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Author Topic: Flight Models v1.6
Wells
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posted 10-29-2000 01:42 AM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The Kate, Dauntless, Devastator and Avenger have been added with tailhooks and folding wings, where applicable. All can get off the carrier with a torpedo or heavy bombload in the carrier takeoff mission. The Avenger was missing 35 square feet of wing area, which may have contributed to any carrier takeoff problem it had. Flaps provide lift, which will help carrier takeoffs as well. I've gone over the induced drag for all the planes. It was found that it was too high in most cases, so speeds for best climb, glide and sustained turns should now be ok. No B-24 or C-47 yet...

CFS2 Flight Models v1.6


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Kraut
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posted 10-29-2000 01:30 AM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Herr Wells, you areda person. Danke!!!1
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
SR
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posted 10-29-2000 01:43 AM     Profile for SR   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Nice <S>

Thanks , SR

[This message has been edited by SR (edited 10-29-2000).]


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Michael 2
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posted 10-29-2000 01:54 AM     Profile for Michael 2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Wells!
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ArgonV
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posted 10-30-2000 06:01 AM     Profile for ArgonV   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Let me get this straight.... the Devastator now has folding wings?

[This message has been edited by ArgonV (edited 10-30-2000).]


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BadBooze
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posted 10-30-2000 08:49 AM     Profile for BadBooze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello Mr. Wells ----

Have the 1.6 FMs loaded and running very nicely and look great -- good improvements!

Is it possible to get the stock MS braking efficiency put into your models?? There is no way presently for a pilot to lean on his brakes if needed...as many do (I know since I fly a bunch)...brakes can always be "pumped" to allow for landing roll if desired. Presently can't stop a plane if I want to.

Many thanks and keep up the good work !!!!

==== :-) ==== Fly!!


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Flanker35M
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posted 10-30-2000 09:28 AM     Profile for Flanker35M   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
S!

I tried out the Wells 1.6 FM for a while and had to revert back the FM of the N1K2-J almost immediately.IMO it has gone to the worse by being almost impossible to fly.The plane starts to yaw like mad when slightest pull on the stick is applied (yes..I have adjusted the stick to less sensitive) and is more unstable in general.
Zero is a joy to fly.Landing is a breeze and U don't even need brakes if U land by the book at 75kts...Also elominates the veering to left to the last few kts only.Improvement.
In general Wells's FM have been better than the original ones.Good work.

Flanker


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Redneck
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posted 10-30-2000 09:29 AM     Profile for Redneck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Do you need to load all of Wells FMs or just the 1.6 to get all the improvements?
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Wells
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posted 10-30-2000 09:55 AM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
All changes to date are in the 1.6 package.

Argon, folding wings didn't work for the Devastator or Dauntless, only the Avenger and Kate.

Thanks for the feedback guys!


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Redneck
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posted 10-30-2000 10:29 AM     Profile for Redneck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thank you sir.
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Big Guns
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posted 10-30-2000 11:20 PM     Profile for Big Guns   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wells,

Thanks for the new models I am giving them a try tonight, it's midnight here in Houston and I just can't seem to turn this computer off.......

quote:
Originally posted by Wells:
The Kate, Dauntless, Devastator and Avenger have been added with tailhooks and folding wings, where applicable. All can get off the carrier with a torpedo or heavy bombload in the carrier takeoff mission. The Avenger was missing 35 square feet of wing area, which may have contributed to any carrier takeoff problem it had. Flaps provide lift, which will help carrier takeoffs as well. I've gone over the induced drag for all the planes. It was found that it was too high in most cases, so speeds for best climb, glide and sustained turns should now be ok. No B-24 or C-47 yet...

CFS2 Flight Models v1.6



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Seawolf
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posted 10-30-2000 11:27 PM     Profile for Seawolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Wells.

I do have one question.
I am noticing a yawing effect while in a dive with these flight models, very tuff to keep stable and on a steady line. Planes want to slip side to side and rudder inputs only agrivate things.
anyone else getting this?????

Otherwise great job and thanks for fixing the TBM. I couldn't get off the deck no matter what I tried.


