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Author Topic: Thanks to Lenin
KDC
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posted 03-26-2000 07:17 PM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I just downloaded the demo for TA and was surprised to see in the help file a thank you to "... V.I.Lenin, for making this all possible." This is a joke, right? I mean they can't possibly be honoring this guy for real, can they? Please tell me this is tongue in cheek!
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RoganGosh
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posted 03-27-2000 05:23 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
".......they can't possibly be honoring this guy for real, can they?"

and why the hell not?


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KDC
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posted 03-27-2000 05:57 AM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Lenin was responsible for the creation of an empire that resulted in the death of millions. Thanking him in a computer simulation would be like thanking Hitler for a WWII flight sim.
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CEP}I{AHT
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posted 03-27-2000 07:08 AM     Profile for CEP}I{AHT   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KDC:
Lenin was responsible for the creation of an empire that resulted in the death of millions. Thanking him in a computer simulation would be like thanking Hitler for a WWII flight sim.

same goes for "grate statesman" Cherchil
or Lincoln for that matter - your logic makes them sending millions to their death in civil war or in wwI-II....

In the end of the day "thanks to Lenin" is phrase used in USSR a lot due to ideology, however, Lenin, inspite of using methods rejected nowdays, was establishing alternative development for the better, - it's not a fault of only one man when masses raped the idea.

Comparing it to faschism is illiterate opinionated position, showing once more how brainwashing works...

Learn before you judge or do not judge to not to be judged yourself.

------------------
Independent Helicopter Squadron RuAF

(Buy A-H and C-H and you might see BH-H!)


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Scout
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posted 03-27-2000 07:17 AM     Profile for Scout   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, let's not get carried away, but in any case I hope it was tounge-in-cheek for the only thanks that SOB deserves is a warm piss on his grave.

Cheers,
Scout


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KDC
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posted 03-27-2000 08:20 AM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
so CEP}I{AHT - I'm confused - where does my logic say that Lenin sent anyone to war? How did I compare the ideology of Facism to Marxist-Leninism? Lenin was a cold blooded killer who personally ordered the execution of the "Kulacks", or land owners. He waged class warfare in the name of a morally injust system that enslaved their people - all in the name of "alternative development for the better". I don't think you understood my second post, but instead rushed to judge based upon your preconceived notions.

I think you're just confused - you're asking me to learn you moron? Look at history and judge leaders on their actions. If you do, you will feel ashamed to denigrate Churchill and Lincoln. Lenin belongs on the list of history's mass murderers and only a fool (like you) who has been brainwashed by communism would look to him as a hero.


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Nolan
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posted 03-27-2000 09:40 AM     Profile for Nolan     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Anyone for "The winners write the history"?

/Nolan


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KDC
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posted 03-27-2000 10:33 AM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Nolan - I agree that the US and Capitalism are the winners, but your comments suggest you think that history has been "re-written" unfairly to the Soviets and Communism. Please explain...
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skip
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posted 03-27-2000 12:17 PM     Profile for skip   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
czarist russia created a monster like lenin and communism ,now who is to blame?,ask yourself what it must have been like to live in the ussr before communism and be poor,that is what bred a system that almost brought the end of the world (NUCLEAR WAR BETWEEN THE US AND RUSSIA)there will be no PEACE without JUSTICE.

[This message has been edited by skip (edited 03-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by skip (edited 03-27-2000).]


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skip
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posted 03-27-2000 12:29 PM     Profile for skip   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Im not a communist,but I try to look issues from both sides.Do you ever wonder what happened to lenin to make him that way?Im not condoning what he did,but I wonder what outside forces shape these people,it must have been something pretty HORRIFIC.
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:)
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posted 03-27-2000 02:11 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Amazing what an item in a readme file can start.
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Zed
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posted 03-27-2000 02:32 PM     Profile for Zed     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
...err...pardon me for being stupid, but how do you know that this is the same Lenin???!!!??

WTF!

And are we not forgeting the mass extermination/genocide of native American's...or the slave trade...or how about the Auzzies rounding up whole aborigine settlements and pushing them off cliffs.

To get this into perspective, then the US Army was killing native Americans, when they ran out of bullets they used the heels of their boots...and at the turn of the century this was about the same time as Lenin...

