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Author Topic: Flying help please
Member # 59

posted 10-04-1999 03:42 PM     Profile for Slapphead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I have started using flaps quite often when dogfighting in a turn,where my speed starts to drop below 180 knots (for example),and it means getting that little "extra" to gain an firing solution on my opponents.
Also,when in that low slow situation,to stop me from stalling,and sometimes at the top of a loop where the speed drops off:lets say your following a bandit,climbing with him,going up into and past the vertical,but your nose is not quite high enough to get a shoot on him,the speed is dropping,so I kick in some flaps to get that little extra lift to give me a firring solution( although it only last a second or so)feather back on stick ,retract the flaps to pick up speed (going down into vertical),and so on...

Questions are:
Is it ok to use flaps in combat?(quick fix/doing something wrong).

Did the real WW2pilots use there flaps in dogfights?

What is the optimum speed/turn rate?(around 200 knot?)

When sending a message on the zone to everyone whilst you are flying,what is the
"talk to everyone" key you should press.

What are the pros/cons of using the ECA upgrade?

I fly the spit IXC.

Any help advice would be verry much appreciated

Posts: 1148 | From: london/uk | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 313

posted 10-04-1999 05:41 PM     Profile for VonGunn     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
1. Yes it is alright and completely recommended that you use any and all available resources to gain the edge in combat. If flaps help use them.

2. Yes they did, especially P-51 and P-38 pilots. They were field modified for combat flaps. Essentially 10` of flaps. This setting allowed you to turn better, not stall as fast, but also allowed you to retract quickly so as not to damage them by to high an airspeed.

3. Depends largely on the airframe and wingloading of the aircraft you are flying. the higher the wingloading the faster the airspeed for the quickest turn "nose moving the most degrees per second" best way to find the "sweet speed" is to set up a series of 180 deg turns at different airspeeds. Notice what speed gives you the fastest turn rate. also preform at low, med and high alt because these speeds will change given different density altitudes

4.the tilde or ~ key

5. IMHO ECA improves FM and gunnery realism. adds alot of neat varients of airframes. downside is that you have a hard time of it on the zone. "file checker" won't let you fly because your .flt file is different from the rest.

Hope this helps some


Posts: 377 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 72

posted 10-04-1999 10:18 PM     Profile for LLv34_Snefens   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
And for some great flying tips you should also check out this site. Created by a guy who is so far undefeated on the EAW Challenge-Ladder.

Posts: 329 | From: Aarhus, Denmark | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 86

posted 10-04-1999 10:38 PM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Some additional info per the EAW readme text.
The combat flaps for the P-51 and 38 can be deployed at speeds up to 350-425mph. Normal flaps can be damaged if deployed or left deployed at speeds greater than 250mph. I have noticed at least when landing that you will get a warning when trying to lower flaps at speeds much over 200mph.BTW, I haven't flown the P-38 much, but if you are a Mustang jock, combat flaps are an essential part of combat flying. Unfortunately I learned this the hard way. I,m still not good at flying the 51. IMO if you can master this bird of prey, you da man!

[This message has been edited by Tailspin (edited 10-04-1999).]

Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kurt Plummer
Member # 358

posted 10-04-1999 10:39 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Hey Slappy,

Even before ECA, the latest (MProse) patch should preclude operation of flaps at 'combat speeds' (or perhaps 'combat proximity'?) by all but the named planes VGun gave you.

In any case, the only time I ever heard a WWII vet talk about using flaps was an old P-51 jock (Kitringen or Kitriger or something like that) who had really got his fangs out in a dogfight with an Me-109 which he had chased all the way down to low altitude.
Seems they ended up in a knife circle going 'round and 'round when he 'suddenly remembered' and used the flaps to start gaining for the kill. He was _stupid_ in entering such a prolonged battle and admitted as much when he said his first-worry was an external bounce.

Not to be arrogant but use of flaps is a /lift/ bias gambit that has ZERO relevance to the high speed fight that is the _only_ 'sweet zone' you want to be flying in against multiple human opponents and especially with a human wingman to help you.

High Speed you fight-by-G, whatever the height, and though the propjobs didn't typically have the either the power or the instrument indication to give you a 'straight' or for-AOA G clue; you can generally tell within a second or two (by relative crossing rates) whether a guy is gonna beat you for lead and so if you should try for a snapshot or lag out and possiby use a /small/ out of lane move to stay inside the radii on a high crossing secondary opportunity.

If, at the end of this second attempt, you can't latch to at least to his 3-9, you should unload and extend whilst having your wingman take advantage of the defensive Lufberry wheel/break you've likely forced the badguy into.

Again, props simply don't have the umph (for drag) to 'play up' from an endless, horizontal, circle like jets do.