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Wells
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posted 10-31-2000 01:18 AM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Seawolf,

There should be *some* oscillation at normal speeds (about 2 oscillations in yaw) before things stabilize. Check your speed in the dive. It's very easy to exceed the maximum dive limits for these crates (500 mph for Corsair), so if you are having problems above those speeds, I can't help you! But if the problem is at normal speeds, I'll have to fix it! Let me know which planes you are having trouble with?


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Flanker35M
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posted 10-31-2000 03:00 AM     Profile for Flanker35M   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
S!

Wells..I have this oscillation at normal speeds with N1K2-J George.After I reverted back to the original FM,it became more "calmer" to fly.I have to give a try to the US planes,since I fly mainly IJN.F4F was better than original after a brief test.
Keep up the good work.

Flanker


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Jensen
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posted 10-31-2000 04:59 AM     Profile for Jensen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I actually noticed this yawing flying straight and level in the Devastator and in the Kate, both with torpedoes mounted. Last night I also noticed AI controlled Kates to do this.
Also the Corsair is now very sensitive if you put the nose down to fast, but that migth
be realistic for all I know. Carrier takeoffs
at least are possible now even in a fully loaded torpedo bomber.

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SpinDry
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posted 10-31-2000 06:55 AM     Profile for SpinDry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mssr. Wells, I'm impressed with your work. Thank you! As quickly as you came out with FM fixes for CFS2, I wonder if you've already aimed your talents at the original CFS1 birds? I've looked for a compilation of your FM work around the Web but haven't seen anything so I figured I'd ask you directly. I'm most intrested in any work related to the FW-190A8 and D9 series, if such exists. Thanks much in advance!

Spinny


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Ripsnort
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posted 10-31-2000 07:16 AM     Profile for Ripsnort   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hiya Wells! <S>
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fodder
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posted 11-03-2000 10:43 AM     Profile for fodder   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ripsnort: are there any sims you don't fly?

BTW, I'm buying a house in Sumner, WA.

This is weird.

-Fodder


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SR
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posted 11-03-2000 12:10 PM     Profile for SR   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fodder:
Ripsnort: are there any sims you don't fly?
-Fodder

NO the question is what forum doesn't he visit j/k

------------------
Cheers SR

A air flight start page


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Ripsnort
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posted 11-03-2000 12:20 PM     Profile for Ripsnort   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fodder:
Ripsnort: are there any sims you don't fly?

BTW, I'm buying a house in Sumner, WA.

This is weird.

-Fodder


Hehe, well, I've pretty much bagged all the post 1999 modern day jet sims, F4 does the trick for me, and as a beta tester in real life for a major commercial manufacturer in software used to create military and commercial aircraft, I find myself on a computer about 16 hours a day!

Hey, we're dang near neighbors! I'm up at Lake Tapps, lets meet for a beer/coffee/lunch sometime after you get moved in.

SR: Yes, BB's have replaced my televison time! hehe!

Regards,

------------------
Ripsnort(-rip1-)
=CO= VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
Aces High First Training Corp
"SPEL CHEKER OFF"
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info
Click here for 15th Panzer info
Click here for interviews with other Aces High Squadrons

"If you cannot learn to do something well,
learn to enjoy doing it poorly"

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 11-03-2000).]


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Andy Bush
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posted 11-03-2000 01:06 PM     Profile for Andy Bush   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Why is it that when I'm in a banked turn that the aircraft tries to roll wings level?

Dihedral?


If so, why?

Andy


Posts: 595 | From: St Louis, Mo | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 11-03-2000 04:05 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Andy,

Dihedral will do that. I'll try and draw a very crude picture here..arrow represents relative wind direction, slash marks are the exaggerated dihedral of the wings, m'kay??

---> \ (positive angle of attack)
---> / (negative angle of attack)

Pretend you're viewing the plane from the tail and it's in a slip to the left, you will get a right roll. Check the ball to see which way you are slipping. If it's left of center, you will roll right and vise versa. Stepping on the ball (applying left rudder) should center it and stop the rolling tendency. Only a very small amount of rudder is needed.


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Andy Bush
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posted 11-03-2000 04:35 PM     Profile for Andy Bush   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wells

Thanks!

Is this why the planes in this sim act in this manner?

