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Author Topic: Speculation on CFS3 Theme!!!
BadBooze
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posted 12-03-2000 09:10 AM     Profile for BadBooze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Howdy Guys ---

With MS implying that CFS3 would be based on prop-driven A/C, what does this give us from a theatre viewpoint?? Here are my guesses, what do you think???

1. Korea -- P51s, etc. plus the Grumman carrier cats and F-86. MiGs etc. on the other side...wow, this guess has real broad based potential!!! Land+carrier!!

2. North Africa --- we know all those.

3. Maybe a greatly improved European theatre sim, that would show up BoB, WW2 Fighters, etc (which would not be hard to do!) -- first looks at BoB are disappointing.

What ya'll think??? Fun food for thought and servicing our druthers!

Good Flying! -- BB --


Posts: 141 | From: San Ramon, CA. USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
JAS Gripen
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posted 12-03-2000 09:18 AM     Profile for JAS Gripen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Who cares?

Regardless of the date and theatre it will still be Combat Mission Simulator - not a game to give long lasting fun.

[This message has been edited by JAS Gripen (edited 12-03-2000).]


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BadBooze
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posted 12-03-2000 10:10 AM     Profile for BadBooze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Now that is what I was looking for....

A real positive, upbeat, fun response!!!!

Have a nice day!!! ----


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tzepe
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posted 12-03-2000 11:58 AM     Profile for tzepe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What kind of a dumbass name is JAS Gripen for a Finnish person?

tzepe


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Aviar
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posted 12-03-2000 12:16 PM     Profile for Aviar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Take it easy on him guys. He's probably just lonely.

Aviar


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von_M
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posted 12-03-2000 02:09 PM     Profile for von_M   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My guesses would be..

WW1, if it had a campaign like RB3D but graphics like CFS2.. drool


Posts: 459 | From: London, Ontario. Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
BadBooze
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posted 12-03-2000 03:47 PM     Profile for BadBooze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hmmmmm....very interesting Von-M !!!

You may be on to something...that one did not come to mind...!!!

Well, we will keep our eyes and ears peeled, I don't doubt that MS is working on a next generation product...my underlying strategy here is to get some lead-in to some aircraft builds in FSDS here but at this point, it is anyone's guess!!!

Tks --- BB ---


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BurninVernon
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posted 12-03-2000 04:42 PM     Profile for BurninVernon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My guess or maybe it's a wish on my part. What about a Vietnam CFS3? Wouldn't that be cool. Using and expading on the current CFS2 technology it wouldn't be that hard. Imagine how cool it could be. Phantoms, Skyhawks, Super Sabres, Skyraiders,Thuds and of course B-52D's pounding the North! Plus the electronic warfare aspect of such a sim wouldn't be too hard to model considering the radars and ECM weren't as advanced back then. At least not compared to today's standards. Hell look at Falcon 4 and all the arguments over how EW works. Vietnam I tink would be easier to model. A lot less MFD's to create! What do you guys think?

Burnin Vernon out...


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Hornit
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posted 12-03-2000 05:38 PM     Profile for Hornit   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The only sim that models EW warfare very well so far is F-18. F-4's EW world has been flawed since the get go. Hell, terrain masking still does not work with RP4! Don't fool yourself that it's easily modeled. Very few sims have even attempted it to date. Correct radar horizons and algorithms are huge CPU hogs and not something to take lightly.

Even so I think a Vietnam sim would be fantastic. My vote goes for the WWI idea though as being more marketable.

Hornit


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ramstein
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posted 12-03-2000 06:17 PM     Profile for ramstein   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
CFS3 will be booming and zooming Flori-DUH. Full nUKES enabled. Sharks teeth on nose. Special Lawyer seeking stinking missles. Stupid voter dumb bombs, and a leaflet dropping campaign with propaganda....

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BurninVernon
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posted 12-03-2000 06:59 PM     Profile for BurninVernon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hornit,

Maybe I should clarify my earlier remarks regarding a Vietnam CFS3 scenario. I did not mean to say that the physics involved in making a realistic EW environment was extremely easy. Maybe what I should have said was that there were less electronic gizmo's in the air during Vietnam. The North had search radars and SAM radars but not a huge variety of them such as in Falcon. And a lot of the aircraft flying in the war didn't even have radar and if they did it wasn't to the complexity of today's types such as in F-18 or Falcon. Plus there were no modern AWACS vectoring to targets like in Falcon. The Phantom was the most advanced plane in the air during the war and it's electronics package was stone age compared to the F-16MLU or the F-15E or the F-22. I just thought it would be easier to build a sim depicting Vietnam then a 21st century conflict. But I digress and I personally have grown tired of all the argument over EW in Falcon etc..Yes terrain masking sould be included and so should burn through variables etc etc..I just think Vietnam would be easier then say Desert Storm or a future Korean conflict like in Falcon. I'll shut up now.

