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Author Topic: WW2F and EAW
[email protected]
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posted 02-04-2000 02:05 PM     Profile for Indianer@6   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Folks
I think also it's a bigger Challenge to survive in WW2F.I have a lot of Books and Magazines about the Air War(It's my Passion)
and there you can find that the late models
of 109 and 190 was to heavy for Dogfighting.
For this Reason the P-47(also heavy but with
greather Wings and less Pressure on this Wings)was able to survive in a Turnfight.
Another deficiency of the 109 = it was impossible to reach a Speed over 650-700 Km/h in a Dive with healthy Results for the
Pilot.(The Rudders didnt work on this Speed)
From this Point of View the FM and AI of WW2F is close as possible to the real Circumstances at this time.Only this Campaign Mode like in EAW is missing to me.
In EAW it depends on Type of Campaign.I played a 1943-45 Campaign starting on Me 110
and reequipped with Me 262 in Spring 1945.
As Kommodore the whole Geschwader follows me in the right Position and wait for my Order
to engage the Enemy.The allied Fighter Pilots tried to do their best to save the
Bombers(Wow,big Pulks of Fortresses or Liberators).All this was okay for my Opinion.But on some Battle of Britain or Fighter Sweep Missions as Leutnant i had
after 2 Minutes a complete Spit Squadron behind me and you can guess what happens to me.My Comrades turned around me but no one
of them engages a Spitfire and it seems that all Spits only looked for me,very strange.
By the Way,i don't know a Propsim where the
AI Planes would have the same Restrictions like me.They allways are faster,can better climb and have Engines which can't be to hot.
I have a Celeron 450 ;-),96 Megs RAM,SB Live Value,Voodoo2 SLI,Elsa Erazor II(TNT,8Mb on Board).I play in 1024x768 on this Voodoos
(with Clouds in WW2F sometimes Slide Show)
and have to say that this DX7 Voodoo2 Drivers doesnt work with EAW!
Sorry for my "german" english!


Posts: 11 | From: Erfurt,Germany | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Greif
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posted 02-05-2000 02:58 AM     Profile for Greif   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I can tell a little story about the "artificial" intelligence in Janes WW2F: I set up an escort mission, and tried to hit a Allied division first with a bunch of V1s, followed by Ar234s to strike the Flak after the V1 attack, to get the Fw190s to the tanks. To my surprise, the V1s dived on the tanks, and did a pop-up manouver, exactly like after releasing bombs. Not enough, they returned to base, and - exploded on the runway. Dem war so Ultrakrass (impossible to translate, folks ), that I restarted the mission, and just followed the V1s with same results. London would have been a better place in 1944 with this kind of V1 AI.
By the way, as I fly a little bit longer, online flying has become the the real challenge for me. I do my "rehersals" in WW2F offline, and try to give a good performance online.
Maybe we`ll meet , so check your six

CuiH

Greif

[This message has been edited by Greif (edited 02-05-2000).]


Posts: 41 | From: Stuttgart, Deutschland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Peter Fisla
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posted 02-05-2000 08:36 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Greif,

Where do you go play on-line with WW2F ?
I would like to try, it would be my first
time...