Z


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skip
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posted 03-27-2000 02:40 PM     Profile for skip   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
or how about the colonialism of the british lol. I shouldnt have posted anyway since you completely misinterpreted what I was tryin to say. do you really think the american people would put up with that kinda crap now? oh and btw i seem to remember a few u.s. army losses in that war with the indians
as well as we are the only country I know of that fought a civil war to stop slavery to the cost of some 350,000 lives so stick that in ur pipe an smoke it

[This message has been edited by skip (edited 03-27-2000).]


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JA
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posted 03-27-2000 02:50 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You guys are upset about a jocular reference to Lenin in the readme but not about the fact that the default team is named the "Heroes of Stalin"? That is both more offensive, if you are inclined to be offended by that sort of thing, and highly unrealistic - I strongly doubt the Russian armed forces are naming units after Stalin these days, or anytime since 1953.
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KDC
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posted 03-27-2000 03:26 PM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Zed - I'm not forgetting about the treatment of Native Americans. My post was about a thank you to Lenin from the development team. If a computer sim/game dealing with the US West dedicated or gave thanks to a figure in the US Government that mistreated American Indians then I would criticize that decision also.

You know, it amazes me that whenever faced with the enormity of the atrocities committed in the name of communism, the defenders always rush to point out the mistreatment of American Indians by the US Government, in effect trying to bring the US down to their level.


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Zed
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posted 03-27-2000 04:39 PM     Profile for Zed     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Guys,

What i'm trying to say is that none of our hands are clean...the Brits are possibly the least clean <skip>.

Why would you even think this was serious?

Also do you have any idea of the suffering of the Russian people under the Tsar?

And KDC how many of your nationals stood on the otherside of that civil war...

Every coin has TWO sides...remember that before you critcise...

I have no love for these guys for sure(and DO NOT defend their actions)...but then i won't critise cos i know my nation is not without fault.

Z

[This message has been edited by Zed (edited 03-27-2000).]


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'
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posted 03-27-2000 04:48 PM     Profile for '   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Guys, relax. That will go to nowhere, after many people will be insulted.
But, if you want my opinion...I think that division of the world, on two opposite systems had to happen. If Communism didn't happen in Russia, it would happen in US. There would be Lenin, Stalin, etc. in US. It doesn't matter where two opposite systems are located. What is important, is to have these opposite systems. This how civilization works. It works from difference of "this" and "that", and resulting progress from it.

When one semisphere is dark, the other one is bright. And life is going on...

------------------
... --- ... --- ... --- ...


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Donald
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posted 03-27-2000 04:53 PM     Profile for Donald   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think someone is confusing Lenin with Stalin. In a similar vain, wasn't it Panasonic (or one of the Japanese electronics firms) which did a (short-lived) ad campaign in the 60's, which started with the line:
"From the wonderful folks who brought you WWII..."!!

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RoganGosh
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posted 03-27-2000 06:08 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually KDC, you really don't have to go so far back as the Native American massacres - one might consider the humanitarian implications of the US-UK led sanctions on Iraq. Millions have died as a direct consequence. Statistically the documented loss of life resulting in deaths from treatable conditions is on a scale comparable to Hiroshima over a ten year period (as an aside, no nation other than America has actually used nuclear bombs in a theatre of war) .I am not making this up, I quote the internationally respected war correspondent John Pilger who has covered conflicts ranging from Vietnam to East Timor.

A blockade of the most basic medical resources (this includes aspirin and soap) and denying the equipment necessary to clean up the uranium-rich battlefields of Southern Iraq has led to a catastrophic increase of treatable cancers particularly evident in childhood leukaemias. Arguments for curtailing a bio/chem/nuke development programme are nonsensical when the very mechanism that was keeping Saddam's administration in check (the international moderators) has been withdrawn.

Indiscriminate bombing of pastralists and their sheep in the no-fly zone might be amusing in Falcon 4.0 but the fact that it is indeed happening on regular basis (publicly available Pentagon documents concede this) is sobering to say the least.

This is a glaring and generally under reported example of the not so noble western tradition of human rights violations.

I do like playing combat sims btw , dont get me wrong....


