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Author Topic: BoB Attacking HE111 - Advice Requested
D. S. Lang
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posted 12-26-1999 01:10 PM     Profile for D. S. Lang   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
In BoB, the defensive fire of the HE111's knock around my little Spit IIb every time I get close. I've tried coming from side and above. I must be doing something wrong. Noticed the AI Spits seem to float above the formation of HE111's when they attack.

Any advice
(other than buying a copy of Flanker...)

thanks,

Dave


Posts: 5 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
mane_raptor
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posted 12-26-1999 01:15 PM     Profile for mane_raptor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Have you tried coming at'em from the front? If you're a good shot you can get two or more per pass (or until you're shot down, run out of ammo or which ever comes first)

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Check six & aim for the cockpit.


Posts: 6145 | From: Maine USA, Proud Member of ELF (EAW Liberation Front) | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gen Savage
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posted 12-26-1999 01:43 PM     Profile for Gen Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I have alot of trouble in BoB with the Heinkels, too. I'm in their range long before they are in mine, and their accuracy is deadly. I'll try the head-on approach and see if I can survive.
Posts: 1642 | From: Houston, Tx USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Opa
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posted 12-26-1999 01:58 PM     Profile for Opa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Their dispersion is too low. It's not that easy to hit a fighter from a bomber. Change the dispersion. And jink.

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Der Opa



Posts: 710 | From: Sandnes, Rogaland, Norway | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
JWC
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posted 12-26-1999 11:56 PM     Profile for JWC     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I sound like a broken record: get Jeroen van Soest's EAW Aircraft Edit v1.06!!! It will let you change the dispersion of the bombers' gunfire as Opa suggests. (well, the older v1.00 will let you do that also....) v1.06 is available from the "old" EAW Downloads Page where it is listed under "Campaigns and Add-Ons". It can also be found in the "new" Downloads Page under Downloads: Add-Ons: Editors.

[This message has been edited by JWC (edited 12-27-1999).]


Posts: 1633 | From: College Station, Texas, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Emil
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posted 12-27-1999 07:19 AM     Profile for Emil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
You have to climb above the He-111 (some 1500ft - 500m) and zoom down on them from behind at a very high speed. This way your speed is far to high for an accurate defensive gunner and you can climb away fast to increase distance again after shooting. Repeat this again and again. NEVER approach the bombers directly from behind at the same altitude.
BTW I use this method also against American heavy bombers.

Posts: 578 | From: Belgium | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gen Savage
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posted 12-27-1999 09:40 AM     Profile for Gen Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
JWC and Opa: Can you give some suggested dispersion settings?
Posts: 1642 | From: Houston, Tx USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
HarryM
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posted 12-27-1999 09:46 AM     Profile for HarryM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I just started the BOB campaign and exactly the same thing happens to me. Not just me but my whole squadron gets wiped out. I can bail out and survive most of the time. (80% losses to HE-111's doesn't seem historically accurate)

I assume that the dispersion setting makes the gunners try to spray a general area and not target plane so accurately?

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"Hast du schon mit dem Teufel getanzt?"


Posts: 1130 | From: Salinas, CA USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
D. S. Lang
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posted 12-27-1999 11:59 AM     Profile for D. S. Lang   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
So far, diving from above seems best solution. Hopefully more input coming re: dispersion - I don't want to make it easier on myself because it's too hard, only if it's more accurate.

ho ho

dave


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Opa
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posted 12-27-1999 12:11 PM     Profile for Opa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, I have no idea what the "correct" setting is, I just know that the original value is too high. Experiment.

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Der Opa



Posts: 710 | From: Sandnes, Rogaland, Norway | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
JWC
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posted 12-27-1999 12:25 PM     Profile for JWC     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Whether you change the dispersion setting or not, the gunners will still aim right at you (as far as I know, that is; LOL I've never asked one of the AI bomber gunners about this )! A low dispersion setting means this: assuming that the gun is experiencing normal G forces, when that gun shoots at you, all the rounds fired remain very close to the boresight of the barrel, even at very long range. A higher dispersion setting will cause the stream of fire to "break up" more readily the farther the bullets travel away from the muzzle. In EAW the default dispersion settings give the bomber gunners an amazing (and rather unrealistic, it seems) amount of accuracy at long range. Increasing the dispersion settings for each gun position limits their accurate fire to shorter ranges. Having your aircraft hit at long range with a significant burst of fire from the bomber gunners SHOULD be a highly unlikely occurrence. With the default settings, it is not. Increasing the dispersion setting brings this more in line with real life.

As far as specific dispersion settings go, one of the contributors to this forum posted his experiments some time ago. I'll have to go back and try to find it. My own settings haven't been changed for the He111 yet--I only changed the American bombers because the only intercepts I was flying at the time were in a German career. When I get back to my own computer tonight I can check what they are and post them. I think I set mine to whatever was recommended in this forum. Hopefully they will give you a better idea of what to use.


Posts: 1633 | From: College Station, Texas, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Gen Savage
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posted 12-27-1999 09:12 PM     Profile for Gen Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, JWC. Although the only campaign I've started is BoB on the English side, I know I'll eventually suit up for the Luftwaffe and have my hands full w/overly accurate B17 fire, so your advice is appreciated.
Posts: 1642 | From: Houston, Tx USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
HarryM
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posted 12-29-1999 09:18 AM     Profile for HarryM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I used Airplane Edit and changed the dispersal on He-111 from 2.5 to 3.5. Seems about right. If you cruise fat, dumb and happy through the bombers you get smoked, but if you do a reasonably fast approach and jink you are fairly safe but will get a few plinks. Out of my 12 plane squadron lost 2, seems about right and shot down lotsa Heinkels.

