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Author Topic: Which sim has the most accurate flight modeling?
Archer Fish
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posted 08-01-2000 08:50 PM     Profile for Archer Fish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
So which sim is the best for representing the true flight characteristcs of a real helicopter?

Does FS2000 do the trick or does their rotorcraft fly like a plane?

I would like to believe there is a rotorcraft combat sim that can produce just as much if not better realism of airframe flight dynamics.

Which sim would that be...?

Archer Fish out...


Posts: 15 | From: Seattle, WA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
ice705
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posted 08-03-2000 03:31 PM     Profile for ice705   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I would have to say EECH ,but I'm telling you KA-52 has wicked potenial.
Posts: 131 | From: waltham,ma usa | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
ice705
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posted 08-03-2000 03:51 PM     Profile for ice705   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What are airframe flight dynamics?
Posts: 131 | From: waltham,ma usa | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Archer Fish
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posted 08-04-2000 02:20 PM     Profile for Archer Fish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ice,

By airframe flight dynamics I meant an aircraft's stability and control in flight.
Its one thing to have a helo based on a static model that behaves the same in all conditions, while it's another to have a model that is dynamic (changing within limits) to the conditions and responds more realistically.

I just wanted to know if there was a combat sim for helos (or fixed wing for that matter) that considered center of gravity effects, spiral divergence, dutch roll, stall speeds, power limits etc.

All flight sims have probably included a few flight dynamics "ingredients" but do not contain all. That would be a huge challenge and we would not be able to use the software on a $2000 to $3000 PC. So my original aim was to find out from the experienced sim-ers which helo sim had the most "ingredients" ie realistic airframe flight dynamics.

Archer Fish out...

[This message has been edited by Archer Fish (edited 08-04-2000).]


Posts: 15 | From: Seattle, WA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Kuroyama
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posted 08-06-2000 04:42 AM     Profile for Kuroyama   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Archer...
I suggest you wait until some genuine rotorheads answer your post.

I've logged countless sim hours, but I've only got about 8 hours of stick time in a helo. No, Im not military. No, I'm not even licensed. I just have VERY generous friends. He asked if I wanted to learn... You guys think it over! (read: no I did not solo.) It was an older Aerospitale <sp?>. It was twitchy as hell and NOTHING I've flown on the PC even remotely resembles it.

The point I'm getting to is this: I've got actual stick time and I know I'm NOT qualified to tell you whether or not EECH accurately models the Comanche and the Hokum...

Its the best sim on the market...I'll go so far as to say EECH is the best helo sim yet. But I WONT say that its true to life...I'm not qualified.

If your looking for a helo sim. Buy EECH. Buy it twice. It's just that good. read the reviews. play the demo...you know the drill!

Kuro out.


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Archer Fish
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posted 08-07-2000 05:00 PM     Profile for Archer Fish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Roger that Kuro...

I would love to have friends like that! Real stick time is what I am really after but until I get done with my degree I am looking for a substitute.

You lucky dawg!!!

Archer Fish out...


Posts: 15 | From: Seattle, WA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
ice705
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posted 08-09-2000 06:54 PM     Profile for ice705   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
can't touch that one.archer I also have no qualifications but I know what I like ,If you buy EECH and KA-52 true to life or not you will like the way they fly.
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AndyC
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posted 08-09-2000 07:11 PM     Profile for AndyC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have posted a few replies on this one in the past.

FS2K is appalling. I fly the B206 in real life and this has no resemblance at all.

I had a chance to play with the EECH Demo last night and I must admit it feels very good. Nothing on a PC is ever gonna come close to reality but how it feels is what counts I think. Now I just have to find somewhere to get the full version.

The only other helicopter sim worth any mention as far as flight-modelling goes is DIís Apache. Now that really felt good. The look on the approach and feeling were great.

Hope that helps a bit.

