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Author Topic: Hmm, Wells the new flight models...
Bando
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posted 10-29-2000 12:59 PM     Profile for Bando   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I love them first off, but one thing...I can't take off for the life of me (well ok maybe a 1 in 10 chance) if I have a load of anything long range, from the essex or enterprise carriers (they are the only ones I have tried).

As soon as I clear the deck, she starts to drift to one side and it's all over from there, seems like the torque from the prop is too much to counteract with any amount of rudder. Is my plane too heavy? I have a hard time believing that no long range missions could be undertaken from the carriers?

Thanks for your work!

EDIT: bah forget it, I just found your 1.6 models. And I tried with 80% flap, had no problem with a full loadout, I guess I was still under the impession that the flaps did basically nothing

Thanks again

[This message has been edited by Bando (edited 10-29-2000).]


Posts: 43 | From: brant, on, can | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 10-29-2000 01:21 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Bando,

Note the speed of the carrier. In the carrier takeoff missions, where it's doing 30 knts, I didn't have a problem getting off with any plane or any load. No flaps were needed in most cases. During the campaigns, I know one mission for Midway, the carrier is only doing 20 knts. For that mission, I needed full flaps and it was close! That was a Wildcat with drop tanks. Hold about 1/3 right aileron (or trim it) and about 1/2 up elevator on leaving the deck. Hold any rudder you had for the takeoff run. See if that helps? If you can be more specific with plane type and loadout, I'll try and see if I can duplicate the problem. Part of the key is not waiting until the nose drops off the deck before you start to pull it back up.


Posts: 83 | From: | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
plummerx
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posted 10-29-2000 01:37 PM     Profile for plummerx   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wells, I can now at least get off the deck in a loaded avenger or sbd(medium bomb 80%fuel), but it's quite dodgy at best. But the sbd's rate of climb is much better.
I still feel that something is not right tho. Either the carriers are to small or???.
My feeling is that the probblem is not now horsepower, lift, or drag, but acceleration.
Watching victory at sea and I see loaded sbd'd and avengers lift off before they reach the end of the deck. Even on jeep carriers.
I also believe that that perhaps the thrust of each prop is not taken into account correctly. Not all will have the same prop with the same performance profile. Some may be more efficient and produce more thrust at takeoff rpm's.

Posts: 570 | From: Graham WA USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jay Bauls
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posted 10-29-2000 01:49 PM     Profile for Jay Bauls   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

[This message has been edited by Jay Bauls (edited 10-29-2000).]


Posts: 22 | From: CT, USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Aviar
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posted 10-29-2000 02:13 PM     Profile for Aviar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wells,

Nice job! I've only been flying the Corsair but the difference between 1.5 and 1.6 was very apparent. The bird seems to have more power and maybe even a little bit more stability. Anyway, keep up the great work.

It's funny how a few changes to the FM can improve the gameplay in a particular sim.

Aviar


Posts: 196 | From: Bergen County, NJ USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 10-29-2000 03:36 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
plummerx,

I think it's probably more to do with not having enough of a headwind. A carrier can do 30 knts + any headwind (10-15 knts?). We aren't getting the prevailing winds on top of the carrier's speed, which may make things a bit difficult. In any case, I'll do some more testing. You're right about props. The slower planes would not have as much twist built into their propellers, making them more efficient during the takeoff run. I may have to start digging into the propeller tables.


Posts: 83 | From: | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
plummerx
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posted 10-29-2000 06:11 PM     Profile for plummerx   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have made a custom takeoff mission, with the carrier at 30 kts, but still tough getting of the deck.
I have tried messing with the prop rpms but I really thing that the actual thrust is still not correct.
Not only does the pitch and rpm come into play, but the props diameter and profile as well. This is gonna be a toughie to figure out.
I am searching the web for takeoff roll distances now to see what they should be.

Posts: 570 | From: Graham WA USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Bando
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posted 10-29-2000 06:13 PM     Profile for Bando   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think I solved the problem:

1) start engine
2) turn 180
3) go wayyy back to the wires.
4) turn again
5) take off

not perfect but it'll do. you were right wells, on the enterprise, i couldnt take off at all becuase it was doing about 19 knots. on the essex i had no problem it was doig 30 knots


Posts: 43 | From: brant, on, can | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Airbuddha
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posted 10-29-2000 06:19 PM     Profile for Airbuddha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Wells,

I would think with the lack of wind in CFS2 that you would have to fudge a little in the air file somewhat to get proper takeoff for some planes.

The Enterprise gives you a 30kt headwind to take off with, but when building custom missions, I've only managed to get about 17kts.

I haven't had time to play with the mission builder much, but I can't find any way to speed them up. Does anyone know how to increase their speed?

A 17kt headwind just ain't enough. Real WWII Navy planes routinely took off with 50+kt headwinds when factoring in wind and carrier speed.

I can take off from the Enterprize in the Ruptured Duck and it's a little dicey, but when making a custom mission and using the Hornet, it's harder by a wide margin with only 17kts of wind to head into.

It took me a dozen tries before finding a technique that worked, but I know for a fact that the Doolittle planes lifted off from the Hornet with room to spare except for the Duck, and that was because Lt. Lawson forgot to put flaps down before taking off. Yikes!

Faster carriers or more wind would be the cinch, but if they can't be made faster...

Regards, Airbuddha
The Hangar

[This message has been edited by Airbuddha (edited 10-29-2000).]


Posts: 430 | From: Slipper Gut, WV, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Michael 2
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posted 10-29-2000 07:32 PM     Profile for Michael 2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I would rather edit all the missions to give the carriers 30 knots of speed than have fudged flight models (although if the prop data can be made more accurate I wouldn't obviously call that fudging). According to the manual the carriers will all go thirty plus knots. You just change the speed for all the carrier waypoints in the mission builder. The real problem, as note above, is that there is no wind in the missions. It appears originally that wind was intended because the Mission Builder help tells you how to edit it. But in the weather dialogue there is no wind tab and in the game help, it says that there is wind only in free flight. Wind ought to be added in a patch, but MS is well known for its reluctance to patch...
Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
slugged
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posted 10-29-2000 09:25 PM     Profile for slugged   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I like the new flight models much more than version 1.5. However something still doesn't seem right. All of the fighters seem a little too unstable in all axis. I also still get that oscillating stall.

They just feel a little too much like butterflies and a little less like 7,000 lbs + fighters.

slugged



Posts: 152 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 10-30-2000 10:19 AM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think I may have a fix for the carrier takeoffs without having to really fudge anything. I changed the min prop pitch to 0 and I got an extra 4 knts or so on takeoff with the Dauntless. The default was something like 20 degrees, which means the prop wasn't 'kicking in' until about 110 knts!
Posts: 83 | From: | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged

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