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Author Topic: KA-52 : DeadZone - Possible Fix...
De Janitor
unregistered

posted 03-30-2000 12:52 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey All!

Okay - I have a possible fix for all the folks out there who's got the deadzone problem.

Initially - I discovered that the FM wasn't altered when I tried banking in a hover, and as a few people noted, there was a "deadzone" effect whereby you had to use considerable joystick / cyclic authority to start and move. Transitions weren't too easy unless you were aggressive on the stick.

That's when I realized the FM was hosed.

Now, with the patched FM, Zero G and I had discussed what it does at length; basically, the patched FM WILL NOT WORK unless you have all the options turned on; hence some of those folks who patched it reported that they see no difference.

Moral Of The Story : TURN ALL OPTIONS ON. Vortex Ring State, Reverse Collective Et Al.

Now one of those options that I enabled was "CONTROL LAG". With that, like a real helo (ones I fly anyway R22, Bell 206) would, there's a lag between your control input and actual response. In which you have to HOLD your joystick there for roughly a second before gyroscopic procession takes place and you have a translated effect. Now Simis MUST have been thinking hard on how to create this effect with analog controllers and the best they could have come up with was : after approx 30% of input will then only be an effect.

Interesting.

Now try (with the 1.02B FM Patch INSTALLED) and disable that "CONTROL LAG" as I have - result? Much more responsiveness.

Let me know how it works for you!


Bob "De Janitor" Roberts


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JA
unregistered

posted 03-30-2000 10:53 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It does seem to make it more responsive - smooth turns at high speeds seem easier, for example. I remember that the readme to the demo had numerous command-line options that were non-functional in that version. I wonder if there is a deadzone option in the full retail release that can be accessed that way?

What is your feeling on the realism of the FM, post-Zero G version, relative to both helicopters generally and the Ka-52 in particular, in so far as we can speculate what it "feels like" to fly, what with its coaxial rotors and so on? It feels real enough to me, if very stable when hovering, but I am certainly not a real helicopter pilot, and have not had a great deal of simulated helo experience.

In any case, thanks for the tip and both your and Zero G's efforts to get this otherwise rather engaging sim up to speed in the realistic FM department!


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Jackal
Member
Member # 1202

posted 03-30-2000 12:11 PM     Profile for Jackal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
De Janitor,
I would really love to give you a positive answer, because I would buy this sim immediately without this deadzone issue.
Control lag off does help, but not for the main issue. It's strange, I can move the stick left/right by almost 50% of its full travel and get NO reaction. After a certain point the reaction comes all of a sudden and far too much, so that means constantly overcorrecting the helo. Almost no chance to get the helo back to center.
Even more strange, on the other axis (nose up/down) it seems to be much improved after ZeroGs FM and control lag off.
It can't be my stick, it's absolutely linear on all axes.
Just one thing, I'm talking about the demo, because I don't want to risk buying it before I'm sure it's solved.
However, thanks very much for your efforts, it was definitely worth a try.
Jackal

Posts: 220 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
De Janitor
unregistered

posted 03-30-2000 12:12 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
JA -

Thanks for the kind words.

The FM that is out there 1.02B was actually done by both me and Zero G. Yes, I think it's much better and Zero G and myself are constantly tweaking it. There should be a newer release... say in about 2 weeks... I also believe that Simis is working on a patch right now as we speak...

As to how the KA52 flies, I can only draw on what I've seen in videos, off of actual flying videos and that's part of it. The other part is up in Zero G's neck of the woods, his buddies fly the KA32 for logging... and they use co-axial rotors too. Both of us are helo pilots so it's safe to say that though it's not ACCURATE (or rather as accurate as we want it), it flies like a real helicopter and not like a BRICK.


Bob


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De Janitor
unregistered

posted 03-30-2000 12:15 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jackal -

Tell me what Hardware are you using as a gameport and which joystick?

Also - did you re-calibrate your joystick and reboot both in Win CTRL Panel and in the Options oF the KA52 Splash screen?

(Calibrate first, then reboot.)

I had that deadzone first and after I did that, it works fine; complete authority. It works for some but not for others...

Let me know!


Bob


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JA
unregistered

posted 03-30-2000 12:18 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks for the info, Bob. Jackal's description of the problem is exactly what I'm experiencing. Nothing...then too much. It's not a game-killer for me (I'm used to joystick input problems - ever play Jane's F-15?) but irritating none the less. Well, to be sure, the game has only been out about a week, so I'm not giving up hope yet.
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Shadowcat
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posted 03-30-2000 01:15 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Could someone clarify whether the two things mentioned here go hand-in-hand?

1) You need to move the cyclic a long way before it responds, and then it seem to 'over-respond' when it does take effect.

2) In a real chopper, you have to hold the controls for about a second after moving them, before the move takes effect.


Now, if (2) is simulated in Team Alligator, then (1) makes quite a lot of sense, and the solution would be to NOT keep moving the cyclic until there's a response, but rather to only move it the required amount, and then WAIT for the response. (This means knowing in advance how far you need to move the stick, but then it sounds like this is what pilots need to do in reality.)

Is there actually a huge dead-zone where nothing happens no matter how long you wait, or is it merely the delayed-response being simulated? (or a combination of both?)

(as a side note, I'll be mildly amused if the latter is correct, and suddenly every hard-core sim fan starts slamming any chopper sim that doesn't include the delayed response...)


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De Janitor
unregistered

posted 03-30-2000 01:28 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
1) You need to move the cyclic a long way before it responds, and then it seem to 'over-respond' when it does take effect.

Yes, that's what I used to experience before the FM patch. Now, I don't have that at all. I'm using a TM Top Gun Platinum...

2) In a real chopper, you have to hold the controls for about a second after moving them, before the move takes effect.

Yes, that's true too. My guess is that Simis was trying to recreate this effect and the only way they knew how was to factor in a deadzone. We're looking to see if we can tweak the FM a bit more but the deadzone controls are in the game itself... hang in there!


Bob


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Jackal
Member
Member # 1202

posted 03-30-2000 01:57 PM     Profile for Jackal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
De Janitor,

it's a TM F22 with the digital upgrade on an SB Live gameport. It's perfectly calibrated, sits like a rock in the center of Fox2s stick analyser. You can see it moving absolutely linear on both axes. Since I have this stick, flying with all sims except T-A is much smoother than before.
I repeat my findings here : The analyser shows the x-axis with values from 0 to 64K, 32K being the center.
Now I look when the helo begins to react, make a mark on the stick and look for the values in the analyser. At approx.16K to 32K (stick left) and 32K to 48K (stick right) there's no reaction in T-A. I can hold stick left at half travel for minutes, nothing happens (so no control lag issue).

Just for interest, I connected my TM racing wheel and this shows exactly the same, so it's not the stick.

I didn't find any stick calibration in the demo, maybe that's only in the release version ? Or did I misunderstand that and you mean only boot Win98 after calib, set options in TA and then reload TA ? If it's the latter, yes I tried that.

Jackal



Posts: 220 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
JA
unregistered

posted 03-30-2000 04:56 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The calibrate/reboot approach seems to have helped, but I need more stick time to be certain. Keeping the helicopter level in the roll axis without overcorrection appears at first glance to be easier, but it could be that I am just getting better as a pilot. Thanks for the recommendation.

JA


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Utelager
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Member # 2547

posted 03-31-2000 01:14 PM     Profile for Utelager   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
where can i get the patch?
Posts: 11 | From: a blue planet called earth | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged

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