Andy c


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2ltviper
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posted 08-09-2000 07:21 PM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've flown the TH-67, a B206 in Army training colors and the OH-58C. Yeah. the B206 in in isn't very responsive (maybe like hydraulics off). Autos are kind of fun, but you have to apply decel at 200 AGL instead of 50 AGL. Rotor RPM stays up for a long time after applying collective on the initial. It does model translational lift well, to a cetain point. Try applying 5 to 10 percent under 2 ft hover power and move the cyclic forward to do a skidding takeoff. The climb will occur after 20 kts, but the performance of climb is not enough for the given torque setting. Any helicopters that are based on modified jets are all wrong (made for thjose that don't know how to fly helicopters. A good example is the UH-60 model. What a piece of crap. No ETL at all. Hovering in the B206 is sort of like hovering the real thing if you tried to do it by remote control because you have no proprioceptive fel forthe thing. Well, maybe it's like being a new pilot all over again.

------------------
"Hellfire Away!"


Posts: 73 | From: Enterprise, AL | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
AndyC
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posted 08-09-2000 09:23 PM     Profile for AndyC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
2ltviper,

I think you hit the nail on the head with the 206 in MSFS2K. Like flying with no hydraulics. I never thought of it that way before but makes sense, a bitch to fly but can be done with practice

I remember once with my intructor, he cut the hydraulics while I was hover taxiing back to parking. I flew back and did a run on landing on the grass. Switched the hydraulics back on then flew the last 10m or so to the H and had what is without doubt one of the best landings I have ever done. I have it all on video too, so I can bore people about it all day "watch this bit watch this bit. LOL

Later

Andy C


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2ltviper
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posted 08-10-2000 02:26 PM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What do you think about the autos?
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AndyC
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posted 08-10-2000 05:03 PM     Profile for AndyC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I find you have to flare much higher than real. About twice the height. Difficult to judge when to push the stick forward and level out too.

Andy C


Posts: 64 | From: Austria | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
2ltviper
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posted 08-12-2000 12:10 AM     Profile for 2ltviper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Have you eve dobne a prcatice auto at night on a lane. Now that can be scary! Talk about trying to judge your height. That radar altimeter got a little more use.

------------------
"Hellfire Away!"


Posts: 73 | From: Enterprise, AL | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Archer Fish
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posted 08-16-2000 01:14 PM     Profile for Archer Fish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have finally returned from the Abbotsford International Air Show in Canada... What a sight! The pyrotechnics were awesome!

So, if I understand correctly, I should stay away from FS2000 and get EECH when considering realistic helo flight characteristics.

I figured I could also build some helo controls as per Steve's instructions and then perhaps have a better understanding of the coordination that is required between cyclic, collective, and anti-torque pedals:

Any suggestions?

Archer Fish out...


Posts: 15 | From: Seattle, WA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Xscreamist
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posted 08-16-2000 07:47 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
To answer the original question which sim has the best flight model...No doubt hands down it was flight unlimited...first version by dynamics...it used what they called (fluid motion) to simulate flight...how I this works, the best I can understand it, is they created the world first...air, gravity, wind using how objects act in water as a bases to create the physics model...then they built accurate plane models and placed them into the physics model...this made a simulator which actually flew using the 3dimensional shape of the plane...rather than assigning points to the control surfaces of the plane and having a preset way for the plane to act when they are moved...the latter is the way most flight simulators are made today...if you haven't tried flight unlimited you should dig up a copy of it and try it...it's worth the $5.99 you'll pay for it in the bargain bin.
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Wulfrick
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posted 08-17-2000 03:50 AM     Profile for Wulfrick   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Although the orriginal Flight Unlimited had a fluid dynamics flight modelll, modern computers (even the very fastest current desktop machines) just don't have the number crunching power to to fluid dynamics modelling properly. The Physics department here at the University of York does some work on fluid dynamics, and we use quad Dec-alpha machines. Basically the program is set last thing before everyone goes home, and the results are collected the next morning. This I think would nit make a fun flight sim, i.e. about 0.000000000023 frames per second....

Cheers, Wulf.

------------------
Make sure the enemy is willing to die for his country. Then you both have the same aim in mind!


