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Author Topic: Bf-109 Armament
DBond
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posted 01-31-2000 10:26 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I spend the majority of my EAW seat time in my beloved 109. Any and all variants will do(Mini-Opa?). Quite a few of the resources I have found indicate that many models were armed with 15mm MG151 cowling-mounted cannon(with 200 RPG) in addition to the engine mounted cannon firing through the spinner. Among these were the F3, G6 and K4. Obviously, ECA variants of these planes are armed with 13mm MG131 machine guns. Were some production models armed with the 15mm MG151 and others with the 13mm MG131? If so, which armament was more prevalent? If the MG151 was a more common fitting, I'd like to see the next incarnation of ECA reflect this. The 109 is a deadly bird in the hands of a skilled pilot, and I think it would be even more so with this type of armament. Any thoughts?
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matttm
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posted 01-31-2000 10:37 PM     Profile for matttm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
The MG 151 was in two versions. 15mm and 20mm (MG 151/15 and MG 151/20). Both these weapons were mounted in the engine firing through the propeller hub. They were not cowl mounted. The MG 131 was the largest cowl mount on the Bf 109 introduced on the G-5 series.

The MG 151/15 was introduced with the F-1 and the MG 151/20 with the F-3?

Matt.

[This message has been edited by matttm (edited 01-31-2000).]


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DBond
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posted 01-31-2000 10:59 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Matt~

Thanks for the quick reply. I didn't think that any version through the end of the "G" series was so equipped, but here are two links that indicate otherwise on the K4.
http://www.warbirdresourcegroup.org/LRG/bf109K4.html
http://members.aol.com/bf109gust/index.html

[This message has been edited by DBond (edited 01-31-2000).]

[This message has been edited by DBond (edited 01-31-2000).]


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DBond
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posted 01-31-2000 11:19 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Let me know if that first link works. I edited it twice to appear the way it should. It works for me, but the change I made is to add an "s" to warbird and my post still reads warbird(even though the link still takes me to the correct page). Hope it works for you.
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DBond
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posted 01-31-2000 11:26 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
And at the risk of completely commandeering this thread, I apologize. I was wrong in regards to the F3. That does indeed have an engine-mounted MG151. But I'm sure I've seen references to the G6 with the cowling-mount MG151. Unless I can dig it up though, I'll defer to your knowledge of the subject.

[This message has been edited by DBond (edited 01-31-2000).]


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Tobiwan
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posted 02-01-2000 01:26 AM     Profile for Tobiwan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
No Bf109 cowl mounted the MG151/20mm.

HOWEVER...

The MG151/15mm WAS cowl-mounted so Dbond is right.

The MG151/15mm was engine mounted on the Bf109F-1, but two of them where cowl mounted on later versions of the Bf109K. The K-10 or K-14 had twin 15mm and a single 30mm. I think some of the last Gustavs may also have had the 15mm but not many.

I'm sure about the K though...EAW has a reletivly early K and this still has the MG13s on the cowl.

And yes, I can imagine the concentrated (all in nose!) firepower of 2x15mm and a 30mm must have been quite immense...add two wing 30mm MK-103s and you have a bomber buster worthy of the Focke-Wulf. Also bear in mind the speed of the K. Hell! I want a K-14!


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matttm
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posted 02-01-2000 02:27 AM     Profile for matttm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, I beg to differ...

The armament on the K-4 was 2x MG 131 (13mm) in the cowl and an MK 108 (30mm) through the propeller. Some K-4's had a MG 151/20 instead of the MK 108.

No K (there was only the K-4 - the K-6 never went into production and there are no Werknummer for them yet discovered, though there was a prototype flying in Autumn 1944 and there was no K-10 or K-14!) had MG 151/15 in the cowl.


Matt.

[This message has been edited by matttm (edited 02-01-2000).]