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RoganGosh
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posted 03-27-2000 06:12 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry if that sounded like a bit of a sermon but hey...cant wait for C-H to come out, dont know about you lot?
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RoganGosh
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posted 03-27-2000 06:29 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
.....Oh look ,I simply cant resist (this sort of debate is conspicuous by its absence on CombatSim forums) Im going to stick my neck out even further...

It is important to keep such a discussion in perceptive and avoid the pitfalls of defensive nationalist rhetoric that seem to be pervading here (at times ).

The Gulf war was after all fought largely, in fact centrally, over access to resources just as the Kosovo conflict reflected NATO- member anxieties of annexing and thus preventing access to the massive Balkan oil reserves in the Black Sea. Defending oppressed minorities has never been a primary mandate for British, American or Russian foreign intervention. To think otherwise is naive or plain silly. Let us not forget, to quote the credited founder of the international arms trade (some Brit industrialist in the 19th century -I forget his name), we are the instruments distant conflict and human misery. We collectively armed Saddam and Milosovic. The US, Britain , France and, until recently the USSR with their enormous arms industries still arm developing and, by our own definitions, unstable states (- and then we go to war with them when our, largely imperialist, sentiments are comprised.)

And back to original context of this thread : as you say Donald, let's please not confuse Lenin with Stalin. They are not synonymous either historically or ideologically. I don't think even the most hard boiled contemporary marxist - of which I am not one, before you bite my head off, KDC- would defend the soviet (Stalinist) regime which was after all state-capitalism and expandtionalist (is that a word?) imperialism.


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KDC
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posted 03-27-2000 08:22 PM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OK - lets look at the implications of Iraq. Saddam Hussein has resisted any and all attempts to reign in his desire to attack neighboring countries - it took a US led coalition to drive him out of Kuwait (btw I think we should have gone all the way and removed him when we had the chance). Now we have a rogue country led by a dictater more than willing to see his people suffer (and lets not forget the shiite muslims - you know the one s that the no-fly zone is supposed to protect?). So the US and the UK are trying to isolate Iraq to the point where Saddam will either a) renounce his militaristic ambitions to save his country(not likely), or b) Saddam will just go away/die, etc. I don't think that ordinary people in Iraq should suffer, but all Saddam has to do is walk away(LOL). We are asking Iraq to be a normal, productive member of the world. The US has a role to protect everyone (if it can) from terrorist countries that are a threat to everyones' way of life.

With that in mind, what do you suggest we do in Iraq - let him sell as much oil as he wants? I'm not so sure that the money would speed its way to the needy. I have the feeling that somehow, someway it would end up with the military / weapons program Saddam cherishes so much.

So, I think you should thank the US for containing these type of rogue states - the world would be alot more dangerous than it already is.


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KDC
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posted 03-27-2000 08:58 PM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
RoganGosh - I do want to say that I appreciate your comments (but don't neccesarily agree) - you obviously put a lot of thought into your statements. I also would really like to know what you think an effective policy toward Iraq would be.

KDC


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Zed
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posted 03-28-2000 03:18 AM     Profile for Zed     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
We should take this string elsewhere guys.

Z


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CEP}I{AHT
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posted 03-28-2000 03:24 AM     Profile for CEP}I{AHT   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KDC:
so CEP}I{AHT - I'm confused - where does my logic say that Lenin sent anyone to war? ... He waged class warfare in the name of a morally injust system that enslaved their people - all in the name of "alternative development for the better".

You answered yourself war=warfare...

quote:

How did I compare the ideology of Facism to Marxist-Leninism?

Leaders are products of ideology they cary.

quote:

Lenin was a cold blooded killer who personally ordered the execution of the "Kulacks", or land owners

And personnaly ordered also execution of clerigy I might add...

quote:

I don't think you understood my second post, but instead rushed to judge based upon your preconceived notions.

Exactly my point = I think you misunderstood the point of phrase in the first place and made exactly such a rush of judgement.

quote:

I think you're just confused - you're asking me to learn you moron? Look at history and judge leaders on their actions. If you do, you will feel ashamed to denigrate Churchill and Lincoln.
Lenin belongs on the list of history's mass murderers and only a fool (like you) who has been brainwashed by communism would look to him as a hero.

