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Author Topic: Where can I grab those more accurate FM's?
Ajax
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posted 10-17-2000 06:35 PM     Profile for Ajax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi,

Just read about more accurate flight models which are available for CFS2, but could somebody point me to them? While the default models seem pretty good I still want them to be as realistic as possible

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-Ajax out

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"Je suis un Canadien québécois, un Français canadien-français. Un Américain du Nord français. Un francophone québécois canadien. On est des Canadiens américains francophones."-Elvis Gratton
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"You always use violence. I should've ordered glutinous rice chicken" -Anonymous


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SR
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posted 10-17-2000 06:42 PM     Profile for SR   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
http://www.combatsim.com/ubb/Forum62/HTML/000202.html

Follow the links , he posted on the AGW forum .

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Airbuddha - Not cool? Unpopular with the ladies? No problem. Bash Microsoft, chicks will dig ya.


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Ajax
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posted 10-17-2000 06:49 PM     Profile for Ajax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks mate.
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Airbuddha
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posted 10-17-2000 06:54 PM     Profile for Airbuddha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yeah, I should grab those too. Wells says that Microsoft rushed out their flight models, so they must be really really bad.

How long did it take him to put these together after CFS2 was released?


Airbuddha - Since I started bashing CFS2, I not only don't need tape on my glasses anymore, I don't need glasses!


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SR
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posted 10-17-2000 07:07 PM     Profile for SR   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
sorry double post

[This message has been edited by SR (edited 10-17-2000).]


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SR
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posted 10-17-2000 07:09 PM     Profile for SR   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey bud , was only joking with you about the Microsoft stuff . I don't plan on flying online so don't matter if the files stay correct or changed .

I left my CFS1 files the same till just last two weeks , first I used the one by BD from your P47 off your site . Then I got some for the flighttest site of GreggyP's .

I did post about the cheats and said if you plan on flying online better not be changing them because the only way to be reasonably sure of a fair game is to restrict it in the settings .

You would have to know Wells from the AH BB board to trust him , thats why I wrote use them if you are looking for something like that .

But I do love my new sig thanks BTW

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Airbuddha - Not cool? Unpopular with the ladies? No problem. Bash Microsoft, chicks will dig ya.


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Wells
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posted 10-17-2000 07:13 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ok guys, I put up a new version that should fix the yaw problems some were having. I also added the Val's flight model. The P-39 and Ki-43 were added in version 1.2.

AirBudda,

Yes, it hasn't taken me long to blitz 3 versions in 3 days! hehe I'm on vacation and I have put the time in, I assure you. I don't sleep! I promise, I'll slow down now!

Flight Models for CFS2 V1.3


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Airbuddha
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posted 10-17-2000 07:39 PM     Profile for Airbuddha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Whoah Ajax! Back on up a little now pawdna. Are you sure you want to replace all the flight models of your brand spankin new game with the ones that come from here? General 6's Page of Home

You guys that are praising these new flight models, are you reading what you write? I see comments like: It's easier to fly. It's easier to land... umm, ok. That's your criteria for accuracy in flight dynamics?

You don't trust Microsoft's flight sim developers, but you trust the flight models that come from this page? It took him all of 3 days to make them.General 6's Page of Home

SR, please let me know if that's a joke so I'll know whether to start laughing or start looking for your house.

Airbuddha


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kverdon
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posted 10-17-2000 07:39 PM     Profile for kverdon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Wells!!!!!

Here is a question for you. I saw an aircraft.cfg files in the Aircraft Folders. It has setting for elevator/aileron/rudder effectiveness. I set these to 0.8 for the Betty and it seem to have calmed them down a bit. Does this really have an effect or am I imagining things.

Thanks for the work you're doing. Now if we could only edit the weapons profiles and turn down the Betty's firepower a tad.

Kevin


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Wells
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posted 10-17-2000 07:53 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Airbuddha,

What did I ever do to you? I have never made an attempt at maintaining a website, as you can see! That was something a friend of mine cooked up for me 3 years ago and frankly, I wasn't impressed, which is why I thought I got rid of all the pages on my server.