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Edwin Rommel
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posted 02-01-2000 02:36 AM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Herren

A Question on ze K model- Is the notorious Gun Jamming in EAW Korrekt- The damn guns "freeze" on me every time I fly it??- Ze speed means nothink if du kannot shoot ja?

Danke

E.R.


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Tannethal
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posted 02-01-2000 02:38 AM     Profile for Tannethal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Wouldn't be this sure about the MG151/15 cowl mounted in the K4. I mean among Luftwaffe historicans this is fiercly debated.

I have a book indicating that some K4 were equipped with one MK103 and two MG151/15.
While i have no problem with the MK103 (although I don't believe it was installed on the majority of the Ks, roundabout 30% i think had it) the MG151/15 seem not to be very likely, it would have required a workover of the cowling since the weapon was lager than a MG131, but this is against the idea that stood behind the K series, uniformation of the various production lines!

Tannethal


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Tobiwan
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posted 02-01-2000 05:46 AM     Profile for Tobiwan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Well K-?? or whatever...

The 109K in AOE had two 15mm.


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Twitch
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posted 02-01-2000 09:38 AM     Profile for Twitch   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Tannenthal-
I have a similar book Wm. Green's Fighters Vol I from about 1960. But in Green's Fighters of the World printed in the mid '90s it doesn't refer to any production K having the 15mm!!??

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Opa
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posted 02-01-2000 11:06 AM     Profile for Opa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Dbond, I like your taste!

------------------
Der Opa


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Gavin
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posted 02-01-2000 11:20 AM     Profile for Gavin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the E-3, it does come stock with some of the add-ons.

(I believe the E-3 was the only E version to try the 151/20 in the nose, and was not used widely due to problems.)

I use the E-4 in my game, just because it was the most common 109 in the BoB.

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"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly
developed it may be." - Adolf Galland.


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Sidewinder062
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posted 02-01-2000 04:59 PM     Profile for Sidewinder062   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
DBond (holder of the Diamonds), Looks like you've started quite a mess here. I've just finished looking through five of my books and they all mention the 15mm MG 151 in reference to the F-2 and the K series. I noticed it is always referred to as a "cannon" when mentioned with the F-2 and a "heavy machinegun" with the K series. I'm not certain about this but I always assumed the difference between cannons and machineguns was not so much the bore size but whether or not they fired explosive ammo. All of my reference books are fairly consistent on the use of the 15mm on the F and K series fighters. I have Green's book Twitch mentioned (neat little things 4x5 inch) but not Green's later publication. Some of my books are recent though, and they all seem to have the same information. I suppose there is the possibility that there were cannon and machinegun versions of the 151. I have never seen the round, but always believed it was merely a 20mm 151 reduced in bore size to increase velocity. All this brings to mind another question about armament. What versions of the 30mm are we using in ECA? According to The Great Book of World War II Airplanes the Mk 108 as a muzzle velocity of 1640 fps, while the Mk 103's MV is 2950! That's a considerable difference. I have not noticed any major difference in the trajectory of any 30mms in EAW, so I assume we have the MK 108. One can fire the 13mms at bombers and without changing point of aim fire the 30mm and they fall away like a poorly thrown molotov cocktail. The Mk 103's velocity is faster than the 13mm, so wouldn't it be nice to have the 103 on our K models. What about this Charles Gunst?

[This message has been edited by Sidewinder062 (edited 02-01-2000).]


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DBond
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posted 02-01-2000 05:50 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Reese~

Yeah man, a mess it is! But isn't it indicative of the persistent modification and tinkering with the German fighters? We certainly wouldn't see this much difference of opinion regarding an Ami fighter. For me, it simply adds to the intrigue of the 109. It is a plane we know so much about, yet we know so little.

And if I may, I'd like to conduct a mini-poll for anyone visiting this thread. Is there anyone besides myself and Opa that would view themselves as a 109 pilot first, and all others a distant second?


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matttm
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posted 02-01-2000 06:31 PM     Profile for matttm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
If you read the question carefully, the argument is over the cowl mounted armament. i.e. the weapons over the engine.