Thanks

Peter


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15./JG51
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posted 02-05-2000 01:11 PM     Profile for 15./JG51   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I known that the last versions of the 109 and 190 was more heavier than previous ones, but,at least for the 109, still being lighter than the P-51 i.e.In fact, the 109G-6 is lightest plane in WW2F.
There are only two good dogfighters in this game: 1st, the incredible Spitfire; 2nd th 109G-6. The P-47 had too many limitations for dogfight, the difference was the pilots on each side.
I still thinking that WW2F is a very good arcade, and the reasons are the next:
- the FM is very easy even in the maximun level. There are no stalls or spins, I only get a shaking plane 2 seconds. The maneuvers are over-modeled, and the FM of the planes usually converge (i.e. the Spit has the same flap positions than the other planes -unreal for all-).
- the AI, oh la la, the AI... All enemy fighters have an outstanding gunnery, almost incredible even for Marseille or Mölders. I can see enemy planes flying with a half wing, and when I lost half wing I engage the autopilot and still flying straight.
- campaigns: I don't want to talk about this theme. I only can say that it's very frustate combat 30 minutes, achieving 5 kills and the mission is a failure because some plane ditched and it's not counted as a true kill.
Of course that EAW is not perfect: the enemy AI never stall or spin(even at 0mph), the attack skills of enemy is very limited (they make good approachs to their targets and many times turn out without shot any round), and the campaign isn't perfect (the bomber formations cross all Germany and the unique interception is yours), and the graphics are very poor (but even WW2F has some limitations: lack of polys, the tail gear is a bitmap and all planes have the same incorrect head-armour), but this sim makes me feel a real combat pilot.
WW2F has a real good thing: the land combats. There are a lot of different vehicles and they are fully animated.
I'm waiting for B-17II and Il-2. I want to see what can they show me.

I've K-6 400, 128 RAM and a Monster 3D 2 with 8MB.
Ivan, ex-staffelkapitan of 15./JG 51.


Posts: 30 | From: ESPAÑA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Greif
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posted 02-05-2000 01:20 PM     Profile for Greif   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Fisla:
[B]Greif,

>Where do you go play on-line with WW2F ?

Hi Peter,

Go to www.janes.ea.com and look for "janes combat Net. There you have the possibility to play most Janes games free.

Cu there!

Greif


Posts: 41 | From: Stuttgart, Deutschland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Judge
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posted 02-05-2000 07:22 PM     Profile for Judge     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Where do people get the idea that there are no stalls or spins in WWII Fighters? Stalls happen all the time, the wing dips and the plane snaps into a spin. The spin is not sustained, however, because the game automatically recovers spins after two or three rotations. It's even possible to snap-roll the planes at speeds lower than 300 kts.
S.


Posts: 440 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
15./JG51
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posted 02-06-2000 05:06 AM     Profile for 15./JG51   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Judge,
That is just I'm reporting: the auto-recovery. Of course that planes stall (except for the enemy AI), but this stall only consist on a little shake and last 2 seconds. You know that this is a stall and not a FM failure because the game put the word STALL in the top of the screen.

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oneway
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posted 02-06-2000 05:26 AM     Profile for oneway   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Judge

People are referring to the accelerated stalls mostly. In WWII fighters you have an angle of attack limiter. In other words you can pull the stick all the way back at any speed and you can not exceed an angle of attack that will cause your plane to stall.

This was the single FATAL flaw of WWII fighters. I have stated in the past that most people gave up on this sim only because of that fact. Because of this everyone bashes the rest of the flight model and claim EAW has a superior flight model. Eaw has its own problems with its flight model that are selectively overlooked because of this. BTW I prefer to fly EAW but do not mind flying WWII fighters.

I find that while you can get away with moving the stick all the way back without departure from flight, to have the same effect that it has in any combat sim. If you fly like this you will get shot down. In Eaw you will stall and spin. In WWII you will lose so much energy you will not be able to put up a fight. Different effects, same results.


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JWC
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posted 02-06-2000 09:37 AM     Profile for JWC     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi All!

First, on the topic of resolution in EAW: The different higher resolutions have different fields of view. Casey's description of 1024 x 768 being too narrow is the same effect that most players observe. At this resolution the sim looks fine from the standpoint of clear graphics but your view out the front of the cockpit is pretty limited to just the windscreen and and some of the nearby glass. For a wider and thus more useful FoV, the best settings are 800 x 600 or what I am currently going with: 1280 x 1024. This res works great, looks fabulous, and has a good FoV. Of course, your monitor and system will have to be able to go to that resolution. One of the amazing things about EAW is that it works so well on such a wide range of systems. I'm running that high res on a P2 200Mhz with 96MB RAM! (well, and a Voodoo 3-2000 PCI card) There are no problems (other than having to turn "Ground Object Detail" to the lowest setting).

