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Author Topic: damage anywhere = no roll ?
Michael 2
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posted 10-20-2000 12:56 AM     Profile for Michael 2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've seen this mentioned many times, but I think the topic deserves its own thread. How many people think the reduced roll rate every time some totally unrelated part of the airplane is hit (i.e. not wings, airlerons, aileron control cables, etc.) should head the list of potential patch items? My engine is hit and I can't roll? This is ruining game play for me and it's a shame to see what in many respects is a great sim spoiled by such an inexplicable flaw.

[This message has been edited by Michael 2 (edited 10-20-2000).]


Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
slugged
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posted 10-20-2000 01:17 AM     Profile for slugged   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes it should be fixed. I ran into some aircraft parts off of the Zero that I shot down and got the "Your engine was damaged" message and then I noticed that my plane would not roll. Whad up wit dat?

Also another bug that I found was on mission 8 where you start out with the wrong loadout. You will not complete the mission unless you go to the Player Aircraft and change your loadout to Guns and Long Range. The funny thing about this is that none of your wingman get drop tanks but somehow they are able to complete the mission without running out of fuel.

slugged


Posts: 152 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Pasha
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posted 10-20-2000 01:27 AM     Profile for Pasha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Funny you say that, I had just metioned it on usenet.

I don't have messages turned on, I just realized it was anything kills it... hehe

Pasha


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Khasra
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posted 10-20-2000 02:48 AM     Profile for Khasra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Exactly the same!

Whenever the plane takes any damage it starts to be handled as a battlecruiser.


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Blond_Knight
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posted 10-20-2000 06:07 AM     Profile for Blond_Knight     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I noticed this too, is this something we can fix by editing the .DP files?

------------------
See-Decide-Attack-Reverse


Posts: 1093 | From: Richmond Va - Capital of the Confederacy | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Doc Halliday
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posted 10-20-2000 08:43 AM     Profile for Doc Halliday     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey, that's the standard M$ damage for you. CFS1 did a similar thing as well. Sucks if you're flying with hard FM, all you can do is use rudder to hope to turn, which leads to stalls/spins every minute.
Don't even start about the dogfights over 10 enemy destroyers and the enemy a/c NEVER get touched yet you get riddled....

Posts: 121 | From: Syracuse, NY | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
riordan
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posted 10-20-2000 09:14 AM     Profile for riordan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I agree. Anyone got the support email for this title?

riordan
139


Posts: 202 | From: SA,TX,US | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
ProzacPain
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posted 10-20-2000 03:42 PM     Profile for ProzacPain   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
ive not noticed that happening too often.
Usually i take a few bullet holes but my roll rate is not affected.
Every once in awhile it will be the first thing that happens when i get hit, but not all the time.
Play the game for longer and you will see more variation.
Did it ever occur to you that it is very easy to damage and aileron? Check and see if the bullet holes aren't on your wings.
I've never had the slow roll rate thing happen unless i have bullet holes in my wings..
Its annoying when it happens yes, but it teaches you to not get shot!

Plenty of times i've been hit and instead of a slow roll rate, ill get a very quick roll rate, to one side...where i have to have constant stick pressure to one side to avoid a constant barrel roll into the ground


Posts: 68 | From: Jacksonville FL USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Michael 2
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posted 10-20-2000 04:20 PM     Profile for Michael 2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'll have to try checking the wings for damage in the external view. Several times I've had damage messages that refer only to the engine, cowling or oil resevoir followed by not being able to roll. I suppose it's possible that the damage messages are incomplete.
Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
luv2sim
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posted 10-20-2000 06:44 PM     Profile for luv2sim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
i have noticed this as well.

yes, it may be true that the text messages are not all inclusive, but at the same time, it seems improbable that a few bullet holes would produce such a severe drop in roll rate. also, i and others have noted that, even when you take engine hits, the engine never seems to overheat or malfunction whatsoever.

this needs fixing.

l2s


Posts: 77 | From: Dallas, Texas, USA | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Red Wolf
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posted 10-20-2000 08:35 PM     Profile for Red Wolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wow! Finally everybody agrees on this one. It's happening way too often. It would be cool if the plane starts rolling left or right by itself and you have to compensate or if we would just lose a little bit of roll but it's very frustrating as it is. I don't mind losing in battle but this problem forces me to hit that ESC key immediately or wait for someone to just shoot me down.
Posts: 45 | From: Plantation, FL | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Michael 2
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posted 10-21-2000 12:44 AM     Profile for Michael 2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OK, I looked at this again and I think Prozac Pain has something. After my "nose structure" was hit by flak and the roll rate fell off, I paused and went to the external view and saw my wings were liberally peppered with shrapnel hits. It may be a little over-modelled, but I guess I can live with it. Next -- REMOVE THE YELLOW BRACKETS!
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Vancouver
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posted 10-21-2000 01:41 AM     Profile for Vancouver     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The plane doesn't lose roll response every time it is damaged. It only happens if the wings are damaged and even then I'm not convinced that it happens every time.