Have you even tried my models? Am I stepping into your territory or something?? I respect the work you have done with your models, they are excellent! I see no reason for you to attack me, since you don't even know me and you think that's some kind of reason to judge me. In any case, I just lost some respect..not that you'd care!

[This message has been edited by Wells (edited 10-17-2000).]


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Seawolf
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posted 10-17-2000 08:52 PM     Profile for Seawolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I agree AB,
I think what is going on is most of the people are finding it a challenge to fly and fight in these aircraft, MUCH LIKE IT WAS IN WWII!,so they are eager for an easy out.
This has been my biggest complaint with CFS is the fact the people can't handle learning tactics and all that goes into actually flying a WWII combat aircraft so they must get a modified flight model to gain an edge.
I find it hard to believe that any of you in here can personally varify what is real and what is not. I'll take programmers doing years of research and confering with actual WWII pilots then some wannabe spending 3 days with a reference book.
That's all this sim needs is more Mach3 Corsairs!

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Airbuddha
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posted 10-17-2000 08:57 PM     Profile for Airbuddha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello Wells,

Nah, you're right. You never did anything to me. Your flight models may be better than anything Microsoft could achieve.

I rightly or wrongly perceived arrogance in the tone of your post regarding your flight models vs the default models.

My mistake was taking it upon myself to hold you accountable for your claims. It's none of my business.

It's none of my business whether you attempt to make 100% accurate flight models, or if you want to make NASCAR Fighters with every plane having identical FM's.

It's a character flaw that I'm full aware. I perceive arrogance, and I end up saying things that are better left un-said.

Thank you for your comments about my planes, but I'm full aware of their shortcomings and how poor they are in several areas, but I'm trying to do better.

Regards, and apologies, Roger Dial


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Airbuddha
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posted 10-17-2000 09:06 PM     Profile for Airbuddha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Seawolf,

I reckon they're fine for anyone who never plans to fly online against other people, or everyone is using the exact same files in a multiplayer game.

I do however know what you mean about mach3 Corsairs and so does anyone else who's ever flown CFS on the ZONE.

My knee jerk reaction (I was wrong) was based on that.

Regards, Airbuddha


Posts: 430 | From: Slipper Gut, WV, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 10-17-2000 09:06 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wow, sorry I appear arrogant. I dont' mean to...I'm sure anyone that knows me would think that's the last thing I would be! I'm actually a pretty quiet, shy person, IRL! I just like to communicate directly and to the point, I guess...not as much typing that way!

[This message has been edited by Wells (edited 10-17-2000).]


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Airbuddha
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posted 10-17-2000 09:15 PM     Profile for Airbuddha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ok, maybe we can start this one over

[This message has been edited by Airbuddha (edited 10-17-2000).]


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wjwhitebuffalo
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posted 10-17-2000 09:16 PM     Profile for wjwhitebuffalo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Wells, I am thinking about trying your FM's but am wondering if changing them might in some way change the way they reacted when al is flying them in campaigns.
BTW I am glad what both you and AB are doing to enhance this new sim. I enjoy tinkering with sims almost as much as flying them.(almost) I hope both of you keep up the great work. I just do not want to change how they work when flying campaigns offline.

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Wells
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posted 10-17-2000 09:25 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry AB,

I hadn't read your message when I posted that, hence the revision! Man, this is just getting messier! heheh

quote:
Hey Wells, I am thinking about trying your FM's but am wondering if changing them might in some way change the way they reacted
when al is flying them in campaigns.

Nah, I doubt it. I didn't change that much, really...just little things mostly. Check out the readme file before you unzip them, if you try them. Everything that I changed is in there.


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Airbuddha
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posted 10-17-2000 09:30 PM     Profile for Airbuddha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wells,

I'm sure you're not. I was basing my opinion on your writings at the WB message board.

That was a bad thing to do because everyone seems to do it.

The X board bashes Y sim, etc. Very few are actually militant about it, but there are a few.

Regards, Airbuddha - Don't make me quote Rodney King!