AI Spins and Stalls: Actually, the AI in EAW can and sometimes does stall. I've never seen the AI go into a spin, but some people claim they have.

On the topic of stalls: yes the fly-by-wire-like AoA limitations in WW2F were a major turn-off for me. But really, Hakan Langebro, who designed the add-on for EAW called "ECA Online", points out on the ECAO website that NONE of the current generation of WWII flight sims has a truly realistic flight model (He's an aerospace engineer and a pilot, also!). The ability to pull the stick all the way back without departing was certainly one factor in his saying this. Even in "regular" EAW you can do this sometimes depending on your speed. (you certainly couldn't in the first version of ECAO that appeared!) But not too often. Usually if you pull back too quickly or too hard you go into a VICIOUS spin which is very hard to recover from! I remember reading once a comment by a US Navy pilot regarding the differences between mock ACM in the F-8 Crusader (which stood in for the MiG-21) and the F-16N (and also F/A-18). He said in the F-8 you spent half your time trying to win the fight and half your time watching to make sure you didn't depart the airplane. With fly-by-wire and the flight control computer, you just fight the enemy and don't worry about anything else! This is kind of what combat in WWIIF reminds of. I really prefer (in a WWII) sim to feel like I'm working at just flying, let alone fighting the enemy.


Posts: 1633 | From: College Station, Texas, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Greif
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posted 02-06-2000 11:17 AM     Profile for Greif   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi there,

I'll add some thoughts about the WW2F graphics: I've played it on a new and fast PC: Athlon 600, 128MB Ram, TNT2 Ultra, full installation, all other applications closed, all graphic settings maxed, [email protected] color.
The good news: the look is overwhelming , and sometimes gives you the feeling of watching a colored WW2-movie. The cockpit was and is the best. To speak IMHO: Forget the talking about EAW. WW2F has the best graphics.
The bad news: all this happened at 15fps or even below, when I flew through clouds... (OK, many planes and heavy ground combat, but I think, for a end 1998 sim, this is no excuse).

Result: WW2F is the best birthday present for someone, who wants to start in the flying circus. For veterans, I'll choose EAW, and for experts ... hm ... I wait for IL2, Stormbirds and FCTOE. May the best be the winner.

CuiH

Greif

[This message has been edited by Greif (edited 02-06-2000).]


Posts: 41 | From: Stuttgart, Deutschland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Peter Fisla
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posted 02-08-2000 08:25 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Woow, this thread is doing just great. Long live WW2F !

I just downloaded the 19 mission German campaign called "Operation Grosse Drucken"
from http://members.xoom.com/ww2f/ didn't have time yet to check it out though. There is also a P-38 campaign with 21 missions called"Airbuddha's P-38 Campaign" Woooow....and Airbuddha's P-51 Campaign" oh man so many presents...I hope one day when time gives I will be able to make my own 20 mission campaign of my beloved Bf-109.

Man I wish I had the money to build myself a Bf109 G6 ! That's my dream. I saw about a 6 months ago show on the Learning Channel on TV about how one crazy Yankee loved Zero and he spent some time searching for pieces in Pacific and after some time found enough components to make a Zero to fly !!! He even had original Japanese Zero Blue Prints, though the engine wasn't original, amazing isn't it !

Peter


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Murph
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posted 02-08-2000 06:12 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Peter;
A couple of years ago there was an article in our local paper(Denver Colorado)about a local fellow who had found and purchased a 109E in the former Soviet Union. He intended to restore it to flying condition,but I never saw any follow-up stories on it.Perhaps you should start your search in Russia?Apparently some captured aircraft were simply put in storage and forgotten.

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[email protected]
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posted 02-10-2000 05:46 AM     Profile for Indianer@6   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thank you Greif!!! I had planned to upgrade from my Celeron 300 (450) to a P III 600 because i thought it would solve that framerate problem in WW2F but when your Athlon(which is faster than a P III) can't solve this then it would be better for me to save my money and wait for the day the 800Mhz CPU is cheap enough to buy.

watch your six!