There was no MG151/15 or larger mounted over the engine.

The engine mounted cannon, the one that fired through the propeller hub were:

E series: None (some experimentation with MF FF on E-3 but they couldn't really make it work)

F series: 15mm MG151/15 and 20mm MG151/20 from the F-3???

G series: MG151/20 and 30mm MK108 (some G-6, G-14, G-10)

K series: 30mm MK 108 and MG151/20 (some)

Cowl mounted:

E series: 7.92mm MG

F series: 7.92mm MG (exception Galland's F-4, one of which also had MG FF/M in the wings)

G series: 7.92mm MG (G-1 to G-4) and 13mm MG131 (G-5 onward)

K series: 13mm MG131

The German's also experimented a lot (see Galand's F-4's) but the above is for a/c delivered and used by combat units. I haven' even start with the Rustsatze kits :-)

Matt.

[This message has been edited by matttm (edited 02-01-2000).]


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Sidewinder062
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posted 02-01-2000 08:04 PM     Profile for Sidewinder062   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Matt, Just to let you know that I haven't been sneaking into the medicinal cabinet here's something from William Green's Fighters Volume One:"Four subtypes were produced; the Bf 109K-2 and K-4 powered by the DB 605ASCM/DCM with MW 50 (methanol) injection boosting take-off power from 1,550 h.p. to 2,000 h.p., the similarly-powered Bf 109K-6, and the DB 605L-powered Bf 109K-14. The K-2 and K-4 differed solely in that the latter had a pressurized cabin, both carrying an armament of two 15-mm. MG 151s and one 30-mm. MK 103 or MK 108. The Bf 109K-6 carried two 13-mm. MG 131s and three 30-mm. MK 103s, and the K-14 had two MG 131s and one MK 108. The Bf 109K-2 and K-4 made their operational debut during the Luftwaffe sortie against Allied airfields on January 1, 1945, but the Bf 109K-14 was too late to see operational service." I have just read other reports that specifically mention the word "cowl" in connection with the 15mm guns (cannons). This was more concise and easier to reproduce. What are your sources to support the argument that no 15mm cowl guns were present on any Bf 109 aircraft? I don't really give a damn to be honest, but I would like to know if all these guys just made this stuff up to meet editorial expectations or demands. See you over the Channel (but only with 13mms lol) Reese.
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DBond
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posted 02-01-2000 08:13 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Now THIS is the type of thread I like!
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matttm
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posted 02-01-2000 09:18 PM     Profile for matttm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
The two sources that I have used are:

The Squadron and Signal books (sometimes dubious I admit) and more importantly the works by Prien and Rodienke. They are noted historians on the BF109 and FW190, JG2 and JG53. Their works include Werkenummer assigned to all manufactured aircraft ('The Messerschmitt BF 109 F, G and K' is a particularly good volume). Apart from the prototype K-6 flown in Autumn 1944 there (see above for rest).

Matt.


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Sidewinder062
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posted 02-01-2000 09:44 PM     Profile for Sidewinder062   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Matt, Ok, in the interest of international realtions I'm out of this (SEATO and all).

DBond, you scoundrel, you started this and now you're sitting back laughing at us--but where? Everyone knows nobody lives in Ocean City in the winter. How do I know this? Back in '66 when I was a senior in high school my sweetheart and I used to skip school (Philadelphia), bundle up, put the top down on my '61 Sunbeam Alpine, and head for OC! We had the whole place to ourselves--the boardwalk was empty. We had to drive back up the Blackhorse just to find a diner where we could get something to eat. I haven't been to Jersy in 25 years, in fact I would even say the words New Jersey if it weren't for the Boss. Not the Sky Boss or the straw boss but THE Boss--Bruce Springsteen--"chrome-wheeled, fuel-injected, and steppin' out over the line." Oops, I think I left the door to the medicinal cabinet open. See you over the Channel. Reese