Stupid Hurricane trick: had just smoked a Heinkel broke off and under him, just as he ditched his bombs! The bombs won...

------------------
"Hast du schon mit dem Teufel getanzt?"


Posts: 1130 | From: Salinas, CA USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
JWC
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posted 12-29-1999 09:24 AM     Profile for JWC     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Well the good news is that I found my dispersion settings for the B-17. The bad news is that I don't think I tried them! So I tried playing a little with the settings and am getting more confused than I was when I started! To begin with, the American bombers that give us so much trouble are shooting .30 caliber bullets at us! That's right, .30 cals. Charles Gunst increased all the dispersion settings in ECA, at least thats what I'm seeing when I use ECA Control Panel 2.0. For the He111, my quick advice is to see what the default settings are, then see if Mr. Gunst has changed anything in the ECA version. If he has, try using that as a starting point. When I was playing around with the B-17 settings, I changed the bombers' guns to .50 cal., increased the velocity to the real 2850 fps., and increased the dispersion settings. But I ran into a problem. I have almost gotten them tweaked to where I, as a "human pilot" feel pretty good about them. I keep getting smacked by a occasional single bullet from ranges of about 2500-1500 feet, but no significant damage. When I get close, I can go past the bombers at very high speed, and again it's just a few single hits. When I cruise on up to them slowly, I get battered pretty well. This would only require some more tweaking, to be perfected (I think!). So what's the problem? My staffel is losing 6-8 aircraft! Apparently, my AI staffelmates are real idiots when it comes to attacking bombers. So right now it looks like you can either give your squadron a fighting chance to survive but at the same time make it easy for yourself, or you can make it just right for you but kill the rest of your squadron! Obviously, this is a bit of a problem! I'll keep working on it.
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Lane
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posted 12-29-1999 09:35 AM     Profile for Lane   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I know I am a dummy <G>
But what is BOB?
Regards
Lane

Posts: 44 | From: Linton, In USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
JG5_Volt
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posted 12-29-1999 09:38 AM     Profile for JG5_Volt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Battle of Britain - Lane
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HarryM
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posted 12-29-1999 09:56 AM     Profile for HarryM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
The AI pilots are pretty dumb in attacking bombers. They make really bad approaches, usually not getting far enough away before turning back and then getting bad angles. They are terrible shots. They will just firehose/spray the whole group from fairly long range.

I noticed the .30 calibers on the B17s too, but didn't mess with it. There are some inconsistancies in the numbers airplane edit is displaying. On the HE-111 all numbers were 2.5, but the last group of guns had a wildly different number.

I was using airplane edit with ECA, and am a bit confused by one thing. The mods I made did seem to work, in that the Heinkels were less accurate. The appropriate planes *.flt files were updated (date/time). If I went back into Airplane Edit I saw the old values though, even though I had just changed them.

When setting the dispersion, it also makes sense to me to set the dispersion on a hand-held weapon higher than a turret mount, being that a hand-held would shake around as your firing, whereas a turret would be more stable.

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"Hast du schon mit dem Teufel getanzt?"


Posts: 1130 | From: Salinas, CA USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
JWC
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posted 12-29-1999 09:31 PM     Profile for JWC     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
First, I want to mention what settings I used earlier for the B-17:
Gun Position #1=3
Gun Position #2=3
Gun Position #3=5
Gun Position #4=4
Gun Position #5=6
Gun Position #6=6

I'll be trying with the following: 2.5, 1.5, 4, 3, 5, 5. This may be the just the arrangement for "me the human pilot" but will likely slaughter my AI mates. I have another idea, setting the dispersion much higher but doubling the gunners' rate of fire (and their ammo load). This could have the effect that the bombers' defensive fire is usually described as having: not much individual accuracy, but a "shotgun" effect. P.S. those .50 cal. hits do hurt.....

As far as the .30 cals go, I think Microprose was trying to make it tough to attack the bombers while not making it suicidal! They made the gunners super accurate, but gave them relatively puny .30 caliber MG's, and "dumbed down" ones at that (low muzzle velocity and a VERY reduced rate of fire). Still it doesn't seem quite realistic......

HarryM, I agree with you that the dispersion should be higher from flexible mountings than from turrets. Different positions should also have an effect. Theoretically, waist guns should have the most dispersion, since any bullets fired will be traveling roughly sideways to the bomber's forward path (which it is traveling on at 150-200+ mph, usually). I figure tail guns should have the least dispersion (so it SHOULD be dangerous to sit back there with a slow overtake rate).

HarryM, I think that any time you change any of the aircraft listed in ECA Control Panel 2.0, it rewrites the files. That is, all the files! I experienced the same effect and stopped it this way: once you get the settings in AE 1.06 the way you want them, DON'T reset any aircraft in Control Panel or you will get the CP default numbers. In fact, don't even open Control Panel (!) until you are finished with your experimental mission. And remember to reset the figures for the aircraft you are using if you do open Control Panel at a later date.

Try this: click on "Import Data from CDF" in Aircraft Edit. It will extract the EAW default settings. You can check to see what Charles Gunst has done (for the better, I might add) to the dispersion settings in ECA vs. the original (default) settings. DO NOT "save the changes" when you exit though! I think you will have to exit and restart AE 1.06 to get the data from the .flt files.

[This message has been edited by JWC (edited 12-29-1999).]


Posts: 1633 | From: College Station, Texas, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
HarryM
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posted 12-29-1999 10:02 PM     Profile for HarryM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Cool. Will try it out. I think I was opening the ECA control panel afterward...

Thought the same thing about the waist guns...


Posts: 1130 | From: Salinas, CA USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged

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