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Author Topic: Eye-Opening Book
THEGhostrider
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Member # 7494

posted 11-06-2000 09:05 PM     Profile for THEGhostrider   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Who has read "Day of Deceit" by Robert B. Stinnett? Through now-declassified documents, and Freedom of information Act requests, and documents from the post-war and the recent congressional investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack, it seems that old FDR knew the Japanese strike force was coming, facilitated the unpreparedness of the US military at Pearl Harbor, and actually tracked Nagumo's carriers across the pacific. Was it really just a coincidence that a bunch of obsolete, WWI era BBs were in Pearl Harbor on December 7th, and all of our fleet carriers were away at sea? This book is not liberal propoganda, the info comes from the original classified military documents. A must-read for anyone interested in this part of history. Stinnett comes to the conclusion that FDR knew that the US needed to get into the war, but faced with apathy and isolationism in the US, he needed a galvanizing event, and a rallying cry - "Remember Pearl Harbor!" FDR was faced with a terrible choice, and in the light of history, he probably made the right one, but the US Pacific fleet was used as sacrificial lambs at Pearl Harbor. Naval intelligence and the highest levels of the civilian government cracked the Japanese codes in the late 30's, not just before Midway, as the history books will tell you. I certainly did not want to believe this, I was born right next to Pearl Harbor, and am a veteran myself. I served proudly, and believe strongly in the benevolence of the US gov't. Again, the book is not an incictment of FDR, - as CINC, he had the full weight of this decision on his shoulders, and basically did what needed to be done. I'm sure some of you will think this is a bunch of crap - all I can say is "Read the book." What a decision to have to make. How different a world we might live in today if not for the sacrifices of those who went before us.
Posts: 72 | From: Stansbury Park, UT, USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
ecoli
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posted 11-06-2000 09:22 PM     Profile for ecoli   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello,

Are you putting out the guilt you feel about knowing the truth? I knew about this years ago, early to mid 1970's. This is nothing new but I do support you in showing this truth to others who still BELIEVE that Pearl Harbor was just a TOTAL agression by Japan. FDR and his govermental machine did what it had to do, something that personally I don't agree with but history does teach and it does in a very sarcastic way.

------------------
"america the free? who ever told you that is your enemy!"
-RATM


Posts: 278 | From: Osaka Japan | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
dschin
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posted 11-06-2000 09:28 PM     Profile for dschin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Read the book, and found it disturbingly persuasive.
One of the oddities of the whole episode comes from Count Ciano, the Italian Foreign Minister to Mussolini. In his Diaries, he declares that Japan betrayed the Axis Powers by attacking the US instead of the USSR. If Japan had kept their agreement, Germany would not have declared war on the US, and the showdown between the latter two would have been postponed. Another excellent book, A Torch to the Enemy, by Martin Caidin, reveals that the B29, which was such a huge commitment that it cost several times the Manhattan Project, was originally developed to counter German long-range attack from Europe and the Southern Americas should Great Britain (and her navy) fall. The US could have been fighting a much different war, from a much weakened position.
The only shameful matter, as you point out, was the cynical decision to sacrifice (too many!) sailors at Pearl Harbor and to destroy the reputations of worthy US Navy leaders there. I've always wondered why Admiral King was kept on; he never struck me as particularly capable. For example, he balked at supplying landbased attacks on Uboats early on because they were not his to command, and probably prolonged the Uboat menace. If he were in on the FDR's strategy toward Japan, it could well be the explanation for his continued tenure.

Posts: 287 | From: Madison WI USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
THEGhostrider
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posted 11-06-2000 10:03 PM     Profile for THEGhostrider   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ecoli,

I'm not sure I understand your post. Why would I feel any guilt? The Axis powers needed to be stopped. They (their governments, not their people) were in the wrong. The Allied governments were in the right. I think FDR made a terrible, but shrewd decision. It is just a new, more honest perspective, on how those events were orchestrated by the governments of both nations. As you say, this was not a simple black and white case of Japanese aggression against the US. FDR manipulated Japan into this aggression, but Tojo, et al, were ripe for the manipulation, due to their hopes for a Greater Asia co-prosperity sphere. Yeah, right. Like the 'co-prosperity' at Nanking?
FDR's was the ultimate Machiavellian decision - the end justifies the means. But all those lives lost, all those careers and reputations ruined on December 7th, 1941.


