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Author Topic: Battle Of Britain: Tech
Fearshot
unregistered

posted 07-12-2000 09:44 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi all,

I'm currently working on Rowan's new offering (Battle of britain), and I need some info.

1) Cockpit shake: Would level gun platforms such as the Spit and the hurricane have major cockpit skake when all the 303's were firing?. Would this also effect control, i.e some sort of negative drift?. (this also applies to the the 109 and the 110)

2) Anyone know the actual performance differences between the 109 and Spit?

3) What number was tracer in the average 3 second burst of fire?, (both sides related)

If you can help, I would really be thankful

Fearshot: Assistant producer: Battle of Britain

Ps

More questions may come:}


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Hindu
unregistered

posted 07-12-2000 11:51 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Whats the difference? Nobody's interested in this game anyway. I might buy it but only after it makes its way into the bargain bin at Walmart which should be two weeks after its release.
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patriotSTORM
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posted 07-12-2000 04:35 PM     Profile for patriotSTORM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Do us all a favour and ignore Hindu....I for one am keen on this sim, and the fact that you are asking the sim audience makes it even more attractive.

From reading pilot accounts, I believe that firing machine guns did affect flight performance. In Douglas Baders book, I recall somewhere when he stalled after firing machine guns when in a steep climb. The tank busting Hurricane used in the desert (no idea of it's official name) could only fire a few rounds at a time from it's huge cannons or it would slow down too much. Hope this helps - looking forward to your next questions

All the best

------------------
With a heart of furious fancies,
Whereof I am commander,
With a burning spear and a horse of air,
To the wilderness I wander
-Tom O’Bedlams Song


Posts: 404 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lucky_1
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posted 07-12-2000 07:41 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
No offense but, why is the developer of the game asking "US" these questions?

Shouldn't we be asking him?

Shouldn't he be doing research like the developers at Wayward did?

How many of us have ever been in a Spit and fired the guns, or any warbird for that matter? So how can anyone here honestly answer those questions, except for someone reading from a personal account or making something up.

Just wondering.

------------------
Two beers, or not two beers. There is no question.


Posts: 635 | From: Knoxville, TN. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Fearshot
unregistered

posted 07-13-2000 02:59 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I will ignore Hindu's comment as I can't be bothered to make a reply. Thanks to Patriot some good info here. To answer lucky_1: All tech data at present on the Spit and Me109 is generally speculation as there was so many marks of both. I've asked the questions just to clarify and maybe get some feedback on some of these issues. We have done our homework and are continuing to do so, but we want to make sure on this one, we can get it wrong! . I valued all discussion on the Forums when I was working on Comanche Hokum and I feel we got it right, I would like it to be the same for BOB. On Wayward front they are doing an excellent job on their sim, and I am personally looking forward to it!, but we all work differently....well I hope we do . And at the end of the day we are creating a game for the simmer, so I for one value anything you have to say as you are the audience we are designing for.

God, didn't mean to come over all 'Higher then thou'..


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wakinyan
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posted 07-13-2000 05:45 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Simply because yu asked such thinks here, be sure that I´ll purchase your product as soon as it will be available, and will try to convince as many of my friends as I can to do so.

Thanks a lot!

For the answers any real prop pilot could answer better than any of those "computer hardcore simmer truth-owners", I think.


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PM
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posted 07-13-2000 08:28 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Same here - the fact you are asking these questions to the audience (us) convinces me. I am a great fan of the BOB - I'll by your product as soon as I can.

PS: great job on Comanche/Hokum!!


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Richthoven
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posted 07-13-2000 11:52 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I thought C/H was Razorworks and BOB is Rowan. Have you moved on in the world?
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Apache9
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posted 07-13-2000 12:11 PM     Profile for Apache9   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Good lord, Fearshot you are pathetic. I can understand that the lack of any interest regarding BoB has you nervous but to come here and and attempt to create some artificial hype about your game is about as low as you can get. So we're all supposed to beleive that after monthes in development you guys don't yet know the performance differences between Me-109's and spitfires? Sure there are some gullible people here like wakinyan and Patriotstorm but to the rest of us it's pretty obvious what you're trying to do. I would suggest that you refrain from further "propaganda" posts because at best they insult our intelligence and at worst could lead to a backlash by consumers who buy flight sims. Instead of trying to create fake enthusiasm for a game that has none I'd suggest you work more on creating a sim that will generate its own excitement. I see that wakinyan and PM are unregistered. Hmmm...maybe they're not gullible, maybe its just more fake bull**** from you. Bring on the bombers and do this thing right or don't do it at all!!