I've just finished a quick combat session in which my F6F was hit several times in the engine and fuselage and didn't suffer any degradation in roll performance. Later, I was hit in the wing and the roll performance was affected.

Engine damage effects don't seem to be modeled particularly well. I don't notice much, if any, performance impact from a damaged engine. It starts making horribly clunking noises but that's about it. I have yet to have a damaged engine fail on me. I haven't checked to see whether the engine temp, manifold pressure etc are affected, since I'm usually in the middle of a scrap by that point.

Red Wolf,
I have had the plane damaged such that it was yawing considerably to one side or the other. In order to keep it flying, I had to use both opposite aileron and rudder. I have auto-rudder turned off in the settings, all flight/difficulty levels at max.


Posts: 147 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
slugged
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posted 10-21-2000 02:11 AM     Profile for slugged   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yeah your probably right about easily damaging the ailerons. After all they represent probably 5% of the total wing surface area and a hit anywhere on the wing will damage the aileron. Yeah that sounds perfectly reasonable.

I've posted this twice now on other threads, but I got the "your engine was damaged" message after I ran into some debris of an aircraft that I had just shot down. This resulted in the reduced roll rate. Now I ask you how were my ailerons damaged when clearly any damage would be limited to the leading edge of the wings? It's broke, fix it! Nuff said.

Oh yeah, I just remembered reading an interview prior to release of the game where the guy said that aileron damage was very frequent. This statement was made by the interviewee (MS employee) and not the interviewer. Clearly this must have been brought up by beta testers and his comment was really a forwarning.

slugged

[This message has been edited by slugged (edited 10-21-2000).]


Posts: 152 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
luv2sim
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posted 10-21-2000 12:00 PM     Profile for luv2sim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
i still doubt that a few holes in the wings would cause that severe of a drop in roll rate. hell, the things move like molasses with just a few dings.

engine damage modeling simply doesn't exist, from what i've seen.

these are not show stoppers, but it's sure a pain in the ass when you get hit a few times and your roll rate plummets into the cellar and you are pretty much through dogfighting for that mission.

one related thing that i wish was different is the fact that you end up playing the same damn mission over and over until you "win"...not my idea of a campaign.

l2s


Posts: 77 | From: Dallas, Texas, USA | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Malhavoc
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posted 10-21-2000 12:31 PM     Profile for Malhavoc   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I was wondering what type of control device the people experiencing no roll are using. I use the keyboard and I don't experience this effect. Last mission I flew, my plane took 3 violent flak hits causing my plane to shake off course. My plane also took about seven minor hits to engine and other surfaces. After all this my plane still had roll. I have flown many missions like this one and I always have roll. The only times I lose air roll is when my wing is completly shot off.

Also, do you guys find that this is happening with all planes or just a few. I am not sure about all them, but I know that the wildcat maintains its roll through thick and thin. (for me anyway).

[This message has been edited by Malhavoc (edited 10-21-2000).]


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Red Wolf
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posted 10-21-2000 02:02 PM     Profile for Red Wolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Malhavoc, I am sorry but if your wing got shot-off, you should get a lot of roll!! LOL!!
Posts: 45 | From: Plantation, FL | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Malhavoc
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posted 10-21-2000 02:16 PM     Profile for Malhavoc   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry Red Wolf, I just meant with my wing gone, my stick had no effect on roll(obviously). Other than this extreme case, I always have control of roll (ie move stick left, right cause movement in ailerons on wings, cause plane to roll) The people above posted that they lose control of roll after a few flak bursts. I don't experience this. Don't really know what you found funny about that.
Posts: 7 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Michael 2
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posted 10-21-2000 02:34 PM     Profile for Michael 2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
When we say "no roll" we just mean the roll rate is greatly reduced. Not literally no roll ability at all.
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Casey
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posted 11-27-2000 08:37 AM     Profile for Casey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I had to bring this one up again, now that we've had a month to fly this one.