Posts: 72 | From: Stansbury Park, UT, USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gnat
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posted 11-07-2000 12:17 AM     Profile for Gnat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm sorry, but does anyone honestly believe FDR would have sacrificed almost the whole of the Pacific Fleet just to get Americans
"fired up"? These allegations have been floating around since Dec 7,41. One glance back through American history will show FDR
had made some SERIOUS enemies with his reform programs of the 30's, many of which were not above smearing the Presidency with these kinds of rumors.
I think the truth lies rather in the fact we as a people simply would not face the spectre of Axis expansion on a global scale. No one considered the Japanese the threat they would become(except the Russians). The pundits expected the Japanese to throw the full force of their military at the Phillipines, or Malaya and Burma. No one expected them to be dumb enough to draw us into a shooting war.

Posts: 10 | From: St. Louis,Mo,USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
THEGhostrider
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posted 11-07-2000 08:46 AM     Profile for THEGhostrider   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Gnat,

I originally thought as you did. My gunnery instructor at Fort Sill, OK used to say to us when we had questions which were answered by our Field Manuals, "RTFB" (Read the "fantastic" book."

Again, this book is not based on political smear tactics, it is based on declassified military documents. Before you dismiss it as propoganda, read it. FDR did not "sacrifice the entire Pacific Fleet". The BBs which were sunk were obsolete WWI era battleships which were quite unimportant in the naval war in the Pacific. The lives of their crews, however, were not unimportant.


Posts: 72 | From: Stansbury Park, UT, USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Chivas
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posted 11-07-2000 10:12 AM     Profile for Chivas   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The Americans were in the War as soon as the Japanese attacked, so FDR did not have to sacrifice anything. I dont know why they failed to see the impending attack. If FDR had known the Japanese were about to attack Pearl Harbour, those ships would have been at sea, and I'm sure he would have had a strong welcoming committee for them.
Posts: 46 | From: Ladysmith, B.C. Canada | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
THEGhostrider
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posted 11-09-2000 02:07 PM     Profile for THEGhostrider   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Your specualtion is all well and good, but READ THE BOOK. It is based on declassified military documents, not speculation and idealism. I am not bashing FDR or the US. I am a proud American combat veteran, but you need to read this book.
Posts: 72 | From: Stansbury Park, UT, USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Flash Gordon
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posted 11-09-2000 03:15 PM     Profile for Flash Gordon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have a difficult time believing 'conspiracy theories' such as these. Maybe I'm cynical but I find it difficult to believe that anyone could perpetrate something of this magnitude - not because I doubt people could be this cold-blooded but merely because I doubt people could be so competent as to pull it off. I believe the USA didn't give the Japanese government much credit vis a vis their willingness to go to war. Both the British and the USA were convinced prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor that the majority of Japanese aircraft designs were biplanes, etc. and the US government practically negotiated the Japanese into a corner, mainly because they didn't think the Japanese would go to war. The Dutch, the British, the US ambassador in Tokyo all reported that an attack on Pearl Harbor was imminent but the authorities in Hawaii were not informed by Washington. Some people might look at these facts and smell a conspiracy -

- me, I look at these facts and see just good, old-fashioned incompetance. Like it or not, there was a lot of it about in the US prior to (and certainly after) the US entry into WWII.

As for Japan 'betraying' the Axis by declaring war on the US instead of Russia - good lord. There was practically no degree of cooperation between the Japanese and the Germans during the war. It was almost comical if not pathetic.


Posts: 353 | From: Paris, Ile de France, France | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged

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