[This message has been edited by Apache9 (edited 07-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Apache9 (edited 07-13-2000).]


Posts: 54 | From: hsladfs,sdf,s | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Fishbed77
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posted 07-13-2000 04:07 PM     Profile for Fishbed77   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fearshot, maybe you should post this in the European Air War forum. They tend to be more mature than the jokers here and I am sure they would be glad to help you. Good luck, as I am looking foreward to Battle of Britain, seeing as MiG Alley is one of the finest flight sims ever. Now how do I convince you folks to get to work on a Pacific theatre WWII sim?
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Lud von Pipper
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posted 07-13-2000 05:00 PM     Profile for Lud von Pipper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As for the performance difference between 109 and the spit, I'd suggest you to give a look in the ECAOnline site, for EAW ( http://www.geocities.com/weurger/main.htm ).
In the "Performance charts" link, (first one high on the left) there are some very detailed and well done graphics infos about different aircrafts performances.
It will be a pain if you plan to follow them closely, but this would makes of BoB the most accurate simulation of 1940 fighter planes ever done: I hope you will take the chance
LvP


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Fearshot
unregistered

posted 07-14-2000 02:50 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, some interesting responses , Thankyou to all who have been constructive and I will surely look into it!. I feel sad and alittle confused that some think that this is some hype ploy. Its strange the varied responses i have got, some are happy about being asked about an up and coming game, while others think this is some way of generating sales!...SHEESH!. The questions I asked are for personal reasons, Rowan have thus far done an excellent job on the flight physics and I have read much on this topic. I just needed some comfirmation for myself!. But I'm afraid I am tired of justifing myself.

Thanks again for all the help!


Ps

I work for Empire so I work on most of their projects i.e Comanche, Mig, BoB...(As sims are my hobby....and some say my life!)


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Major Tom
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posted 07-14-2000 03:54 AM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hmm...

It is obvious that Fearshot is an employee of Rowan that flew Battle of Britain. To think that he is in charge of physics modeling or anything of that nature is ludicrous; not to mention shows a lack of imagination.

There will be no full bomber simulation in BOB because simulation pilots would simply not be up to the task of delivering bombs on target in such primitive bomber aircraft (by B-17/24/25/26 standards.)

From what I've learned Battle of Britain is pretty much going for the same level of realism B-17II is when it comes to aircraft systems. Full systems management in a spitfire, 109 or Stuka might be more than a chore. The Bf.110 might prove to be a mighty complicated aircraft to fly.

Remember, the very best pilots the Luftwaffe had where sent to fly the bombers, only they where up to the task. Fighter pilots really came second, and it showed. Trust me, you do not want to fly a Ju.88, Do.17 or He.111 in realistic conditions.

You do have the option of going on a tour as a gunner, admittedly the most fun job one could have in high fidelity flight simulator like BOB. There will be plenty of things to shoot at and it will take skill. BOB simulates raids realistically, on some raids nearly every plane the LW and RAF have will be up in the air.

I have a feeling that we would get more of the same "broken aircraft" messages on an upcoming Battle of Britain forum just like we get on the MiG Alley forum if BOB had bombers. Only they would be sort of the opposite...

"When I move my stick full left the stupid He.111 takes what seems like 5 seconds to begin to actually turn! Is this sim broken?"

"The controls feel sluggish all the time in the bombers, no matter how frantically I move the stick the bomber takes ages to respond!"

And we would get more of the same...

"I tried to pull out of a 400mph dive in the 109 and the wings ripped off, does the 109 FM suck?"

"The spitfire keeps stalling with the controls full back, this bites!"

“I turn at 300mph and I hear creaking followed by massive structural failure…is the FM busted?”

Rowans BOB needs no hype, it simulates the entire Battle of Britain. I haven't been this excited about a sim since I saw Il-2 at E3! It gave B-17II a thrashing!

...In short gentlemen beware of the Hun in the sun and I'll be seeing you over Dover in my Bf.110C-4!


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Fearshot
unregistered

posted 07-14-2000 06:05 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
SIGH!

I feel I am for ever digging myself deeper into this 'I look to no nothing' attitude. I appoligise if I have accidently annoyed some off the readers here (not sure why!). I seem to have come over all wrong, and I perhaps shed a bad light on BoB, this is my error!.

Major Tom, would you be interested in getting in contact with me?, I leave this at your discretion.

