with us in the first place?

We then stood around and waited (I didn't understand why we were waiting). Then some enemy helos started to circle. Without waiting for orders (very bad, sorry) I started plinking at the helo pilots. I soon learned this was a bad idea and soon after Gramps and Stag bought the farm.

I was then in command and I decided that the best kind of enemy chopper was the crumpled, smoking kind, so I instructed Gonzo (our only other living member of the squad) to do whatever to take out those choppers. It was then I learned from the deceased that we should probably get the hell out of that zone. Why, I have no idea, as this info wasn't related to me, but I don't need to be told twice to get out.

I then re-instructed Gonzo to stick close and we'd high-tail it out of there---which we did. We proceeded,at a full run, through about 8 Km of waypoints. At waypoint Alpha (I think) we came upon a village and to my genuine shock, discovered that the civilian inhabitants had been butchered. It was quite a sight: bloodied men and women (not sure if I saw children) lying face-down in the village square. Very disturbing, but . . . wow . . . talk about immersion.

Anyway, I still didn't understand why I was even following these waypoints (yeah, a rendezvous was mentioned in the briefing, but I still wasn't sure. . . perhaps I needed to read the briefing again). Just outside of the town I heard helos idling. I cautiously approached the ridge above them and saw two giant Russian transport helos. I then proceeded to use my LAW to despatch them both. Not sure they had anything to do with the massacre of the villagers, but I felt I'd avengened them in some small way.

More running followed. We got to waypoint GOLF and were on our way to waypoint HOTEL when we ran across a patrol. I wasn't sure we should engage them or go around them so I asked the deceased what to do. Gramps said there was only about ten, so I took that as permission to eliminate them with extreme prejudice. I then, stupidly, without even co-ordinating with Gonzo, lobbed two grenades at the patrol. Most of them were killed straight off, and then Gonzo and I mopped up four or five stragglers. I shouldn't have just acted independently like that. As you can see from this recounting, I have a problem with that. In my defense, however, when confronted with an ambiguous situation, I prefer to act first and sort out the details later. And this plays back to my original point, I think we need to develop and learn to use a proper set of communications and chain of command. We've got too many generals and not enough grunts and were all speaking different languages.

Should we adopt strict military methods? Well, maybe, but anything would be better than our current approach. I do, however, still think it's fun to play and I don't want to put any chain of command and comms structure in that would wipeout the fun factor.

Where was I? Oh yeah, Gonzo and I were mopping up that patrol. Well, another patrol came up on us and both of us were taken out.

Last thing. In these long missions, I wonder if it is fair to other players that get killed early to have to sit and watch. I'm all for keeping the missions somewhat shorter or to at least have a re-start if some players get killed early on in a mission. Just a suggestion.

--------------------

Douglas Helmer
Forum Administrator
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Buster Brown
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posted 10-13-2002 12:02 PM     Profile for Buster Brown   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sounds like a wing ding mission you got going Staggers. Sorry to have missed out. But somebody has to attend these baby showers. I think all the men there were coerced by their wife or probably promised a treat afterwards.

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Eat more Possum :)


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Donster
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posted 10-13-2002 12:14 PM     Profile for Donster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Buster Brown:
Sounds like a wing ding mission you got going Staggers. Sorry to have missed out. But somebody has to attend these baby showers. I think all the men there were coerced by their wife or probably promised a treat afterwards.


TREAT? DOUGHNUTS?

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"Its a dog eat dog world out there, and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear!"


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Donster
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posted 10-13-2002 12:16 PM     Profile for Donster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OOPS! Damn double post!

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"Its a dog eat dog world out there, and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear!"


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stag
unregistered

posted 10-13-2002 01:08 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks for the input Doug. I appreciate the frankness. I hope you won't take it amiss if I reply to your report. My intention is constructive. We CAN communicate well. As the "CO," I believe it would be my job to expedite this. Last night, I think tiredness got the better of me. plus the fact that some things in the mission were patently NOT working to program.

quote:
When the mission began, we waited for what I think you said was a pre-planned set scene, but I never really saw much other than some Resistance troops come running into the basecamp from the south. We then strode off toward the first waypoint then stopped abruptly (why? what was the hold up?). We then were instructed to go---at a right angle away from our waypoint destination---to meet up with Gramps. To get to him we dashed across open terrain (very dangerous). Why did we go there and why wasn't Gramps with us in the first place?