BurninVernon out...


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crawlmjk
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posted 12-03-2000 07:12 PM     Profile for crawlmjk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Heard that it will still be a props-only sim. So, that rules out Korea, Vietnam, or more modern conflicts. Speculation (very speculative) is that it might be a WWII North African Campaign (only one left really, except Russian front. And IL-2 Sturmovik will beat 'em on that, eh?)
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BadBooze
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posted 12-03-2000 08:19 PM     Profile for BadBooze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yep -- props only puts the blinders on it!!!

WW1, North Africa, Russia, European Air War...(various).... hmmmm.

Well, we have learned to never believe what we hear -- our buddy Al has taught us that!


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Forward Observer
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posted 12-03-2000 10:40 PM     Profile for Forward Observer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My best guess would be a North Arican /Mediterranean Theater if they stay with prop/WW II. I don't think they will try
to follow Il-2's footsteps, and I don't see them repeating Europe. Also the Med/North African terrain is similar to the South Pacific in that it is full of wide open spaces with small settlements and airfields spread around. This would be easier on modest systems although a modest system in one or two years may be about 2 gigs so it won't matter.

My personal vote would be WW I. Red Baron was/ is a great sim, but the graphics are really out dated. Since WW I is an 80 + year old war, Mircosoft won't have to worry as much about polical correctness. All they have to worry about is living up to Red Baron's dynamic campaigns and gameplay, and that will be tough.

------------------
Artillery adds dignity to
what would otherwise be a vulger brawl!


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Ming_123UK
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posted 12-04-2000 04:17 AM     Profile for Ming_123UK   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Red Baron please, with CFS2 graphics and non-CFS2 multi...

Now you've started me off on the "Should I put the SLI rig back in and get RB3D running again under Glide?" - give me strength! <VBG>

Ming out.


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JAS Gripen
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posted 12-04-2000 05:18 AM     Profile for JAS Gripen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
So, apparently there is lots of faith in MS here. But I don't think they are going to redo the game (not graphics) engine from scratch. And it would take just that to make CFS3 worth buying when there is/will be titles with real campaings and replayability.

And like someone mentioned, I agree that Fighter Ace must be dead before CFS3 will have decent MMP unless CFS3 is either pre- or post WWII.

"Fool me once..."

+++This part of message has been localised+++

Ei nimi miestä pahenna, vaan mies nimeä.

tzepe (no siinähän on tosi perushärmäläinen nimi),

kasva aikuiseksi.


[This message has been edited by JAS Gripen (edited 12-04-2000).]


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nibbio
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posted 12-04-2000 07:03 AM     Profile for nibbio   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don't know what CFS3 will be, but personally I would very much like North Africa/Mediterranean.

A NA theatre has NEVER been attempted before, at least commercially, and it has real potential (think about the battle for Malta, naval ops, the desert war, operation Torch, the invasion of southern Italy, etc.)

There would be a chance to have some new aircrafts (maybe some nicely modeled Italian fighters? ) and also early war biplane British and Italian designs.

Ciao,
nibbio
http://web.tiscalinet.it/jobim/cfs2


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JAS Gripen
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posted 12-04-2000 07:58 AM     Profile for JAS Gripen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
A NA theatre has NEVER been attempted before

Almost correct *grin*

There was Desert Fighters, and I do think that player feedback was a major reason they selected this theatre instead doing the umpteenth ETO sim.

Even the early multiplay beta was much fun, but what I really looked forward to was the dynamic campaing. What a disappointment it was that members of DesertFighters team are now in CFS team and yet we get scripted campaing where we jump between Navy and Marines just like that...

[This message has been edited by JAS Gripen (edited 12-04-2000).]


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ral
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posted 12-04-2000 08:20 AM     Profile for ral   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't think MS will stray very far from their current efforts. I read an article a few motnhs back were an MS rep said they would concentrate on MP next.

CFS2 also has seetings for German and British Pilots (no Italian Pilots). I think we will see a European Add-On for CFS2 maybe in a years time.