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Swampthing
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posted 08-17-2000 01:06 PM     Profile for Swampthing   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The best feeling flight model i personally have ever flown on ANY computer game, helo/fixed wing is still sadly A10 cuba. Nothings ever come close in the feel department for me. I don't think i ever even played that game, i just flew around and had fun flying.
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Xscreamist
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posted 08-17-2000 03:27 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't believe Archer Fish should jump to the conclusion that eech's dynamic flight modeling is not very accurate...how many people in this forum actually have flown the Comanche helicopter...this is new technology the closest thing anyone can compare to it is the apache which was designed in the late seventies early eighties...this is a completely new bird...I saw a discussion in another forum about flight dynamics where they compared L2(longbow 2) to EECH...particularly about the radars and how EECH's radar locked on to easily and was to easy to use...not to bust on anyone but it's possible that the new technology radar is faster at locking onto targets and it's easier to use...apples and oranges ppl...until we have confirmation from someone who has flown in the comanche this whole flight dynamics discussion is just all guesswork...and I doubt strongly that anyone who has flown in the comanche will be in this forum or would be allowed to discuss the flight characteristics of the helo to the public yet...so enjoy the game, and for now imagine that the flight dynamics are accurate...afterall we don't know...Happy hunting people...and I'll see you on the internet battlefield.
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Xscreamist
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posted 08-17-2000 03:33 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't believe Archer Fish nor anyone else should jump to any conclusions about EECH's flight model...how many people in this forum actually have flown the Comanche helicopter...this is new technology the closest thing anyone can compare to it is the apache which was designed in the late seventies early eighties...this is a completely new bird...I saw a discussion in another forum about flight dynamics where they compared L2(longbow 2) to EECH...particularly about the radars and how EECH's radar locked on to easily and was to easy to use...not to bust on anyone but it's possible that the new technology radar is faster at locking onto targets and it's easier to use...apples and oranges ppl...until we have confirmation from someone who has flown in the comanche this whole flight dynamics discussion is just all guesswork...and I doubt strongly that anyone who has flown in the comanche will be in this forum or would be allowed to discuss the flight characteristics of the helo to the public yet...so enjoy the game, and for now imagine that the flight dynamics are accurate...afterall we don't know...Happy hunting people...and I'll see you on the internet battlefield.
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Xscreamist
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posted 08-17-2000 03:35 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't believe Archer Fish nor anyone else should jump to any conclusions about EECH's flight model...how many people in this forum actually have flown the Comanche helicopter...this is new technology the closest thing anyone can compare to it is the apache which was designed in the late seventies early eighties...this is a completely new bird...I saw a discussion in another forum about flight dynamics where they compared L2(longbow 2) to EECH...particularly about the radars and how EECH's radar locked on to easily and was to easy to use...not to bust on anyone but it's possible that the new technology radar is faster at locking onto targets and is easier to use...apples and oranges ppl...until we have confirmation from someone who has flown in the comanche this whole flight dynamics discussion is just all guesswork...and I doubt strongly that anyone who has flown in the comanche will be in this forum or would be allowed to discuss the flight characteristics of the helo to the public yet...so enjoy the game, and for now imagine that the flight dynamics are accurate...afterall we don't know...Happy hunting people...and I'll see you on the internet battlefield.

fuwww...got that off my chest...

Remember: the best discussions are between two people who don't know what there talking about.


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Leaky
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posted 08-17-2000 10:21 PM     Profile for Leaky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Xscreamist

One does not have to have flown a Comanche to judge the FM of EECH. There is much documentation on the flight characterizes and its flight control system. Such information is not sufficient to judge all the nuances of the Comanche, but it is enough to get a general idea of how it should perform. From what I have read, EECH does not even come close to simulating the Comanche. The tail authority is abysmal (tail rotor authority is one of the main selling points of the Comanche), and there is a complete lack of sideways flight performance. This coupled with the complete lack of any modelling of the complex flight control system of the Comanche makes EECH a very poor simulation of the Comanche. These issues also apply to the Hokum making EECH a poor simulator. This is not to say that EECH is not a bad game (with its dynamic campaign), but as a simulation it fails. Sorry, but it just REALLY bugs me when everyone says that EECH has such a great FM. I sincerely hope Razorworks produces a patch to overcome these glaring oversights.