Doug, Never had time to put that scene in place, which is why you never saw anything happen. You will, once I get it properly scripted.

the reason we lost Gunny was, well, he knew where he intended to go, whereas i just followed the waypoints I'd built in. Gunny was point, so we should have been following him. It was a while before I realised he wasn't in front of me. When I did realise this, I looked for him, then hared off in his direction. Personally, I would have stuck to the cover of the woods, but since Gunny has actually done this for a living, I'm assuming a solid reason for doing what he did.

quote:
We then stood around and waited (I didn't understand why we were waiting). Then some enemy helos started to circle. Without waiting for orders (very bad, sorry) I started plinking at the helo pilots. I soon learned this was a bad idea and soon after Gramps and Stag bought the farm.

I stopped because Gramps stopped. I guess I should have asked him for a sitrep, but from experience in the playtest, I found he usually had a good reason for doing what he did. I think I was pretty tired by then, and not really switched on.
quote:
I was then in command and I decided that the best kind of enemy chopper was the crumpled, smoking kind, so I instructed Gonzo (our only other living member of the squad) to do whatever to take out those choppers. It was then I learned from the deceased that we should probably get the hell out of that zone. Why, I have no idea, as this info wasn't related to me, but I don't need to be told twice to get out.

You made a command decision, but you forgot; the purpose of the mission was not to kill the commies, it was to get to the extraction point. If it were me, and I was undetected, I’d be doing my level best to stay that way.
quote:
Anyway, I still didn't understand why I was even following these waypoints (yeah, a rendezvous was mentioned in the briefing, but I still wasn't sure. . . perhaps I needed to read the briefing again). Just outside of the town I heard helos idling. I cautiously approached the ridge above them and saw two giant Russian transport helos. I then proceeded to use my LAW to despatch them both. Not sure they had anything to do with the massacre of the villagers, but I felt I'd avengened them in some small way.

After Joudov, you were pretty much on your own. Your duty was to survive. Your mission was to get to the extraction point. How you did it was up to you, but following the waypoints would get you there. all you had to do was remain undetected, or if you had to fight, make sure you kept the initiative.
quote:
More running followed. We got to waypoint GOLF and were on our way to waypoint HOTEL when we ran across a patrol. I wasn't sure we should engage them or go around them so I asked the deceased what to do. Gramps said there was only about ten, so I took that as permission to eliminate them with extreme prejudice. I then, stupidly, without even co-ordinating with Gonzo, lobbed two grenades at the patrol. Most of them were killed straight off, and then Gonzo and I mopped up four or five stragglers. I shouldn't have just acted independently like that. As you can see from this recounting, I have a problem with that. In my defense, however, when confronted with an ambiguous situation, I prefer to act first and sort out the details later. And this plays back to my original point, I think we need to develop and learn to use a proper set of communications and chain of command. We've got too many generals and not enough grunts and were all speaking different languages.

If the patrol had seen you, bringing those suckers down before they did unto you would be the way to go. If they hadn’t seen you, you still had the choice of fight or flight. Not even telling Gonzo, well…
quote:
Should we adopt strict military methods? Well, maybe, but anything would be better than our current approach. I do, however, still think it's fun to play and I don't want to put any chain of command and comms structure in that would wipeout the fun factor.

I hope you enjoyed the first mission. Notice there, I did have tight control of the team (Well, until I died). Would that level of control be ok for future missions? But as I said, last night I was very tired by then. Sorry.
quote:
Where was I? Oh yeah, Gonzo and I were mopping up that patrol. Well, another patrol came up on us and both of us were taken out.