------------------
http://www.dogfight.cjb.net


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nibbio
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posted 12-04-2000 11:23 AM     Profile for nibbio   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
JAS, I was aware of desert Fighters, also tried the online beta, but as you mention it was killed in the early stages before being made commercially available...
So there's really no way to gauge market's acceptance for WW2 sim based on the NA theatre, which was the point I was trying to make. Or maybe they killed the project just because market feedback was bad. Anybody knows the reason?
Ciao,
nibbio

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JAS Gripen
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posted 12-04-2000 11:58 AM     Profile for JAS Gripen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well nibbio,
the cancellation of DF had nothing to do with the NA/Mediterranean setting. In fact that setting had all that is demanded from a flightsim that wants to sell. Spits, Americans, Germans.

It's just...a year ago it was fashionable to cancel flightsims, hehhee, and Sierra's parent Havas being a French company could not bear the thought of being seen as untrendy :-)

And the beancounters figured that sims in general don't sell well enough - remember that Sierra has had real hits too, and at that time they wanted MEGAHITS and MEGAHITS only. A profit was not enough, it had to be HUGE, GARGANTUAN and preferably with little real effort spent. And historical sims take a lot of time&effort (and we know how bitchy hardcore simmers can be...What? Me? lol)

[This message has been edited by JAS Gripen (edited 12-04-2000).]


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JETninja
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posted 12-04-2000 01:42 PM     Profile for JETninja   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
BurninVernon.....

About AWACs...there most certainly was AWACs in NAM.....My Mom's Cousin was an Radio Operator in one, they were based on the Lockheed Constellation Airframe, with sort of a horizontal "D" shaped large addition to the top of the fuse, and a giant round one under the wing/fuse area......to house the radars.... there's one sitting on the ground at the Warner Robins AFB Museum in Georgia.

I've taken many pictures for a possible future model, we have NAM Aircraft/Scenery/ and Mission for CFS1 already.....

Same with North Africa, in fact many new terrain mesh scenerys are being released for the entire Med area......


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jerry
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posted 12-04-2000 05:03 PM     Profile for jerry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
how about

CFS III: Drug War over the Bahamas !

You can be the good guy and orbit enlessly in your DEA Citation, surveilling the drug lanes,

or, be a baddie trying to make the Outer Banks in your Cessna 210 before the feds get clued in...

Fun for the entire family! And not much strain for M$, just put some FLIRs and Lantirns on FS2000 aircrafts..

hahahahaha


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BurninVernon
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posted 12-04-2000 06:54 PM     Profile for BurninVernon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
JETNinja,

Yes you are correct about the Constellation AWACS in Nam. My dad was a B-52D crew-member and we used to talk about all the aircraft in Vietnam. I should have mentioned them in my earlier posts. However, I do not know how frequently they were used or how successful they were. I've read several books on the Air War in Vietnam, but there was little mention of the Connie AWACS. I do know that the Navy used a ship as an AWACS. I believe the callsign was "Red Crown". I still hold the opinion that the EW over Vietnam would be easier, but not too easy to model in a CFS3. The technology was simply not as advanced as today. But this is just my opinion.

BurninVernon out...


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zoso
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posted 12-04-2000 08:57 PM     Profile for zoso   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jas Gripen ! Have you get permission to use that name of your big brother in west ?
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JAS Gripen
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posted 12-04-2000 11:57 PM     Profile for JAS Gripen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If someone still wants to discuss my handle, E-mail me at:

[email protected]

Apart that this sort of thing spams the forum, we can dispense with Net anonymity. RGR?


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Seawolf
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posted 12-05-2000 03:09 PM     Profile for Seawolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Personally, I would like to see the CFS series continue on with the Korean War then Viet nam, Gulf War, and into the future with the F22,FA18E, and JSF.
The last sugestion is stretching it a bit, but Korea and Viet Nam would be a good start.

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352_Jonny_C
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posted 12-05-2000 06:49 PM     Profile for 352_Jonny_C   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Interesting discussion, as always when talking about what if's and about what everyone would like to see.

I think for the real enthusiasts, a new game has to have air combat. That's why, personally, I don't think a Vietnam setting will ever take off. Too much air-to-ground, not enough air-to-air.

A really good combat simulator has to have a good and expandable roster of planes on BOTH sides, and to capture the interest of those who like to immerse themselves in real history - or at least as close as they can get - it has to have an extensive air combat history behind it.

I've favored the release of a WWII Mediterranean/Balkan/North African setting for a long time now. The possibilities for planes, nationalities, missions and scenery are almost inexhaustible. Much more variety is possible than in any other theater.