Wulfrick

While highly accurate real-time dynamic simulations are not feasible with today's hardware, ultra precise dynamics are not required to get an "overall" accurate simulation. Physics is largely a matter approximations, simplifying assumptions, and diminishing returns. A real-time accurate dynamic simulation can be achieved with today's hardware. Such a simulation may employ many approximations and simplifying assumptions, but doing so does not mean that there needs to be a tremendous loss in fidelity. For example, it is not necessary to integrate drag across the entire surface of the aircraft, but rather simple cross-section approximations may be sufficient. Doing so decreases the computing power required by many orders of magnitude, however, doing so may only decrease the fidelity an "insignificant" amount. Dynamic simulations are possible on today's hardware, and have the added advantage of being able to accurately simulate aircraft performing outside their normal flight envelope. It has been done in Flight Unlimited (fluid dynamics on considerably slower hardware) and in X-Plane (blade-element analysis) (and probably in others).

L


Posts: 38 | From: | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Hunter Cole
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posted 08-17-2000 10:33 PM     Profile for Hunter Cole   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ice705:
I would have to say EECH ,but I'm telling you KA-52 has wicked potenial.

KA-52...is a sim that is a brother to Gunship! As a matter of fact they both are cut from the same sort of cloth---buggier than all get out.

I bought a copy from EB for $9.00 and returned it 2 days later. I down loaded the patches I could find and performance still was abysmal. In LB when I banked, the craft reacted immediately-Alligator thought about it and then by the time it did it was a smoking spot on the ground.

Takeing off-only way I could get it off the ground was to hit the auto pilot and then it ran into the control tower, then into the ground. It didn't respond to my HOTAS even when I calibrated.

Weird stuff- this is the first sim I eever saw that the framework of the canopy, HUD, controls, MOVED with the speech .

My rig is a 366 mhz Celeron, 90 meg 0f RAM, V3 2000 AGP, SOund Blaster Live Value card.
while ancient in these days of 800-1.4 GHZ CPUs, it handles F4 EAW TAW, with ease.

TA has all the markings of a great helo sim, but like Gunship, was put out half baked.

My recommendation? Save your money and buy EECH and A/H. You'll be happier.

Myself, I'm disappointed because, I really wnated this sim. I don't know maybe I'll go back to EB and swap them a old game and pick it up for a couple of bucks..
NAAAAAAAH.


Posts: 184 | From: Danville, Va USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
xscreamist
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posted 08-18-2000 03:15 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think Leaky should read the last line in my last statement again...hell who am I to argue.
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Wulfrick
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posted 08-18-2000 05:09 PM     Profile for Wulfrick   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The 'tone it down' approach may well be fine for such things as FU and X-plane, but can you imagine the computing reqirements that this would generate if say every aircraft in a Falcon 4 campaign were modelled? Urk!

Cheers, Wulf.

------------------
Make sure the enemy is willing to die for his country. Then you both have the same aim in mind!


Posts: 399 | From: York, England | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Leaky
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posted 08-18-2000 05:32 PM     Profile for Leaky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wulfrick

It is not necessary to model all aircraft in F4 with the same fidelity. Much like the way lower detailed polygon meshes are used for more distant objects, a lower fidelity flight model could be used for distant aircraft. As always, it's a matter of tradeoffs, but I believe that the aircraft the user is piloting should have an accurate flight model (as this is the most noticeable). Also, enemy aircraft should not be able to perform outrageous maneuvers, but their flight models do not need to be as accurate as the user's aircraft. Remember, Flight Unlimited did what it did on a 486 with VESA graphics. There is considerably more computing power available to today's sims.

Xscreamist

I read the last line of your post... I just don't see how it applies to me!

L


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Archer Fish
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posted 08-18-2000 07:24 PM     Profile for Archer Fish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well...

I went out and purchased EECH for $34.99

Now I just have to finish building the controls.

Does anyone have any knowledge on the range of motion of the controls as compared to actual aircraft? What do they feel like on real helos?

Archer Fish out...


Posts: 15 | From: Seattle, WA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged

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