Now, I admit, I have not flown any WW2 aircraft (other than a Piper Cub!). But, of the others that I have flown, none roll back out of a bank. As I understand it, dihedral was intended to be a stability feature, ie, help keep the wings level...not a feature intended to recover from a normal banked turn.

Odd...

Andy


Posts: 595 | From: St Louis, Mo | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 11-03-2000 05:08 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Andy,

In a turn, there is always a small sideslip angle that produces the yaw rate. In airplane design, it's a matter of balancing the dihedral angle with vertical tail surface area. This kind of stability is called 'spiral' stability. A plane with too much dihedral or not enough tail surface is said to be unstable spirally, in that it will roll back level in a dutch roll when you try and bank it to turn. Likewise, too little dihedral or too much tail area and the plane will steepen it's bank and go into a spiral dive if unchecked by the pilot.


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Seawolf
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posted 11-03-2000 05:21 PM     Profile for Seawolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Use a little rudder to cooridinate your turns guys. I fly with realism set to high and this forces me to "Fly" the plane. Watch that little level ball on the artificial horizen, that's what it's there for. Cooridinated turns.
Posts: 1322 | From: Clearwater, Fl. USA | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Andy Bush
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posted 11-03-2000 05:52 PM     Profile for Andy Bush   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, I appreciate the aero lesson...I'm a poli sci major and I don't always understand all that rocket science!

But this I do understand.

After 33 years and 12000+ hours of flying...USAF fighters and civilian airliners...not a single aircraft that I flew did I ever have to make a rudder input ONCE the turn had been established.

I have noticed the turn and slip ball in CFS2. My question still remains...is this an accurate representation of how these aircraft flew in real life. If so, it is certainly different from anything I have known.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 11-03-2000).]


Posts: 595 | From: St Louis, Mo | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 11-03-2000 07:42 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Andy,

Are you referring to my flight models or the default ones? I tend to agree with you and I felt that WAY too much rudder was needed in the default planes. That is something I've tried to address with my models.


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Andy Bush
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posted 11-03-2000 08:21 PM     Profile for Andy Bush   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wells

Actually, I'm not sure...I don't have much time on the sim and am still exploring the various types of missions.

I just installed your 1.6 patch this morning...then I noticed this tendency to roll out while in a turn...I was practicing landings and had to fight the roll while turning towards the carrier or field. So I tried several a/c and found the same thing.

Also, I thought the rudder requirement was way too sensitive on takeoff...at first I thought my rudder set up was bad...I use TM Elite pedals that work well in other sims. So I checked the calibration and that looked OK. As it is, I'm all over the place on take off, regardless of how slowly I add the power in. Kinda squirrely!

So...bottom line...I don't have enough info to say that your patch is anything, one way or the other. I'm hoping it's not...I appreciate your work in making the sim better.

Andy


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fodder
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posted 11-03-2000 10:44 PM     Profile for fodder   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ripsnort:

You are kidding me... Your the CO of the Death Rattlers now?

I used to fly in that squad under Stigler.

What happened to him?

-Fodder (Seattle, WA)


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gatt
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posted 11-04-2000 01:44 AM     Profile for gatt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hiya all,

AFAIK old Stig is in charge of a JG in WarBirds. We flew togheter in JG27 under Kats command.

Ah, dont trust in Rip, hes an HOG driver

------------------
GATT
4 Stormo Caccia - Knights
Macchi C.202's sting (1,9MByte film)


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Kraut
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posted 11-04-2000 06:37 AM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Really appreciating your input here. I find this stuff interesting. I think it's part of my scale modeling fondness.
When I take off from the dirt strip mit a Hog, I too find the rudder a little oversensitive as well. From my RC modeling days, carrier AC were more touchy with rudder input but more stable than land kites in the yaw plane. I just chaulked it up the the larger size of fin/rudder combination.
This falling off in turns. I find that the falling off for me is towards the low side. Not as pronounced as CFSI by any stretch but still some there. In flying models, a left bank required rt. rudder to keep the nose level. On these two sims, when I step on the ball in a bank, it really falls to the low wing. Again, not as much as CFSI.
Just some obsevations but I really don't know what is more accurate. I guess I would like to see a situation where if I fly a certain kite on any & all flight sims, they all responsed the same or very close to it. It kinda confuses me why this can't be accomplished.
I read an article not that long ago(4mo.) by a scribe who never flown a WWII flight sim before but here he was listing pros & cons about this certain WWII sim. What was he using for a measuring stick & who would give him the job of the write up? I guess we still have a way to go in the management areas.
Enough from me. Not bitchin, just wasting space!
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Andy Bush
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posted 11-04-2000 08:20 AM     Profile for Andy Bush   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wells

I wanted to double-check the rudder sensitivity so I did a clean reinstall without your patch.