Posts: 11 | From: Erfurt,Germany | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Peter Fisla
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posted 02-10-2000 08:11 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Murph, I wish I had the money The Russians probably have some 109s there somewhere since there was a lot of fighting on the Eastern Front...

last night I was flying "Operation Grosse Drucken" the new 19 mission campaign for Luftwaffe. Wooow very well done, I'm having a lot of fun with this one, a really well done comapaign indeed. If anyone is looking for a good Axis campign this is it. Nothing like flying 109 with gun pods and going against bombers !

Peter

PS: Check your six



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Greif
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posted 02-10-2000 04:35 PM     Profile for Greif   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hallo Indianer

Ich denke, daß es schon etwas ausmacht, einen Celeron 300 oder einen Athlon 600 zu haben. Nur hat er halt meine Erwartungen schon ein bißchen enttäuscht. Meine Erwartung war bei Grafik auf absolutem Max dazu Cockpit und einer Mission voller Flugzeuge und Fahrzeuge ein Fps von 20+ bei [email protected] TrueColor. Das ist ein harter Brocken, keine Frage. Und der Brocken (schöner Berg...) sieht auch absolut fantastisch aus... aber das hab ich alles schon geschrieben.
Es ist wie immer eine Glaubensfrage: Sag wie hälts Du's mit dem Athlon? Meine Antwort ist: Die Botschaft hör ich wohl - allein, der Athlon fehlt...(bzw das Geld dafür )
Ich warte auf den 800 und Voodoo4/5/6. Dann lohnt es sich wieder für mich das Sparbuch zu plündern. Davor lebe ich weiter mit meiner lahmen aber tapferen Ente...

Bis dann, alles Gute,

Marc-David (Greif)


Posts: 41 | From: Stuttgart, Deutschland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
[email protected]
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posted 02-11-2000 02:37 AM     Profile for Indianer@6   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Greif
Ich habe meinen Celeron 300A mit 450 Mhz auf einem AOpen BX6BC Board laufen (100x4,5)und zwar sehr stabil.Gegenüber dem Betrieb mit 300 Mhz ist das schon eine Menge Power mehr.
Tatsächlich ist WW2F das einzige Game das meinen Rechner zum Schwitzen bringt.Generell
würde ich mir schon einen Athlon zulegen aber die Preispolitik der Händler verhindert das zur Zeit.Ein P III 600 kostet etwa 850,- DM,ein Athlon 600 zuzüglich eines passenden Boards kostet etwa 900,- DM ausserdem habe ich noch die Arbeit alles umbauen zu müssen und weiss auch nicht ob AMD in Zukunft beim Slot A bleiben wird.Zuguterletzt hört und liest man immer wieder das Athlon Boards nicht mit jeder Hardware klarkommen.

My Celeron 300A runs very stable with 450 Mhz on an AOpen BX6BC Board and this is a lot more Power than 300 Mhz.WW2F is indeed the only Game which makes my PC sweat.Generally i would buy an Athlon but it costs (include a new Board)a little bit more as a Coppermine in the same Class.Additionally i would have to rebuild my PC,i don't know if AMD supports that Slot A in the Future and last but not least there are everywhere Rumours that Athlon-Boards would not be comatible with the whole Hardware on the Market.

Horrido


Posts: 11 | From: Erfurt,Germany | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
calvinman
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posted 02-11-2000 04:03 AM     Profile for calvinman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Great thread guys! I just love my WW11 fighters, but unfortunatly have not been able to get into EAW.

To me the feeling that you are flying an aircraft that has torque, mass, and momentum is great! I agree that the AI pilots enjoy a supperior flight model, cause I sure can't fly the 262 like they can.

I have found that by trimming my X-36 in a back stick configuration using the trim dial so that it takes almost full forward stick to fly level at full speed I can turn with the enemy AI very well.

I also use the player to target view a lot for dogfighting and it is easyer for me to get inside there turn for a snap shot. Still work up a good sweat against the enemy AI though.

