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Member # 125

posted 12-16-1999 12:18 PM     Profile for Opa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
There has been a lot of post since mine, and I haven't had time to read them all, but I read the reply to my SPR-post, and this is why I feel the tactics used in Ramelle were wrong: (Ignore this post if you're not interested in SPR)

1. The Tiger in the town. Any officer would know better. You don't send a tank in where you know there's infantry. Especially not in ruins. That's infantry/artillery-business.
Any one who have played Panzer General, and anyone who has served in the army knows this. The russian made these mistakes in Chechnya during the first war(94-96), and they seem to have made a similar mistake yesterday, but SS-divisions with TIGERS(only given to elite units) would not do this.
The Tiger has a 88mm-gun, which would probably have been used to shell the city before the infantry attacked.

2. The lack of artillery/mortar support before the attack. In addition to the Tiger and the Marder, the infantry should be equipped with mortars, which would be used to shell the enemies before attacking the city.

3. The unorganised attack. The german soldiers followed no plan. They seemed to just flow around in the streets, to be killed by the americans. Real german troops would have attacked much more systematically, clearing out houses as they went.

Oh, and the infantry would have lots of MG42's, like the one that german prisoner had.(Before he got captured, that is) The tactics for german infantry were mostly based on this weapon, especially attacks on cities, yet I didn't see a single weapon of this kind in Ramelle, only a rather inappropriate 20mmQ-Flak gun.

The germans were probably 17th SS-panzer

Der Opa

[This message has been edited by Opa (edited 12-16-1999).]

Posts: 710 | From: Sandnes, Rogaland, Norway | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 110

posted 12-17-1999 06:08 AM     Profile for TonyH   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Well Phil as promised.......
heres some info on the Le Paradis attrocity and other stuff...

1st recorded incident.

19 Sept. '39 Poland

An SS soldier from an artillery Reg. killed a number of jews in a synagogue. He was subsequently court martialed, the prosecutor demanding the death penalty, which was quashed.

27 May '40 France
The 1st SS panzer div. "Leibstandarte" shot members of the British Army in Wormhoudt, saying that the soldiers open fire on them after surrendering. No conclusive reports support these events, but it still remains a blot on the Divisions name. In contrast, when the "Leibstandarte" met up again with the same British Division in Greece in '41 and captured a great number of British soldiers, many of the POWS went to great pains to record their chivalrous treatment by the Waffen SS captors.

27 May France
In Le Paradis, Elements of the Totenkopf division, under command of the SS Totenkopf Standarten and not properly part of the Waffen SS at the time, captured some British soldiers from the Royal Norfolk Reg. after some vicious hand to hand fighting. The British prisioners were then shot and the bodies put inside a barn, which was then burnt down. The Wermhacht was furious at the incident and there was quite a large outcry about it in the general staff and it did nothing for the reputation of the Waffen SS among the Heer, who viewed them with dubious eyes already. General Hoepner, commander of the XVI panzer corps demanded action against the perpatrators. Court martial proceedings were again proposed, but again Himmler used his influence and the matter was dropped. The officer responsible, Obersturmfurher Fritz Knochlein, a former officer of guards in Dachau, was tried and hanged by the British after the war.

10 June '44 France, Oradour
The 2nd SS division "Das Reich" on its march north to Normandy had the unenviable task of suppressing partisan activity in the Limoges Region. Partisans had been particularly effective here especially in the town of Tulle where they had cut of the III battallion of Scherungsregiment 95. They were garison troops, not frontline troops many of which were very young. Part of "Der Furhrer" regiment of the "Das Reich" division relieved the town. There they found the bodies of 40 Scherungsregiment troops who had surrendered, then were murdered and mutilated by the partisans.
Two captured officers, obersturmfuhrer Gerlach and sturmbannfuhrer Kampfe from "Der Fuhrer" reg. were taken to Oradour by the partisans. Kampfe was shot, but Gerlach escaped and caught up with his reg. later. He reported in and sturmbannfuhrer Deikmann was dispatched with a company to investigate the town of Oradour.
Once there he gave orders for 642 people, including 200 children to be rounded up and murdered. When Deikmann got back to the regiment and reported the action, the reg. commander placed him under arrest, backed up by the Division commander Brigade Fuhrer Lammerdung, after men of the offending company swore against him. Later on Diekmann was killed and the charges were dropped. It is said that Diekmann discovered a wermhacht med. unit that had been by the partisans on their retreat to Oradour. The wounded and medics were tied up, shot and burned. If this is true, it goes someway to explaining but definately NOT condoning Diekmanns actions at Oradour.