Now the rudder sensitivity during takeoff is gone, but the bank peculiarities are still there.

Here's what I'm trying to do.

I want to put the aircraft into a medium bank (about 30 degrees) and hold level flight. I want to do this with the stick centered...no aileron input once the bank angle is established.

To do this, I need to feed in rudder to center the ball. Once the ball is centered, the ailerons can be returned to neutral, and the aircraft will maintain its bank angle.

I went thru my aero text and found that this is in line with turn stability theory, particularly in aircraft with 'long' fuselages...apparently the effect diminishes as fuselage length shortens. And the author mentions that this roll characteristic is minor and may even be unseen by some pilots.

OK...so this flight characteristic is backed up by academic data. I guess I must be in that category of pilots that the author references!! Because in the aircraft I have flown (and continue to fly), this characteristic seems to be absent.

I never claimed to be the next Lindbergh...now I know why!!

So...at this point, it does seem your FM rudder response may be a bit overmodeled. What do you think?

Andy


Posts: 595 | From: St Louis, Mo | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 11-04-2000 10:02 AM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm going over all stability and control issues right now. It's time consuming, but the next update should address a few things. I think stalls and spins will be better as well. For yaw control, it should take longer for the plane to yaw with rudder than it would take for it to center itself once the rudder is centered.
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curlytop
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posted 11-04-2000 10:39 AM     Profile for curlytop   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Will the use of these new fm's be allowed in restricted online games?

Posts: 76 | From: Jackson, TN, USA | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 11-04-2000 06:45 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Another thing to consider is whether the plane is descending or climbing. In a descending turn, the bank angle will become less and in a climbing turn, it will tend to increase without pilot input.
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Kraut
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posted 11-05-2000 08:24 AM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Herr Wells, is there a way of moving the FMs in CFSI over to CFSII? Not that I want a 109 to fly like a Zero, but have them more "stable" like in CFSII?
Not implying that you do this, but just wondering.
There's a DL for CFSI that's called The Upgrade II. Do you know anything about this?
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kraut
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posted 11-05-2000 10:26 AM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
This is about the 109e.
Take off.
"20 deg. flap
Hold hold stick forward until tail off ground & then just fly off, watching for dropping of left wing".
Landing.
"Stalling speeds on glide are 75 mph flaps up & 61 mph. flaps down. Lowering flaps makes ailerons feel heavier & slightly less effective, & causes a marked nose down pitching moment, readily corrected owing to the juxtaposition of trim & flap operating wheels. If engine is opened up to simulate a baulked landing with flaps & gear down, the plane becomes tail heavy".
Just some quotes from the book Messerschmitt BF109 @ War.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
TG
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posted 11-05-2000 10:53 AM     Profile for TG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I dono As a newbie to CFS sims I put the original FMs back so that I could get comfy with understanding them first. (right or wrong)

It seems that to minimize this tendency of the nose to roll right in a left bank requires left rudder but the trick is to apply just a touch.
I had to reduce my rudder sensitivity almost to <5% and dead band to almost zero.
With those I can at least keep up with the battle and take off/land the plane reasonably well.
Heh this is just the corsair, which is supposed to be easier to fly than others.


Posts: 359 | From: SOmerville, NJ USA | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Andy Bush
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posted 11-05-2000 01:07 PM     Profile for Andy Bush   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
TG

I'll have to look at my rudder settings...maybe they are too sensitive.

The roll you are talking about is my question. While it seems to be verifiable in an aero academic context, I'd like to know if the planes of that era required that kind of rudder coordination. I hate to call it 'coordination', since that term to me has always been applied to rudder input when rolling into and out of turns, not when in turns.

I suppose we need to find someone currrently flying these things and ask him.

Andy


Posts: 595 | From: St Louis, Mo | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

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