Said my piece, I will leave it at that!....God shot down in flames or what

'Never fly straight and narrow for more then 30 seconds'

On a personal note: Major Tom, I look forward to meeting over the cliffs in your 110, when you are in a defensive circle trying vainly to out fly me in my Spit!


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Ben J
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posted 07-14-2000 11:18 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fearshot,
Next time, may I sugest that you differentiate between personal inquiries and questions that you are asking on behalf of your company. As Apache said, I would take it as a mark of mismanagement if Rowan had not by this time already fully researched the subjects of which you asked. Now that I understand your position, I respect it, and may I say that I am looking forward to this sim in a serious way.
Ben J
PS - Sorry I can't answer your questions myself, but whomever mentioned asking Warbirds guys has a good point - that sim has had years of R&D put in already.

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ral
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posted 07-14-2000 07:57 PM     Profile for ral   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fearshot:

Sorry, about the reception you got on these boards. It is like a vipers pit here sometimes. After Mig Alley, what did you exect..the yank and banker's got pissed of because they kept on ripping their wings off ...needed somewhere to take out their frustrations.

Don't have any of the info you requested.

Hope BoB comes out soon...got MiG Alley last August without waiting for any reviews based on gut feel...will do the same with BoB.

Major Tom:

rotfl...Sierra Hotel Major Tom


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Buzz Man
unregistered

posted 07-15-2000 02:21 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
mmmmm.......

Looks to me as though a lot of you don't respect the way these companys are asking what you would like in a game and help them in any way possible. After all, we are the ones who are going to be playing these games, and we should respect these companies for asking us what we would like to see. mmmm, it's real hard to make you little bastards happy.

On a more pleasant note, I am personally looking forward to this game, as the Battle of Britain was a real turning point in the War which overall changed the outcome. If the British and American pilots hadn't put their lives on the line as they did we would all be speakin 'pig latin' and growing little french ticklers!!!

Keep the good work up ROWAN!


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scythe
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posted 07-15-2000 11:03 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've just seen some screen-shot of BoB and i looks great. Its also good the designers are asking what we want for a change. Just a few points though;

1) there were no amercians at the battle of Britian. The BoB occurred during june - september 1940. The Americans didnt help till 1941 and still that was financial aid. After september hitler gave up trying to invade Britain and turned his attension to the USSR, hoping by destroying them would make Britain give up. American planes can in later using Britain as a lauch pad to Bomb Occupided france and germany.

2) This is to Rowan, if your really interested in finding out what the physics of flying/firing spitfires and huricanes. There are still some flying, i've seen some at airshows, i sugest you get in contact with the RAF.


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JayJ
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posted 07-15-2000 05:45 PM     Profile for JayJ   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
scythe: "there were no amercians at the battle of Britian. The BoB occurred during june - september 1940. The Americans didnt help till 1941 and still that was financial aid."


Nope, that is incorrect. There were American's in the BOB...eight of them. I'm quoting out of the book "The Battle of Britain" by Richard Houge and Denis Richards:

"As early as mid-July the RAF, anticipating severe pilot shortages, let American newspaper correspondents know 'the Royal Air Force is in the market for American flyers as well as American airplanes. Experienced airmen, preferably those with at least 250 hours of flying hours to their credit, would be welcomed by the RAF,' ran a report in the New York Herald Tribune of 14 July. All they had to do was cross into Canada, pas a physical examination and sign on: no swearing an oath to the British crown, it was emphasized."

"One pilot in particular named Jimmy Davis was commisioned into the RAF before the war broke out and served in 79 Squadron (Hurricane's). There was also E.Q "Red" Tobin, Andrew 'Andy' Mamedoff and V.C. 'Shorty' Keogh. By August 8th, these three had been posted to Middle Wallop airfield and were transferred into the first Eagle Squadron's when it was formed in late September. These three were all killed later in the war and of the eight American's that served originally serving in Fighter Command up to August 1940, only one survived - J.K. Haviland (DFC)."


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Lucky_1
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posted 07-15-2000 08:07 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The guy who wrote the immortal sonnet, "High Flight", Frank McGee Jr. Was an American who snuck into the Canadien Air Force and fought in the BoB. Unfortunately, he was killed when his Spitfire mid-aired with another plane.

And don't forget the "Eagle" squadrons which fought there also.

------------------
Two beers, or not two beers. There is no question.