Its interesting to note that in most cases of attrocities in the West, higher level officers tried to court martial the officers concerned and in every case I've read they were either hushed up or quashed completely.
My point in illustrating these incidents is that we must blame the individuals concerned for these actions, not the Waffen SS as a whole as was done after the war in the Nuremberg trials. I believe its important to lay the blame properly. I cannot in any way justify actions like these by any side and they were commited by all sides during the war.


Books worth reading......
SS-Hitlers Instrument of Terror- Gordon Williamson
The SS- Time Life Books
History of the WWII years- Edward Jablonski

Posts: 287 | From: Dublin, Ireland | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 368

posted 12-17-1999 06:32 AM     Profile for Phil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for that info.

I will invest in those books.

Many many horrible things happen during the war and I dont think the documented incidents even scratch the surface.


Posts: 47 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 91

posted 12-18-1999 08:34 AM     Profile for Nashwan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
As to the Germans executing prisoners, on 18 oct 42 Hitler ordered that all enemy personnel taking part in commando operations against German forces "are to be executed to the last man, wether they are soldiers wearing uniforms, or demmolition groups armed or unarmed, fighting or in flight."
This order to execute prisoners was countersigned by Field Marshall Keitel and General Jodl, and was applied on dec 13 1942 to 5 Royal Marines who had paddled up the Gironde river in kayaks and blown up 5 cargo ships in Bordeaux harbour. They were executed after capture, despite being in uniform.
Jodl and Kietel were both executed after the war. primarily for signing this order.
On the topic of films, has anyone seen cockleshell heros, which was about this incident?

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Member # 1475

posted 12-18-1999 11:08 PM     Profile for Doug8888   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Spielberg should make a movie on the war experience of Jack Ilfrey. It reads like fiction, but is true.

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Member # 546

posted 12-19-1999 12:59 AM     Profile for buz13   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I guess sim flyers never watch Masterpiece Theatre. You won't find a better story than "Piece of Cake".....if you can't afford the series of tapes, read the book, a masterpiece also. Then try the WWI version of the same basic story "Goshawk Squadron", book only---(would make one hell of a movie).
Funny nobody mentioned "Deer Hunter"....not actually a flying movie but some helos. My other choices:
Battle of Britian
12 O'clock High
All The Fine Young Men (TV)
Tora Tora Tora
Naval - Das Boot
Land War WWI - Paths of Glory
All Quiet on the Western Front

Posts: 385 | From: Seattle, WA USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 125

posted 12-19-1999 05:38 AM     Profile for Opa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I remember Piece of Cake, I just didn't remember the name...
Better than Battle of Britain, IMO

Der Opa

Posts: 710 | From: Sandnes, Rogaland, Norway | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 1487

posted 12-19-1999 02:38 PM     Profile for slicer2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I agree with RossC..the Mustang flyby just makes the hairs on the back of my neck rise every time I see it...flown I believe in the film by Ray Hannah of The Old Flying Machine Company based At Duxford UK , father of the late Mark Hannah. Both superlative exponents of the art of display flying WW2 fighters..I consider myself privileged to have seen them both fly on many occasions and if you havent seen a Ray Hannah looooow pass in a P51 or F4U then you haven't lived.

P51 Mustang......Cadillac of the skies.


Posts: 71 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged

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