Check six often!
quote:
Last thing. In these long missions, I wonder if it is fair to other players that get killed early to have to sit and watch. I'm all for keeping the missions somewhat shorter or to at least have a re-start if some players get killed early on in a mission. Just a suggestion.

Shorter missions would be limiting, but I know where you’re coming from, Doug.
The thing is, if we do work together properly, choosing our ground, keeping tabs on each other, we should be fine. I guess we should vote, but for myself, I’d prefer to let people play it through, as I did last night. If you and Gonzo had managed to survive, I’d prefer you to have the opportunity to think of it as one of your more memorable games, in a positive way. Unfortunately, for reasons outside your control, that wasn’t possible last night.

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Admin
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posted 10-13-2002 01:19 PM     Profile for Admin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Stag,

First and foremost, just so anyone who might be casually reading this thread, none of what I said in my above rambling post was intended as a criticism of Stag or Gramps, or anyone. Just being frank, as Stag pointed out.

As for being tired, Stag, I don't know how you even manage to stay awake, period! It was about ten o'clock when the mission finished and I was ready for bed.

I think what happened is typical of a new mission. No one knows what's really going on or about to happen so angst and anxiety highten the sense of helplessness in everyone at times. After a few more run throughs, everyone is comfortable and we all work together like a well-oiled machine. I guess what I'm striving for, however, is the ability to hit a new mission and everyone works like the aforementioned sensibly lubricated device

--------------------

Douglas Helmer
Forum Administrator
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Edwin Rommel
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posted 10-13-2002 01:27 PM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Zoory Ich mizzed it Schtag

Vhoz too buzy mit ein night mizzion shlashing zhe tyres on zhe LRDG Chevvy truckz....

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Feldmarschall Edwin Rommel
Zhose who live by zhe sword...... get shot by zhose vho don't.


Posts: 4399 | From: Dusty Oasis, Nord Afrika | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
stag
unregistered

posted 10-13-2002 01:33 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
So, Herr Feldmarshall, You have OFP? I have the perfect vehicle for you: The tiger Mk.3 mine-clearing pogo stick...
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Gonzo.
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posted 10-13-2002 02:33 PM     Profile for Gonzo.     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don't worry about the downloads Stag, It was my fault that I was not ready to play, but that was an atipical situation since I am playing from an internet cafe. I think a post listing wich previous downloads and a link to a sigle file with the new material will be enough.


Since the mission went bad from the beginning I am not sure of wich sugestions do. Personally i am happy to follow the leader (even you) and see him take the bullets first . I never knew the objetive of the mission, but I think those helos are a bit overkill. Since we didn't cross paths with any patrol, that run from checkpoint to checkpoint become a little long. The mission took us about 45 minutes and I only manage to do one kill .


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Gonzo.
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posted 10-13-2002 02:36 PM     Profile for Gonzo.     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Double post.

We need a delete post button Doug.


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stag
unregistered

posted 10-13-2002 02:52 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Admin:
Stag,

I think what happened is typical of a new mission. No one knows what's really going on or about to happen so angst and anxiety highten the sense of helplessness in everyone at times. After a few more run throughs, everyone is comfortable and we all work together like a well-oiled machine. I guess what I'm striving for, however, is the ability to hit a new mission and everyone works like the aforementioned sensibly lubricated device


I'm with you there. I think that will require practice on our part. Perhaps a change in commander, or take turns? the only reason I actually get stuck with overall command is that only the Host, as the CO can assign different weapons to people. to be honest, I would love to take a back seat as other people worked the problems I set. I have my own ideas how a mission should be performed. knowing what is just around the corner can affect my decisions.

As a matter of fact, I'm considering doing a mission as the CO of a large commie force vs. the rest of you lot; would add an extra element of unpredictability to the commie AI for you


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stag
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posted 10-13-2002 02:58 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gonzo.:
Since the mission went bad from the beginning I am not sure of wich sugestions do. Personally i am happy to follow the leader (even you) and see him take the bullets first . I never knew the objetive of the mission, but I think those helos are a bit overkill. Since we didn't cross paths with any patrol, that run from checkpoint to checkpoint become a little long. The mission took us about 45 minutes and I only manage to do one kill .