Judgement by actions is not the only criteria which defines everybody's worthiness - one should consider everithing in context of preositons, conditions, environment and time. You are in the begining of road of understanding in this particular matter don't make ignorant arguments untill you grasp it. I am not looking to Lenin as my hero, as it is wrong to create idols for oneself, nor I'm trying to justify his personal actions. I'm simply trying to advise you from the point of real experience and knowledge spanned from grandparents still remmembering the actual reality to one who knows the consequences of both shades.

One thing I do not is call you "names", nor do I tollerate it from anyone. If anything you should be ashamed of this. Apology is due where it is - untill then this is my final point on the matter and I'll demand satisfuction from you in any manner and in any way.

------------------
Independent Helicopter Squadron RuAF

(Buy A-H and C-H and you might see BH-H!)


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Zed
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posted 03-28-2000 03:25 AM     Profile for Zed     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Oh and KDC, one thing i don't understand. Do you believe that the slave trade or the massacre of Native Americans some how was less worse that the atrocities of Stalin?

Please could you explain this?

Z


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KDC
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posted 03-28-2000 06:10 AM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
CEP}I{AHT - your'e upset in my calling you names - how about you stating that my comments are an "...illiterate opinionated position, showing once more how brainwashing works..." How can you sit there posting unintelligible nonsense and demean my opinion (backed up by facts) and then cry when I call you a moron. I think I was being lenient. You can retract your attack first.

Zed - Please, what kind of question is that? The only way I will respond is by saying that there was not neccesarily one person driving the slave trade or the mistreatment of American Indians.


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RoganGosh
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posted 03-28-2000 06:34 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What the......?
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Fagor
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posted 03-28-2000 06:49 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
KDC

It is obvious for many off us that you have a rather «clean» brain yourself.
You love for you country is moving but maybe it is clouding your judgment?

Read some more history , try to draw your own image from that (not based on any bias),
and then calm down.


Fagor


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KDC
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posted 03-28-2000 08:18 AM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fagor - could you possibly be more condescending? What a statement! I guess I haven't read enough history to make my own judgement. The gall that you have to decide that someone who doesn't agree with your views is just not educated is beyond belief.


btw I will try to calm down...


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Enforcer
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posted 03-28-2000 10:19 AM     Profile for Enforcer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Gotta love politics....

Enforcer.


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Nolan
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posted 03-28-2000 10:40 AM     Profile for Nolan     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
KCD-

My note was merly an atempt to state that who ever comes out on top decides, relativly, what is true. If [insert historical madcap of choice] had succeded in what ever they where up to the world would have been a different place alltogether.

Besides, I didn't say that the US money train is the ultimate ride. A classic case of total missinterpetation.

And the devolopers are kind right because with out Lenin there would have been no revolution in 1917 and without the revolution there would be no USSR as we know it and with out USSR as we know it no KA-52. This, however, does not claim that Lenin was a all-around nice bloke that you'd invite over for newyears eve. He just helpt form the world as we know it, for better or worse.

/Nolan

I'm leaving this thread, to much agression, makes my stomach hurt...


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bighead111
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posted 03-28-2000 10:52 AM     Profile for bighead111   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You know guys, sometimes I wonder if we are the flight or combat simmers or political editors??
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SPOT
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posted 03-28-2000 11:26 AM     Profile for SPOT   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Lenin in your Readme - open WINDOWS NOTEPAD
and liquidate him.

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Jws
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posted 03-28-2000 08:39 PM     Profile for Jws   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually, I've read things (NOT propaganda!) that state Lenin was a idealist with a dream for a better life for the Russian people (then again, what Russian didn't dream for a better life back then, besides the Czar himself ) and it was Stalin and the natural greed of the masses that twisted and destroyed the Communism idea.

But, don't quote me on that, it's not my personal belief, just something interesting I read. Actually, I could care less about Communism and the USSR and all that other crap, because it's all gone and over with, what's the use in worrying about it anymore?

I'm well aware of the genocide committed by the Americans, but I'm not a part of that generation, in fact, my particular family ancestors didn't most to the U.S. from Germany and Ireland until 1917...so I'm more closely related the Germans who fought in WW1 than the Army officers who slaughtered Indians in the US 150 years ago!!

-Jon


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KDC
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posted 07-20-2000 02:17 PM     Profile for KDC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
For the last word... http://www.frontpagemag.com/archives/guest_column/glazov/glazov07-20-00.htm


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