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Ajax
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posted 10-17-2000 09:34 PM     Profile for Ajax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Whoaa...everyone calm down please...thanks

Gee, Airbuddha, get over it, will you? Yes, I like this sim. Good enough for ya? MS did a great job with the FM's, but even if I can't really perceive the difference I want to try out what I've been told is the most accurate model, and that's my decision, not yours. If I don't like it I'll switch back, that's all.

Seawolf, not sure if you're referring to me but I hope you see my point. I've studied WWII airpower since I was eight or so, and realism is the most important factor for me. I'll probably only fly offline anyway so I'll leave it at that.

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-Ajax out

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"Je suis un Canadien québécois, un Français canadien-français. Un Américain du Nord français. Un francophone québécois canadien. On est des Canadiens américains francophones."-Elvis Gratton
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"You always use violence. I should've ordered glutinous rice chicken" -Anonymous


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Nath [BDP]
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posted 10-17-2000 09:36 PM     Profile for Nath [BDP]   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Want a real WW2 flight sim with the most accurate flight model out there?
www.hitechcreations.com

kthx


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ArgonV
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posted 10-17-2000 09:40 PM     Profile for ArgonV   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wells, the Val could use a Flight Model Overhaul... Its TOO generic! NOt realistic at all. I cant even stall the thing when I fly around in a circle....

P.S. In your next version of the Val (If you choose to accecpt your mission ) Please add the hook and the speed brakes in (I know for a fact that the brakes on the bottom of the wings work. I put in an old CFS1 Kate flight model and hit the spolier/speed brake key and they folded down!)

Cheers!


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ArgonV
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posted 10-17-2000 09:52 PM     Profile for ArgonV   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
P.S. And the Oscar flight model needs major work too!
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Ajax
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posted 10-17-2000 09:52 PM     Profile for Ajax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yup, Nath, and 1.05 looks grooovy...naval ops, Hellcat and...AVENGER!!

Of course, that 30 $/month rate (I don't even wanna know what it's in CAN ) leaves me shooting drones, still...the feeling of flight, I must say, is the best I've seen.


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Airbuddha
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posted 10-17-2000 10:14 PM     Profile for Airbuddha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ok Ajax. I think we tidied things up before you came back in the room lad.

Feel better now?

Airbuddha - <blows whistle> Ajax. Fifteen yards for piling on.


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von_M
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posted 10-17-2000 10:22 PM     Profile for von_M   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That's about $45 CND, depending on the exchange and other variables. !

Believe me, I've thought about it, but for that price I could get DSL, and bask in the warmth of near instantaneous porn.

Joking!

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Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.. -From the Odes of Horace.


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Wells
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posted 10-17-2000 10:32 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Argon,

I'd like to have the planes stalling at about 1/2 to 2/3 stick deflection, but before I make that drastic of a change, I need to investigate whether the AI will be able to handle it. I think all the planes were a bit conservative in the stall department. I didn't mess much with that (yet). Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it!


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Kraut
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posted 10-17-2000 10:50 PM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Talking about FMs.
The first is the take off. Torque, length of run, a flap setting as per stock, just to name a few.
Landings. Pitch of plane per notch per specs, drag of flaps, CG of gear up or down, & gear drag. These are what I start to judge FMs on. Usually, if they can't cut it with the majorities of these, they're usually failing in actual flight & or combat manouvers. Herr Wells is getting closer but I would still like to see more drag on the gear. As it is now, 1 notch of flap has more drag than the fully extended gear on the F4U. That is not correct by any stretch of the imagination. It might be just a small thing but when these basics are reasonably close to actual visually performing, I start to trust & have patience in the rest of the FMs. One step @ a time, so, IMO, lets get the take offs & landings down. When gears & flaps go up or down, have the plane perform as the directions from manuals indicate to pilots what's to be expected. Example: A 109G was found to be better @ landing with 20 degrees of flap. Also, a bit of power on as in most WWII birds. If a little too fast, more flap ws applied. This is really apperent on P51s. Over the edge of runway, flaps full down, & doing 90 Knots IAS. The last portion of flaps was to act as an air brake. One last thing. The speed of gear & flap deployement is also nice to have modeled. Long time on P51 & a bicycle chain on 109s. Spits, either up or down, just 2. I still trust WBs & AH for such & I base a lot of my comparisons on these two. I've grown to trust them & their level playing fields as well.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!
PS. I just don't want to see the BS on FMs as CFSI came to grief with.
PPS. The landings & take offs are still top notch on CFSI & II. Little improvements would make it even better. IMHO!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kraut
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posted 10-17-2000 11:05 PM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My bills were 150.00 to 200.00 plus per mo. on WBs. I got kinda good but started losing weight because our food purchases suffered.

FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
von_M
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posted 10-17-2000 11:13 PM     Profile for von_M   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kraut:
My bills were 150.00 to 200.00 plus per mo. on WBs. I got kinda good but started losing weight because our food purchases suffered.

FWIW,
Good Hunting!

OUCH!

Most I ever spent on an online sim was back in the good ole' days of Air Warrior for DOS. Haven't played a pay-to-play sim since.

$150-200.. I guess money is made easier down there in Kitchener.

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Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.. -From the Odes of Horace.


Posts: 459 | From: London, Ontario. Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
von_M
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posted 10-17-2000 11:16 PM     Profile for von_M   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Oops, forgot to add the obligatory at the end.

There.

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Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.. -From the Odes of Horace.


Posts: 459 | From: London, Ontario. Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wells
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posted 10-17-2000 11:22 PM     Profile for Wells   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Right Kraut...that stuff involves more calculation. Here's what I get for the F4u...

Main wheels ~ 0.2 sq m (frontal area, Cd = 0.5)

Front gear doors ~ 0.4 sqm (Cd = 1.0)

Total ~ 0.6 sq m (equivalent flat plate area)

Comparing that to the flat plate area of the whole aircraft where Cd ~ 0.02, using the wing area (29.19 sq m), I get about 0.6! So the gear doubles the drag and should have about the same value as the zero-lift drag coefficient in the file. How much drag the open well makes and the side doors is not easy to figure, but it will add.

Likewise for the flaps, at 50 degrees deflection, they are presenting about 2 sq m in flat plate area, so flap drag should be roughly 3-4 times as much as the gear or zero-lift (I assume the induced portion is calculated internally). Those are typical relationships for a taildragger and can be used as a guide. I kept the P-38's flap drag up at 180 because they increase the wing area by 13%, but I reduced most of the others to 150 or so. I think they were all at 180 to start with, and all the gear drag was 20, so I doubled that in most cases.


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Kraut
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posted 10-17-2000 11:41 PM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Oh right, easier in Kit. NOT according to Frau Graber!

Herr Wells, I see you've upped the drag on gear from stock 40 to 60. Your flap is still @ 150 which seems okay, maybe a little much. I still feel the gear could be raised to 100. This setting makes a major improvement on the F4U, IMO! Please keep up the great work. Not to make it easier, but more correct.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!
PS. I really hope you don't think I'm picking holes in your work. Your doing a great job & I appreciate it. I was actually thinking of taking this sim back but now, because of your & ABs efforts, I might just keep it.
PPS. I've noticed that when the Rudder Control Factor was set to =250, the rudder respones are more stable. All still there in their glory but not so dicey.

[This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 10-18-2000).]


Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Pasha
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posted 10-18-2000 06:11 AM     Profile for Pasha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, I hope the yaw stability is fixed, not that I'll ever use them, but I just don't like taking part in a message board about a sim, when I am the only one left flying that sim..

Different flight models in every box!

=(

The ones that come with the game only require fine adjustments to stick deflection.

(the betty could use a little nudge)


Pasha

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-If time machines were possible, they would have been prolific, since the begining of time.


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Pasha
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posted 10-18-2000 06:20 AM     Profile for Pasha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
-MS did a great job with the FM's, but even if I can't really perceive the difference I want to try out what I've been told is the most accurate model, and that's my decision, not yours. If I don't like it I'll switch back, that's all.-


Ajax, what you think, and realistic DON'T HAVE A COMMON MODIFIER.