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Richthoven
unregistered

posted 07-15-2000 08:37 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

Just a few random comments

The display at Hendon is quite informative re. RAF pilots and the BOB (also Len Deighton's book "Fighter" is an excellent account) I think the gist of the comments was that though few Yank pilots were involved in the BOB, the role of the US pilot schools in training a largely amateur airforce was invaluable(the RAF encouraged a few by flying in clubs prewar and then brought these people onto the front line but the bulk had to be trained from scratch)I think though that the role of the commonwealth pilots(partic Canada was vital to the effort) It also appears that there were quite a few Polish pilots but I never understood how they arrived in GB after the invasion of Poland.


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dw
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posted 07-16-2000 01:15 PM     Profile for dw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
there were no amercians at the battle of Britian

There were 7 American pilots in the RAF, which also had pilots from Poland, New Zealand, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, South Africa, Australia, France, Ireland, Southern Rhodesia, Jamaica and Palestine.


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DBond
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posted 07-16-2000 06:10 PM     Profile for DBond   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The question I have is what role Empire has in the development of BoB. As publisher, I would think they have little to do with the making of the game. Perhaps my point is invalid, but I though developers develop, and publishers publish. Does Empire really have a role in the development of this title? Somehow, this thread just doesn't feel right.
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Apache9
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posted 07-16-2000 06:49 PM     Profile for Apache9   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You can say that again!
Posts: 54 | From: hsladfs,sdf,s | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
thrillkill
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posted 07-17-2000 12:17 AM     Profile for thrillkill   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Where are some sites where I can access some screenshots/details of this great sounding simulator??
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Iain riches
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posted 07-17-2000 02:34 AM     Profile for Iain riches   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks for all the info guys!

To answer a couple of questions: A lot of the Polish pilots flew from Poland after the invasion of their homeland to France to continue the fight. From there they went to England as things got from bad to worse! The first all polish squadrons became operational about 2 months into the battle, when their instructors couldn't control them any more!)

Eagle squadron didn't become operational until after the battle, late 40-41. They started their combat tours with fighter sweeps and escort missions.

Thanks again

Fearshot


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Major Tom
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posted 07-17-2000 04:16 AM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fearshot, I would be interested in contacting you, what's your position in Rowan? Got an E-mail address?

The Bf.110C-4 works best when kept high and fast, things the spitfire has trouble doing! Beware the Hun in the Sun.

"Gain Altitude and Use it!"

Falcon Airfield down in Phoenix was built for the training of British pilots, it opened in September 1941, and they have the RAF bell displayed in the Champlin Aircraft Museum. Construction of the field started when the Battle of Britain broke out.

For one and a half years US Aid amounted to the aid a few concerned private citizens. Namely North American Aviation, the Eagle Squadron and 25,000 concerned American firearms owners. And for nearly a year after that there was hardly any official US aid to Britain in the form of pilots or any other combat personnel. Any American fighting for Britain between the summer of 1940 and 1942 was pretty much there of his own free will.

Of the 244 American pilots in the RAF Eagle Squadrons, 77 where killed along with 5 of the 16 high ranking British officers leading them. This is all before the 8th AF got into full swing.

All gave some, some gave all.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Iain riches
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posted 07-17-2000 07:20 AM     Profile for Iain riches   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

I'm looking forward to meeting you over the skys .....but you are right about the 110...you can out dive me....but you could never out turn me. I just hope I wouldn't get in the way of your guns or it would be all she wrote! . Its the 109's I would be really worried about...with there fuel injected engines I would stall in a climb a long time before they would!

'Never fly straight and narrow for more than 30 seconds'

Cheers

Fearshot

[This message has been edited by Iain riches (edited 08-03-2000).]


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Dietger
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posted 07-17-2000 01:24 PM     Profile for Dietger   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mr. Iain riches

I just send some scans about the 109 data to the mail adress below - I hope this helps.

mailto:[email protected]

IM looking forward to this sim ,
if you need more info just contact me
[email protected]