I sure do like the idea (above) of a state-of-the-art WWI combat simulator though. It's about time for the next generation there.

Jonny Canuck

"Outnumbered? nah, I just have a wide target selection."

[This message has been edited by 352_Jonny_C (edited 12-05-2000).]


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Casey
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posted 12-05-2000 09:23 PM     Profile for Casey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It will be a simulator in which you can order your wingmen to form up, when there are no bandits in sight, and they will say "Roger" and form up instead of saying "Can't do it, I'm all tied up here!" and continuing to fly around like the freakin Blue Angels.

I'm just down on everything but EAW this week.


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BadBooze
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posted 12-06-2000 09:27 AM     Profile for BadBooze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, much great feedback guys!!! Maybe we should send a bill to MS (I know that statement will get some juices flowing!!!) for marketing services !

I would agree with many notes that Viet Nam probably would not be the best of venues for a third generation sim -- not for props anyway and would have alot of air-ground operation for the purists. Great idea for guys who like F-4s like me!!! (nostalgia)

Regardless, MS will patch CFS2, at least the big warts that even the most unsophisticated sim user would see (keep in mind we - here - are the upper x% of simmers and are the most critical)....I would venture a guess that most buyers of CFS2 could even identify many of the problems in the sim...

Keep at it -- Keep Flying Guys! -- BB --


Posts: 141 | From: San Ramon, CA. USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Seawolf
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posted 12-06-2000 10:05 AM     Profile for Seawolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
There is more to combat flying than air to air, BUT for those who say Korea or VietNam was not a air to air war you need to go back and read your history. As far as WWII it's been beat to death. I personally think the next and most logical area for CFS3 is the Korean War. F86,F9F,and Mig 15s. This of course is all up to the CFS guys and not us. They could decide to not do anything next or they could decide to do a WWI sim as suggested before.
Posts: 1322 | From: Clearwater, Fl. USA | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mk10 225th
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posted 12-06-2000 10:21 AM     Profile for Mk10 225th   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Gee...maybe they'd do a bomber simulation with MP?...


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352_Jonny_C
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posted 12-06-2000 03:00 PM     Profile for 352_Jonny_C   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It doesn't do to lump Korea and Vietnam together when it comes to discussing air-to-air combat. Air-to-air in Vietam was extremely sparse by any measure.

The most serious combat simmers are into multiplayer, and multiplayer is pretty ho-hum after a while without an air-to-air combat component. Sure, you can build in a level of historically unrealistic air-to-air combat into a game, but the demanding audience for this sort of thing likes a good level of historical accuracy as well.

Jonny Canuck

"Outnumbered? nah, I just have a wide target selection."

[This message has been edited by 352_Jonny_C (edited 12-06-2000).]


Posts: 9 | From: Muskeg Flats, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
BadBooze
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posted 12-06-2000 07:52 PM     Profile for BadBooze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Greetings All Pilots!!!

Well there are many preferences and biases, as well as opinions about past history but regardless.....

There are many here who enjoy the immersion and pseudo-reality of what the sims bring us and that presently the industry that produces same pretty much controls what we have and get.

More food for thought from the ole' visionary...what if....the sim user community assembled its own talent, and I am sure that all of the aspects of sim design and research are fully represented by the users...brought together a consortium of talent that could build its own sims on a open level (such a Linux is an established, but OPEN environment) and began to create its own sims.... wow, think about the possibilites.

Anyway just something for the future, surely not a place for the purchaser and complainer, but for the those that can make contributions, indeed love history and airplanes, etc......

Yep, advanced thinking and wishing!!!

=== Keep 'em in the air == BB ===


Posts: 141 | From: San Ramon, CA. USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mad Dog Mitch
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posted 12-12-2000 08:37 AM     Profile for Mad Dog Mitch   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JAS Gripen:
Almost correct *grin*

There was Desert Fighters, and I do think that player feedback was a major reason they selected this theatre instead doing the umpteenth ETO sim.

Even the early multiplay beta was much fun, but what I really looked forward to was the dynamic campaing. What a disappointment it was that members of DesertFighters team are now in CFS team and yet we get scripted campaing where we jump between Navy and Marines just like that...

[This message has been edited by JAS Gripen (edited 12-04-2000).]



Desert Fighter's looked VERY promising. Too bad the morons at Havas axed it and their flight sim arm. I understood it was almost completed when canceled. I still wish somebody would purchase it and RB and run with both.


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