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DBond
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posted 02-01-2000 10:36 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Hey man, that's amazing! I'm looking out my window at that same boardwalk you visited all those years ago. And there is at least one full-time resident-me! And beleve it or not, my place of employ is on the Blackhorse Pike! It's changed alot since you were last here. I don't think you would recognize it. This neck of the woods has grown by leaps and bounds since gaming came to A.C. in 1979. If you are ever going to visit again, be sure to drop me a line, I'd enjoy getting together with an old warhorse like you. And I'm not laughing! I really do enjoy this type of discussion. Any and all info I can get on WWII aircraft is like Vitamin C. You can never get enough!
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DBond
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posted 02-01-2000 10:49 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
And BTW, is Marshall, Texas anywhere near Sugarland? There is a sweet young thing that visits me in the summer from there. Ahh... gotta love summer girls.
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Capitan Manduca
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posted 02-02-2000 01:21 AM     Profile for Capitan Manduca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Sidewinder, there was a "little" difference between the Mk103 and Mk108 30mm cannons to not to mount Mk103 on single-engined fighters: Weight. The Mk103 weighted almost the double of Mk108 and was more expensive to produce. As you said the Mk103 had better performance.

------------------
"Roll over, spin round and come in behind them. Move to their blindsides and firing again"
Iron Maiden - Aces High


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Edwin Rommel
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posted 02-02-2000 01:25 AM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Herren

I repeat mein question:

Was either of these Mk108/103 prone to jamming?- I find that the EAW Me109 K is a pain to fly- the guns jam all the time- do you find this as well?

E.R.


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JG5_Jerry
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posted 02-02-2000 02:59 AM     Profile for JG5_Jerry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
A similar thread about the 15mm cowl guns rcently took place at the 12 O'Clock High Luftwaffe BBS. The majority consensus was that there were no 15mm cowl guns on the 109K. I tend to believe what the guys say on that BBS as alot of them are historical researchers with access to alot of accurate data.

------------------
C/O, Jagdgeschwader 5 'Eismeer'

http://www.madasafish.com/jerry/jg5


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Squeeze_One
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posted 02-02-2000 03:39 AM     Profile for Squeeze_One   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Jerry:
According to http://members.aol.com/bf109gust/
K-2 and K-4 had a pair of 15-mm MG 151 machine-guns.
In K-6 they were reverted back to 13-mm MG 131 fuselage mounted machine-guns and was fitted with a pair of 30-mm MK 108 cannons in the wings for added firepower and also had a BSK 16 gun-camera installed inboard of the port wing camera.
The R5 modification also allowed for the 30-mm MK 108 short barreled cannon in underwing gondolas.
-----------
Squeeze_One


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matttm
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posted 02-02-2000 04:25 AM     Profile for matttm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Sigh :-(

There was only a K-4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, I give up...

Matt.


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JG5_Jerry
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posted 02-02-2000 04:33 AM     Profile for JG5_Jerry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
The version of the K-4 which had extra 30mm guns (which were mounted beneath the wings) was a rare modified /U4 version. This may not have even been used outside the evaluation stage. (FYI, there is a photo of one these guns being loaded in the Links section of my JG5 site). AFAIK, there was only one operational version of the 'K' series Bf109 - the K-4.

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C/O, Jagdgeschwader 5 'Eismeer'

http://www.madasafish.com/jerry/jg5


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Edwin Rommel
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posted 02-02-2000 04:53 AM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
UND WHAT ABOUT THE F***KING JAMMING GUNS??

Katzenjammer rushes up and injects a huge dose of sedative into Rommels arm

"There, there calm down Herr Feldmarshall, somevon somevhere vill answer you soon-- There, there"


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JG5_Jerry
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posted 02-02-2000 05:28 AM     Profile for JG5_Jerry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I don't know about the gun jamming issue in reality - but, AFAIK, guns jams occur in EAW when high-g is being pulled whilst firing the gun(s). I've never had the cannon jam in the 109K in EAW.