Certainly, in the instance you mention, the 109 will be VERY nose heavy coming back down and it's pilot will be fighting that with a small stick throw trying to remain 'unpredictable' (defensive) or 'tracking aggressive' (nose-on-you) with his Immelman exit to the half loop.

This means a shallower spiralling climb on YOUR part will keep your deflection constantly changing on his own nose point selection with a higher-sustained energy value for chasing when finally brings that damn DB-605 /brick/ back below the horizon.

I should also mention that the Spitfire is -unmatched- for the spiral-climbing turn.

If he's /not/ at zero energy himself and you chase him until you are, YOU are _screwed_.

Becase in real life, going vertical to zero airspeed and /then/ popping flaps is asking for a pitch authority change that can 'solidify' the elevator effectiveness on nose point (deflection for that snap guns lead equation) at the same time acting like speed brakes even as the effective airfoil AOA is changing.

Such that you may very well depart completely as the last bit lift leaves the wing. Add a little roll and you're spun as well.

Do this 'very often' (once) and the guy up-top will simply drop onto your tail and gun your brains out while you twirl downwards.

It's gonna be a long war. There is absolutely no such thing a 1v.1 'chivalry' but there /will be/ plenty of targets...

SURVIVE (and _use_ your wingman to tag team the other guy's energy account).

Kurt Plummer

Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 59

posted 10-04-1999 11:35 PM     Profile for Slapphead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Invaluable information chaps

Thankyou all for your passing on your wisdom and for being so helpfull.

Much apreciated.

Posts: 1148 | From: london/uk | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 313

posted 10-05-1999 11:05 AM     Profile for VonGunn     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post

Not to be rude or anything but if the use of flaps have "ZERO" revelance to WWII combat then why were the 51 and 38 modified to employ combat flap in the real thing??

Why does the training films the army airforce dated 1944 instruct the pilots to USE combat flaps to gain an edge in a fight???

I am of the opinion that 90% of you comments are not applicable to low power/weight aircraft ie Piston Engined aircraft, but are right out of Red Flag and F-16 school. You cannot hope to apply afterburning jet combat tactics to a prop jobby and expect to win. A life saving manuver by BF-109e pilots was a shallow dive gaining airspeed to extend then using their superior rate of climb to leave a spit or hurri in the "dust" Apply that to modern fighters and you'll get a missle up your butt. Most american built aircraft were Energy fighters. This means keeping your aircraft with an Altitude advantage and an airspeed advantage. The immelmen, yo-yo and sissors are winning manuvers in these aircraft and do require the operation of the flaps correctly to modifiy the turn rates. It works. If it didn't the said planes would not have been so equiped.



Posts: 377 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

posted 10-05-1999 12:56 PM       Edit/Delete Post
Hey, Vongunn, dont shoot him. Hes just a writer trying to win a award.
IP: Logged
Member # 352

posted 10-05-1999 09:18 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
How come sims do not model trim correctly? In EAW it doesnt exist, and in WWII Fighters it only has trim on, or trim off settings. This is a very important factor in flying planes, yet its always left out. Anyone know why?
Posts: 635 | From: Knoxville, TN. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

posted 10-07-1999 02:05 AM       Edit/Delete Post
EAW models flaps wrong, but they are needed to stay flying, and manuvering at low speed.

Dogfighting is just too dynamic to explain in words.


It's abut riding the trasitions, knowing how to convert, the most important thing is transitions in rolling loop manuvers.. (immel, cuban 8, barrel)..and spiral diving/climbing.

It'd like balancing on the head of a pin, but like riding in a bowl, all at the same time.


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Hun Hunter
Member # 448

posted 10-07-1999 04:45 AM     Profile for Hun Hunter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I'm brand new to EAW. Once I get a decent stick I might even be able to finally load up my copy! (see post elsewhere). In the mean time could anyone recommend anywhere on the net that details the basic manoeuvers mentioned in Pashas post.

Any tips gratefully received.

Posts: 1304 | From: In a water tight cavern under Sydney Harbour Bridge | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Edwin Rommel
Member # 357

posted 10-07-1999 05:44 AM     Profile for Edwin Rommel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Herr Hun Hunter

( I shudder every zime I use zat Name !!!)

Try Major Lee's Airdrome-
and If you feel really brave- come und fly with ze "real men"

Vatch sechs!
Ps. You might also find ze " Realism settings- what sez you?" thread useful- Be prepared to learn to fly "all-over" once you have EAW up und runnink !

[This message has been edited by Edwin Rommel (edited 10-07-1999).]

Posts: 4399 | From: Dusty Oasis, Nord Afrika | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

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