The "roll-damage" issue is quite frustrating. Last night, I fought my way through a long battle in which my Corsairs were outnumbered. I used nice, disciplined boom n' zoom until there were more blue planes in the sky than grey ones and ZAP- one hit cripples my controls.

I know it's very possible to suffer control damage. If the fire is comng from behind, it seems more likely your elevator or rudder would be hit than your engine, right? But I've been keeping track and more than half the tme, even a few 30 cal rounds force me to bail out because I can't turn at all.

We've all read about guys bringing shot up aircraft (especially big, tough Corsairs and P-47s) back home with chunks of wing or tail shot off. I've limped home in EAW with various damage.

All I ask is that MS could give us a little 200K patch to reduce the frequency of this annoying damage result. Haven't jet sims been patched because an AIM-9 was too accurate, or an Atoll was flying too far?

IMHO.

Good hunting.


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curlytop
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posted 11-27-2000 09:24 AM     Profile for curlytop   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In 80-90 percent of my missions I will see "Flak hit your nose structure" or "Flak hit your engine". I see no nearby flak burst, hear no 'thunk', and feel no shake on the forcefeedback stick. But from that moment on it takes at least 5 seconds to roll into a 90 degree bank, and the same time to roll out. Loads of fun

Posts: 76 | From: Jackson, TN, USA | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
SpinDry
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posted 11-27-2000 09:33 AM     Profile for SpinDry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Same crapola here. I tried the "Evict the Neighbors" mission in a P-38. Warped into the island airspace, and was taking flak hits almost before the screen finished updating. Almost no roll rate from then on. With constant hard ruddering I was able to keep it somewhat level. This happened three straight times, and a promising mission is gonna get changed if I ever fly it again.

Maybe if I bumped up the roll input from the rudders ... but then you'd be unable to correct for it when you do need them for yaw.

It's just plain broken.


Posts: 296 | From: Rome, NY, USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Holliday
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posted 11-27-2000 11:19 AM     Profile for Holliday   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
And to those that doubt this is a problem I ask; why is it my rudders always work, no matter how hard I am hit? It seems to me that rudder damage is just as likely, but I have never once lost rudder control. Face it, if your little old grandma in Iowa stubs her toe, you lose roll rate. If a enemy pilot yells loudly at you in passing, you lose roll rate.

[This message has been edited by Holliday (edited 11-27-2000).]


Posts: 139 | From: Wilmington NC USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
H. Flower
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posted 11-27-2000 11:22 AM     Profile for H. Flower   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rollnot is Bug! folk,


I disagree. Though I agree that battle damage manifests persistantly in roll deficiency, I won't presume that this should not be so. Generally, damage messaging scrolls too rapidly to be a useful reference - "Your Engine Has Been Damaged", indeed, but what spake that preceeding crimson flash? Personally, I've yet to experience roll deficiency that was not indexed by some extreme of visible wing damage; and I have experienced damage to structure not necessarily essential to rate of roll - even wing structure(?) - which certainly did not effect rate of roll. However accurate, roll deficiency seems coherent to me.

Of course, I may be perceiving precisely what I insist upon perceiving. But then so might everyone else.

Pitty that relevant MS types don't (can't?) contribute to such discussion.


H. Flower


Posts: 29 | From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Storm
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posted 11-27-2000 11:31 AM     Profile for Storm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've noticed a tremendous amount of engine damage after sustaining hits there. I get a noticable drop in RPM and power, plus a very loud banging sound from my damaged pistons. The roll thing, hasnt affected me as I just figured I'd taken alot of hits, but will pay more attention to it next time. See ya.

Storm


Posts: 606 | From: Crestview, Florida USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
curlytop
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posted 11-27-2000 11:59 AM     Profile for curlytop   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My engine gets damaged, loses rpm and sounds like a pair of sneakers in a dryer, often with no loss of maneuverability

But have lost roll many, many times when the one and only hit was "flak hit your nose structure" .. Nothing before or after that. I hit pause and check outside for damage. Maybe one small hole in the nose somewhere, but absolutely no other damage to the plane.

It may not happen with everybody, but it surely happens to me, and some others anyway. But even if it was only a problem to me, it's still a bug and MS should fix it for me


Posts: 76 | From: Jackson, TN, USA | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged

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