------------------
C/O, Jagdgeschwader 5 'Eismeer'

http://www.madasafish.com/jerry/jg5


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Edwin Rommel
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posted 02-02-2000 05:51 AM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
S! Herr Jerry- Oberkommandeur der bekanten Jagd Gruppe 5!

It goes like this- High speed totally level attack from the bomber stream's 6 (Who wants to live forever?)- All guns selected.

"Feuer"

"Blam, blam- click, click, Scheiß !!!!"

A slight turn, or altitude adjustment does it every time- could it because of the speed?

Danke

E.R.


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JWC
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posted 02-02-2000 06:02 AM     Profile for JWC     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Rommel:

I can hardly be considered an expert on this subject (having never been an actual 109K experte!), but according to Donald Caldwell's "JG26: Top Guns of the Luftwaffe": (p.292 of my print) "The Gruppe [III] had received a number of examples of the last version of the Bf 109 to see service, the Bf 109K-4. This variant was very similar to the G-10, but a number of features that had been introduced in stages were standardized. Among these were a clear-vision canopy, a retractable tail wheel, and a 30-mm MK 108 or MK 103 nose cannon. The 30-mm cannon were extremely potent wepons, but they had a tendency to jam, and apparently all of the K-4's supplied to III/JG26 were also wquipped with 20-mm guns in the hated underwing tubs."

So it would appear that they did jam often.


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Edwin Rommel
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posted 02-02-2000 06:18 AM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Herr JWC

Danke- !

I suppose the alignment of the drum feeds etc. were changed with the Me 262, 'cause I don't see the same happening there with the 30mm's?-

Thanks for the response (I did not really loose my temper- just theatrics!! )

Danke

E.R.


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DBond
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posted 02-02-2000 07:23 AM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I have spent ALOT of time in the K4 and I honestly don't remember one jam with the cannons. I'm sure there have been a few, but they are so rare that I just can't remember them. Then again, I recently flew the first 25 missions of a career in a P-51B and had all of two jams. It's all in when you choose to squeeeze the trigger.
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Opa
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posted 02-02-2000 12:28 PM     Profile for Opa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
When you're flying the K-4, you'll be getting so close to the enemy that he can feel your breath(hope you brushed your teeth) right before you open fire. The burst is NEVER longer than 1/2 second. You do NOT pull G's. So jamming should be a rather rare experience.

------------------
Der Opa


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DBond
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posted 02-02-2000 12:30 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Opa~

Precisely!


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Edwin Rommel
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posted 02-02-2000 10:29 PM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Herren

Seems zhat mit mein complaint about ze jamming, I have opened myself to comments about mein flying skill!!!

I close to about 5 metres before firing, squeeze the trigger like du vould do mit more delicate parts ob one Fifi or Bridgitte und do one pass only, and then crash, because ze motor, and most of ze airframe is scrapmetal by then! (Zo- who really cares about the jams then, you may ask?)

IMHO it is a poor, desperate effort by the RLM to have a home defense fighter packed into the wrong airframe- Herren, Ich glaube ve are going to lose ze war!

E.R.


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DBond
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posted 02-02-2000 10:34 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post

------------------
"Do not ask how strong the enemy is, but where he is to be found." Motto of the Soviet Fighter Pilot


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matttm
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posted 02-02-2000 10:54 PM     Profile for matttm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Herr Rommel!

If you get that close you could just lean over, give them a good tonguing which would cause them to go into instant shock, stall, spin and spiral into the ground causing a crater and thus saving the Fatherland valuable ammunition!!!

Matt.


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Edwin Rommel
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posted 02-02-2000 11:22 PM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
ROFLMAO!!

Ach Herr Matt!!

Nimmer thought of zhat- Hmmm- I can imagine what zhose AMI's vill react like!

Must try zhat ......

E.R.


Posts: 4399 | From: Dusty Oasis, Nord Afrika | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

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