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Author Topic: Further KA flight model tweaks? (ZG)
aszurom
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Member # 2119

posted 03-26-2000 06:12 PM     Profile for aszurom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey,

I'm reviewing it for GDR, and I've plugged in Zero's flight model. Here's some observations that I've made, and please tell me if it's the same for everyone.

With my CH Fighterstick, the game has a massive dead-zone. I have to deflect the stick about 30% to get any roll out of the chopper. This makes precise control impossible.

ZeroG, what parameter in the flight model file controls the helo's tendency to right itself? If I could set this thing to roll back to vertical on its own it would be about 10x more flyable. Basically, if I'm not pushing the stick, I feel that the helo should right itself 100% given a few seconds. Right now, the game feels almost like it's setup to use a gamepad. (ooh, I bet that's it!)

Darn it... I just want the LB2 flight model... hehe.


Posts: 24 | From: waynesburg, ohio, usa | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Flying Canuck
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Member # 3896

posted 03-26-2000 06:26 PM     Profile for Flying Canuck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi, I have a CH stick, and the same problems (I've posted on another thread started by Z - if you want to read the full msgs about it)

I do love the graphics, if only. . . .
(sigh)


Posts: 6 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zero G
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posted 03-26-2000 06:45 PM     Profile for Zero G   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
With the new FM is the helo not pretty much righting its self? You must understand that at this time I have yet to see the final build of TA. De Janitor was kind enough to phone me with the FM problems in the release version then work with me to fix them up a bit.

The joystick problems cannot be fixed in the FM, if you change the FM so that the helo returns to center better you cause the top speed and climb ability to be screwed up... Things are linked like this in the FM, I will do further tweaking after I get more feedback and a release copy of the sim. I have sent e-mails asking about the Joystick problems..

------------------
Z

[This message has been edited by Zero G (edited 03-26-2000).]


Posts: 374 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
INSPECTOR
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posted 03-26-2000 07:17 PM     Profile for INSPECTOR   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
zero g is doing a super human effort here, sounds like the company is dragging........

dunno if i want to buy it yet, but congrats z !


Posts: 109 | From: omaha, ne | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Laphter
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Member # 2013

posted 03-26-2000 07:22 PM     Profile for Laphter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Just an FYI, I have a Thrustmaster F-16 FLCS with a WCS MarkII and I have no such dead zone problem. The patch really helped the flight model "come to life". I no longer get the feeling I'm on rails and the Chopper does try to right itself. Thanks!
Posts: 208 | From: Charlotte, NC | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
skip
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posted 03-26-2000 07:29 PM     Profile for skip   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
INSPECTOR:

its your loss,this a definite keeper and Ive flownem all, very immersive


Posts: 260 | From: ,Texas,usa | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Zero G
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Member # 311

posted 03-26-2000 07:38 PM     Profile for Zero G   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by INSPECTOR:
zero g is doing a super human effort here, sounds like the company is dragging........

dunno if i want to buy it yet, but congrats z !



Hehe thanks Inspector, I better watch it or I will burn myself out!
Oh hahahahahaha hehehehe Bwaaahahahahahaha
<SLAP> Oh sorry back to your regularly scheduled program..


------------------
Z


Posts: 374 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Swampthing
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posted 03-26-2000 08:08 PM     Profile for Swampthing   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've got the massive dead zone as well. I'm not using CH gear though, right now i'm using a saitek cyborg joystick since my TM gear is all busted and I haven't replaced it yet. I personally thought it was just this crappy joystick but i guess it's a bigger problem.
Posts: 285 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jackal
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posted 03-27-2000 05:34 AM     Profile for Jackal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have a digital F22 and the same, huge dead zone, impossible to get the cyclic back to center, I'm constantly overcorrecting left/right. This seems a bit worth with the FM tweak, but I tried ZeroGs tweak with the demo, probably it wasn't meant for the demo.

Another observation : Rudder input at high speeds cause a surprisingly intense yaw reaction. When releasing the rudder input, the helo snaps back to the initial heading in an instant. I'm no expert, but this behaviour seems suspicious for the next Nobel prize of physics :-).
Jackal


Posts: 220 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Zero G
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posted 03-27-2000 05:57 AM     Profile for Zero G   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think I need something cleared up for me about this big *** dead zone that is being talked about. Is this a dead zone with the stick where the helo doesn't move at all or is this the very stable hover problems where the helo leans but doesn't move?

Jackal: Helos are very different then planes in that you can do just that sort of thing with pedal inputs. When practicing jamed pedals/TR fail senarios in RL you are flying the helo in basicly sideways at high speeds. Each helo is different here because of the amount of thrust generated by the TR. The guys who make the KA-52 say that you can do full pedal turns at any speed that it can fly at. I am not sure that this isn't hype, I sure would love to see one do a 360 at 150 knots...

Anyway you can twist the helo while at high speeds, the snap back is just the wind hitting the helos body and pushing it back to an aerodynamic position. This is all very normal, helos are built to try fly in trim with little to no pedal inputs while in cruise flight. Stick your hand out a car window while driving at high speeds, hold it horizontal to the ground then twist it up to vertical and see how fast it pulls your hand around. It is quite basic physics really.