Best Regards Dietger Pohl


Posts: 112 | From: Konstanz,Germany | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Australian
unregistered

posted 07-19-2000 07:47 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
FEARSHOT... PLEASE INCLUDE A 'DOPPLER' SOUND EFFECT ON FLY-BY VIEW: THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST EXHILARATION EFFECTS OF JANE'S WW2 FIGHTERS AND LACKING FROM EVERY PROP SIM I HAVE TRIED INCLUDING EUROPEAN AIR WAR, FIGHTER SQUADRON, NATIONS:FIGHTER COMMAND, MS COMBAT FLIGHTSIM, AND EVEN FROM ROWAN'S EXCELLENT MIG ALLEY. LOOKING FORWARD TO BATTLE OF BRITAIN ABSOLUTELY. THE CUMULUS CLOUDS PROPOSED ARE ONE OF THE KEY ELEMENTS THAT MADE WW2 FIGHTERS SUCH A HIGH-WATER MARK. PLEASE GET BACK TO ME: [email protected]
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RossC
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posted 07-19-2000 11:19 AM     Profile for RossC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
MT, the elite of the Luftwaffe fighter corps were assigned to 110's (much like the creme de la creme were assigned to Stuka units), and they were not successful during the Battle. Simply not a very good fighter, which had been demonstrated as early as the Battle of France (Fighter Pilot, by Paul Richey), when it had trouble with early-mark Hurricanes carrying two-blade fixed pitch props.

I'll be confining myself to the cockpits of British machines, unless I'm feeling particularly suicidal, when I'll take up the belly position in a 111 Oh, unless they have the Blenheims that were stuck in a dayfighter unit, or Defiants. In that case, I'll try them out first and die for the good of the Commonwealth.

I'm also very much looking forward to this sim...


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Sporko
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posted 07-19-2000 10:18 PM     Profile for Sporko   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fearshot,

What is the point of asking your initial questions? You are not very clear as to whether you are gathering info to improve your sim with or for your own knowledge? As an assistant producer for BoB I would think you would have access to information on BoB that we could only dream of.

It doesn't look like your questions were answered here. Maybe a forum dedicated to WW2 air battle would be a better place to ask.


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Iain riches
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posted 07-20-2000 03:31 AM     Profile for Iain riches   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sporko

I admit my orignial questions seemed to have been answered.....slightly!. But the information I have gleened is allways useful. I have been to other sights mentioned in this forum and they have been very useful. Thanks to you all....Pro&Negative

Fearshot

Ps

Have you seen the 'five things about rowan's BoB.......' OUCH!....Each to their own, but some valid points!


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Australian
unregistered

posted 07-20-2000 09:41 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
FEARSHOT, WHAT ABOUT THAT DOPPLER SOUND EFFECT FOR THE FLY-BY VIEW?
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patriotSTORM
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posted 07-21-2000 12:47 AM     Profile for patriotSTORM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Iain Riches - perhaps you would be better off reading first hand accounts from fighter pilots of the era. Just go down to the local library, and you can find A LOT of books which have either extracts, or are biographies. More accurate than a forum where people's only experience at flying Spits is in CFS or EAW!

All the best

------------------
With a heart of furious fancies,
Whereof I am commander,
With a burning spear and a horse of air,
To the wilderness I wander
-Tom O’Bedlams Song


Posts: 404 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Hindu
unregistered

posted 07-24-2000 11:34 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fearshot, you are an idiot. Living in England all you have to do is contact a living veteran Spitfire pilot. Most are in their mid 80's but in between drooling on themselves I'm sure they can prove helpful in getting the information you're asking for. Unless you just came here to promote BoB for free without buying advertising space from Combatsim.
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Iain riches
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posted 07-25-2000 07:31 AM     Profile for Iain riches   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
LOL Hindu! I really can't be bothered to reply!

LOL

Fearshot


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JayP
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posted 07-25-2000 09:10 AM     Profile for JayP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If you want to know how a Spitfire handles, you'd probably be better off asking the guys who fly them for the RAF's Battle of Britain Flight.
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scythe
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posted 07-25-2000 03:39 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
hey fearshot it might be you lucky day.
i was watching that documentary about the pilots of wwII, when i rerembered about a series of books my mum has sorred in my cuboard. They have loads of information about the aviation world and quite a bit about ww2. I've had a quick look and theres tactics used, instrustion leaflets from the time. Account from actual pilots, of combat, trainning, how the planes handled and fired etc.

If you want i can scan some of this info for you to look at.

just give me a e-mail and ill send you a sample of it.


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h.arrier
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posted 07-26-2000 02:11 PM     Profile for h.arrier   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think you should be able to contact either
Ray Hannah at the old flying machine company at Duxford, or S/L (poss W/C) Day at the battle of britain memorial flight...in fact 'the major'
at bbmf is probably your best bet as he has been the 'fighter' leader there and has loads of hours on spits of all marks.

B.B.M.F.
R.A.F. CONINGSBY
Tattershall
Lincs


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