The thing you have to understand about Helos is they are like blind angry bulls; very frightning, but relatively easy to avoid if you don't drat attention to yourself. As for not meeting anything, I can only put that down to dumb luck!


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VMF-124_Gramps
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posted 10-13-2002 05:03 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry Doug, I wasn't very communicative last night. As in the past, when Stag went down, I'm more than willin to take charge. When we held up on the hill, after Stag went down, I was tryin to find a way out without gettin us all killed. It was my assumption (therefore my mistake) that yall would hold tight till I figured a way out. I also got a bit turned around and didn't realize yall were as far away from me as yall were. I was intent on gettin to the village when Stag called for the direction change. I should have just radiod yall to keep goin and we'd rally at the ville. Again, my fault.

Communications need to improve, that's a common problem even with special forces. Don't think that them boys get it right all the time. As for command, well, I'm an NCO. I don't command unless the officer goes down. It's my job to try to keep him and the troops in line. I failed with that last night.

When I told you there were ten at the road, I din't think you were going to engage. Like Stag, I would have looked for an alternate route around the patrol. As for who finally got yall, it was two stragglers that went east out of yall view. They flanked yall, pure and simple.

Now, if yall would rather, I'll just hang out and be a grunt. I know what can happen when too many people try and take charge. I can do that just as easy makin a cobbler.

The way points were there, as far as I'm concerned, as a suggestion. If you noticed, it takes advantage of terrain features to from point A to B with the least amount of exposure. There are also some good lay up points and some good places for ambushes along the route of march if they are needed.


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Admin
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posted 10-13-2002 05:25 PM     Profile for Admin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Lads,

Well, after some reflection, and reading all these posts, I understand now that I shouldn't have been shooting at anything. I guess that was the problem I had: not understanding that our primary mission was to get back to friendly territory, full stop.

Up until yesterday's mission, and unless I'm mistaken, every mission involved neutralizing the enemy, so I guess that's why I was befuddled about the ROE. You guys will have to watch me closely because if I have any ordnance under my wing, I'll be trying to take out targets of opportunity at every turn!

Who, me?

--------------------

Douglas Helmer
Forum Administrator
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stag
unregistered

posted 10-13-2002 06:27 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The missions in this series will run consecutively. "Consquences" is about still being in enemy occupied territory after the main action is over. All that remains to do is to get home alive.

Any new mission will always consist of insertion, action and extraction. If thos three aren't achieved, you can assume that the mission is still on.

It's only during the action phase we would normally initiate an attack. Any incidents in the "Before" or "After" would normally be a reaction to a specific threat; unplanned and usually undesireable.

"Before," you could sustain casualties to your force before you have caused any damage to the primary objective.

"After," looking at it from the military point of view, Special forces should not go on side adventures without a very good reason. They are some of the most highly trained individuals of any nations armed forces.

Any theatre commander would take a dim view of such valueable assets being wasted in the military equivalent of a bar fight.

From a personal point of view, I've done my job, I want to get home alive. Plinking Hinds lessens my chances of that happening a bit!


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Rodger Bilko
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posted 10-13-2002 07:23 PM     Profile for Rodger Bilko   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What an excellent post.

Isn't it great that we have a game that gives us these options and tactics to talk about.

It also shows how Operation Flashpoint is standing against it's competition (like I said it would in the review when it was released)

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"Thingmies? We don't need no stinking Thingmies"

Bilko's HQ


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Edwin Rommel
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posted 10-14-2002 03:35 AM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
SHULTZ!! Get zhe Tommy prizonerz!!

I haf zhiz new mine-clearink pogo schtick I vhont zhem to try out!!

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Feldmarschall Edwin Rommel
Zhose who live by zhe sword...... get shot by zhose vho don't.