------------------
Z


Posts: 374 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Flying Canuck
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posted 03-27-2000 09:01 AM     Profile for Flying Canuck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, my dead zone prob is a bit of both.

First, I have to deflect the joystick about 30 degrees, as mentioned by the other chap, before it moves the helo. Then the chances are that the helo will just sit there.

I've panned down into the cockpit and watched the sim-hand moving the virtual stick the same amount as my joystick, so the game is recognizing the input. (Small deflections are shown, but somewhere in the coding it doesn't get to the helo's F/M)

My rudder/torque input seems *ok* The post above that mentions it snapping back to centre at higher speeds seems ok to me; my thinking is that aerodynamically the helo would point into the wind/direction of travel. At slower speeds/hovering the helo pretty much stays pointed in the direction chosen by the rudder input.

9 days, and counting, before EB gets it back unless someone solves this. . .

(At least the guns work, and I can take my frustrations out on the lovely buildings in the surrounding countryside)


Posts: 6 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jackal
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posted 03-27-2000 10:59 AM     Profile for Jackal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
ZeroG,

thanks for the physic clarification, but I meant the instant snap back, as if no inertia were there. The effect you describe is of course present in other sims as well, but e.g. in A-H it is much more believable.

For me it's for 80% the huge dead zone which is disturbing. The other, maybe we call it center stability, is believable to a certain extent for me (not sure if the Hokum is equipped with flight control computers).

I tested the dead zone by making marks when e.g. cyclic left/right begins to react and compared the marks in a stick analyser.
Result : Imagine the X-axis (left/right) of the stick has values from 0 to 65532 with 32767 being the center. Now the 'no reaction' zone is from 20000 to 44000, this means a dead zone of 24000 'units'. That's almost a 30% total dead zone, 15% on each side, this is by far too much !
Please note, this digital F22 stick is the most stable stick in the world, so it's not a stick problem !!
Jackal


Posts: 220 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jackal
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Member # 1202

posted 03-27-2000 11:11 AM     Profile for Jackal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Correction, the dead zone is more than 30% on each side of course .
Jackal

Posts: 220 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
aszurom
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posted 03-27-2000 03:40 PM     Profile for aszurom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Clarification on dead zone:

an actual stick deflection of slightly less than half of the joystick's limit is required to produce any effect on the helo.

Once you DO get it moving, it requires approx a 20 degree pitch change to induce movement. (I pitch 20 down and begin to finally creep forward)

Something else that TRULY ANNOYS me is that the helicopter will sideslip on it's own. Here's an example scenario: I pull straight up off the runway and hover. Then, without any roll or yaw, push forward to accelerate. The helo, rather than heading straight ahead, will be travelling at about a 30 degree left vector off the nose. Yaw does not correct this. However, if I roll right and then back to center it will remove the leftward motion for a minute or two before it returns. Highly annoying. I thought perhaps it was wind or something, but I can turn 180 and still get the same effect in the opposite direction of travel... i.e. to the left again. Wind would make it go right at that point.


Posts: 24 | From: waynesburg, ohio, usa | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Flyguy
unregistered

posted 03-27-2000 04:48 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I Am using an F22 pro tqs and rcs with the digital chips. I too suffer from a MASSIVE dead zone. I mean I have to yank this baby to get anything aout of it. I hanve to pull the stick over half of its travel in any direction to get any response at all. Once it does start to respond to input There is very little travel left and the slightest motion eats the rest of the travel right up.. Very little space for finer adjustment.....God it is awful!! I think that it feels like a nintendo flight sim rather than a PC based one. The graphics are awsome the game play is fun. Also I dont know if anyone else is having this trouble but when I cycle the MFDs
more then twice (Full screen or virtual, Single player or multi)I get dunped to the desktop every time. I have three fast machines on a LAN All experience this crash.
Systems are as follows:
System 1 consists of:
Win98 SE
PIII-600
Asus P3BF
256MB PC100
Hecules 3D Prophet DDR-DVI (32MB)
Turtle Beach Quadzilla
52x Creative cdrom
Toshiba DVD M1212
Intel Pro 100+ Management Adapter
Promise Ultra66 IDE Controller card
27.3 gig WD UDMA66 7200rpm
Viewsonic P-815 21"
All drivers are current and certified, directx 7.0A is installed. running with greater than
90% system resources free.

System 2 consists of:
Win98 SE
PIII-550
Asus P3BF
256MB PC100
Creative Labs Annihilator Pro (32MB)
Turtle Beach Montego II
Intel Pro 100+ Management Adapter
50x Acer cdrom
Promise Ultra66 IDE Controller card
27.3 gig WD UDMA66 7200rpm
Viewsonic P-810 21"
All drivers are current and certified, directx 7.0A is installed. running with greater than
90% system resources free.

System 3 consists of:
Win98 SE
PIII-600B
ASUS PC3-E
192MB PC100
Diamond Viper Ultra 770 (32MB)
Turtle Beach Montego II
Intel Pro 100+ Management Adapter
52x Creative cdrom
Acer 4x4x32 cdrw
27.3 gig WD UDMA66 7200rpm
Viewsonic PS790
All drivers are current and certified, directx 7.0A is installed. running with greater than
90% system resources free.


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