Just because you 'like' something, doesn't make it real.

Have you ever flown a plane before? I have.

Ever dive a plane before? I have.

Ever stall a plane before? I have.

You can't fool me by just uploading something.

hehe... sheesh.

Pasha


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-If time machines were possible, they would have been prolific, since the begining of time.


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Kraut
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posted 10-18-2000 07:20 AM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Pasha ol topper. Is that a rattlesnake attitude I detect. Lots o slams but little on substance. Substance meaning to add to, not detract from.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Pasha
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posted 10-18-2000 08:11 AM     Profile for Pasha   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
No, I won't discuss this topic anymore, you guys do what you want.

I'm bust catering to someones mean, nasty emails.

|=o|


Pasha
-but i swear! i am researching!-

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-If time machines were possible, they would have been prolific, since the begining of time.


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letterboy1
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posted 10-18-2000 08:19 AM     Profile for letterboy1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
. . . .ever designed a plane?
Have you ever built a plane?
Have you ever crashed a plane?
Have you ever bought a plane?
Have you ever sold a plane?
Have you ever stolen a plane?
Have you ever painted a plane?
Have you ever repaired a plane?
Have you . . . .

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"You know what they call a Quarter Pounder in France? A Royale with Cheese."


Posts: 360 | From: Columbus, GA USA | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Kraut
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posted 10-18-2000 09:08 AM     Profile for Kraut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hehe!!! No I haven't. I don't expect the ones who improved on AW1,2,3, WBs, AH, or the ECAO 1.4 in EAW did either. But I really tip my hats to them with mucho respect. Just let the FM boys/girls, of which I'm not one, do their thing in striving for better FMs. If it wasen't for them in the above mentioned sims, we'd still have the FMs of AOE, AOTP, early ones in FS, some of the ones in CFSI, or LC, just to mention a few. I think WBs has been voted the best online sim for the last 3 or 4 years. One of the reasons being, is their FMs.
Hey, keep up the good work & keep posting the opinions. When the dust settles, maybe the principals of Darwin will apply.
FWIW,
Good Hunting!

Posts: 754 | From: Kitchener Ont. Can. | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Spin Doctor
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posted 10-18-2000 09:46 AM     Profile for Spin Doctor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I just tried Well's v1.3 FM for the Hellcat and Zero and found them to be a nice improvement. As someone once wrote, the guys who originally flew these things were not constantly fighting to keep them in the air, so I feel that his models reduces the B**lS**t factor of the seriously twitchy stock FM. The changes didn't feel drastic, but they did feel right. Proper flap and gear drag is a big improvement and it gives you the expected responses on take offs and landings.
There was no excessive yawing at any speed and I had a nice time with them. You can still get yourself in stall trouble, but since MS didn't bother to provide any type of visual (buffeting) stall warning, it's nice that the stalls now happen in a more expected manner. You do get the "stall" warning which is about as useful at the oil pressure light they used to put in cars. By the time you get it, it's way too late.

At any rate, I'm not prepared to debate the merits of anyone's mod over another. I do know that I didn't like the MS version and regardless of how much research they did or how many ex-fighter jocks they had access to, it should be obvious to the most casual flight simmer that they screwed up several flight paramaters.

I like what Wells did and I like his style. He is obviously sincere and capable in what he is doing and believes he is doing the best job possible. That is good enough for me. He is not building "Mach3 Corsairs" as one poster so eloquently put it. Also, I'm not understanding some of the blatantly negative and inflammatory remarks he has received simply for trying to do a good job. I thought we as simmers were more grown up than that. I was apparantly mistaken.

I, for one, would like to see his FM as the accepted standard. I plan to only use his.

Peace out...

------------------
Objects on your six may be closer than they appear...

Spin Dr.


Posts: 321 | From: Lusby, Md | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
gregoryp
Member
Member # 719

posted 10-18-2000 02:04 PM     Profile for gregoryp   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wells

Just enjoy yourself with your updates and ignor some of the people here.

gregoryp


Posts: 31 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged

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