Posts: 4399 | From: Dusty Oasis, Nord Afrika | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
stag
unregistered

posted 10-14-2002 05:42 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VMF-124_Gramps:
Sorry Doug, I wasn't very communicative last night. As in the past, when Stag went down, I'm more than willin to take charge. When we held up on the hill, after Stag went down, I was tryin to find a way out without gettin us all killed. It was my assumption (therefore my mistake) that yall would hold tight till I figured a way out. I also got a bit turned around and didn't realize yall were as far away from me as yall were. I was intent on gettin to the village when Stag called for the direction change. I should have just radiod yall to keep goin and we'd rally at the ville. Again, my fault.

Communications need to improve, that's a common problem even with special forces. Don't think that them boys get it right all the time. As for command, well, I'm an NCO. I don't command unless the officer goes down. It's my job to try to keep him and the troops in line. I failed with that last night.

When I told you there were ten at the road, I din't think you were going to engage. Like Stag, I would have looked for an alternate route around the patrol. As for who finally got yall, it was two stragglers that went east out of yall view. They flanked yall, pure and simple.

Now, if yall would rather, I'll just hang out and be a grunt. I know what can happen when too many people try and take charge. I can do that just as easy makin a cobbler.

The way points were there, as far as I'm concerned, as a suggestion. If you noticed, it takes advantage of terrain features to from point A to B with the least amount of exposure. There are also some good lay up points and some good places for ambushes along the route of march if they are needed.



Btw, Gunny, Keep up the good work. I'm learning. Slowly, but I am learning


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VMF-124_Gramps
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posted 10-14-2002 10:33 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'll try Stag.

Dis-remembered alot of stuff. Startin to come back to me though. You're doin just fine Stag, as are all the troops. Marsmanship isn't a problem, that's for sure.

Addition:

Doug, after readin your original post I never thought you were being being overly critical. It was constuctive and I take it that way.

In the previous mission, since you and I were kinda hung out on our own, being the designated shooters, and having been there done, done that, I took over tactical control of our portion of the scenario. Stag retained, in my mind, over all mission control until his untimely demise. Maybe an arrogant view on my part, but the I considered myself next in line. A loose structure would probably work fine with Stag (or the appointed mission commander) appointing the pecking order with different folks being placed in different command positions for different misisons.

The mission DOES need to be spelled out before we beat feet or anything else. Any questions should be asked and answered, and any problems worked out before we leave the final briefing screen. (Remember, the only dumb question is the one not asked. ) Along that same line, so should work out any command structure, point, rear-guard, or flankers.

We should be able to hit any new mission with well oiled precision regardless of who leads, IF the above are worked out before hand, and we improve comms.(Something I need to work hard on myself. Out walking point, I get kinda tunnel visioned and tend not to communicate well, again, my fault) Just know that IF I STOP, there's a reason.


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Sulla
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posted 10-14-2002 11:21 AM     Profile for Sulla   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am seriously missing out aren't I.

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"What we do in life, echoes in Eternity"

"Strength and Honour"

"At my signal, unleash Hell"


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VMF-124_Gramps
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posted 10-14-2002 11:43 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well Sulla, if you like squad level tactics, ai that aint half bad, (I mean, they will outflank you if you aint careful) and gettin together with some guys to raise all kinds of havoc, hate, and discontent on Russians on small islands (except Nogova, it's freakin huge), then yeah, you could be. OpFlashpoint and the add-on Resistance is all you need to join the fun. Oh yeah, and few add-ons that are fairly easy to throw in.
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Sulla
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posted 10-14-2002 11:57 AM     Profile for Sulla   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My biggest reason I tend to shy away from such games is that they tend to be keyboard-mouse intensive, and I'm a little slow and imprecise. However, OFP, being real-time, is slow enough, mostly, I may be able to handle it.

Also OFP is not to be found around here. I have a brother and cousin on the lookout for it cause I think they'll like it. It may mean a trip to Detroit. I don't possess a credit card, so I can't order it online either.

--------------------

"What we do in life, echoes in Eternity"

"Strength and Honour"

"At my signal, unleash Hell"


Posts: 3945 | From: Essex, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged

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