I even managed to get a P-38 into a flat spin once, not a falling flat spin, more like a frisbee, right into the side of a hill he he.

I can't believe that janes has not made a sequal to this one, would it not be a fairly easy job as most of the code is already written? It just cries out for a Pacific campain, BOB campain, etc etc.


Posts: 220 | From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
iguanat
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posted 02-11-2000 10:05 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Another opinion... Although the debate about the merits of EAW and WW2F seems to have tapered off a bit in the last few posts on this thread, I thought I would add my humble opinions anyway. Just got the Jane's sim, and there can be little doubt that the graphics of this thing are gorgeous. But in my opinion, that's about all this has to offer. The flight model, even at the highest setting is a joke. I have heard about the "aggresive AI" in WW2F, but it seems to me that it is more of a case of the enemy AI's being able to blissfully ignore the laws of physics. I have only had this thing for a few hours and I am already fed up with eternally looping 109's. I can follow equally endlessly of course, but that is scarcely realistic. To sum up, though EAW cannot equal this one graphically, the host of 3rd party add-ons for EAW make it pretty to look at as well, and the basic game is worlds better. I just wish, as someone stated earlier in the thread, that we could somehow compress the good points of each into one fantastic simulator... Thanks for listening...
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Judge
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posted 02-11-2000 11:01 PM     Profile for Judge     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
iguanat,
Yeah well I gave up on EAW after a couple of hours too. Just goes to show that you shouldn't rely on first impressions. If you give a game some time and look for the good instead of the bad, it may actually grow on you.
S.

Posts: 440 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Sitting Bull
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posted 02-12-2000 08:41 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Indianer,

Try to get a Celeron 366 and overclock it to 550MHz on your motherboard. They are really cheap now, usually around $80 Canadian. You will find a nice tidy performance increase in WW2 Fighters and it will run everything else about like a P!!!-600 as well.

I think a 1GHz cpu will be just the tonic to make WW2 Fighters run smooth as silk. It's a sim that will grow with your machine.


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Judge
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posted 02-12-2000 10:22 PM     Profile for Judge     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sitting Bull,

I've got a Celeron 366 on an ABit BX6 (v2) and can only clock to 458 (83x5.5, week 37 Costa Rica). I'm going to try for 550 again once the chip is well and truly burned in at 458 and once I improve the cooling.

550 is possible for some, but not all. Most are able to get to 458, but again, not all. You may be unlucky and find that your 366 doesn't overclock at all.

S.


Posts: 440 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Sitting Bull
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posted 02-14-2000 02:54 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Judge,

I have an Elite Group P6BX-A+ motherboard and this baby overclocks everything we've ever thrown at it! Very sweet, indeed, and it doesn't even sport the plethora of extra bells and whistles Abit boards do. For instance, I can't adjust the voltages at all, but that doesn't stop it from moving a Celeron 300a up to 504MHz (4.5x112)! Yowza!

And it is completely stable, the most stable motherboard I've ever seen.


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Casey
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posted 02-14-2000 08:25 PM     Profile for Casey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wow. I've been away from the forum for a few days. Great to see this thread still going as I was doing more WW2F experimentation last night.

I always thought WW2F had the best graphics going. But last night I ran it on my new baby- a P3 500, 128 MB, Voodoo3 and.... HOLY S**T! I had to go to an external view and just fly around. I lowered the flaps, lowered and raised the gear. The tires are turning as the gear comes down. The control, surfaces are moving. Every metal and painted surface reflects sunlight differently. It's unreal. BTW, framerates hovered between 29 and 39 when I wasn't in a major dogfight!

And the sounds! The flap mechanism, wind effects, the engines, the bullet impacts, all amazing.

As for flight models, I still don't know. On full-real I have seen some stalls and spins but, as someone else has noted, they are easier to recover from. While I have not seen a bandit stall and spin, I did see one miscalculate a split-S and hit the ground while I was chasing him- very cool.

And I have to admit, after a successful mission last night, having knocked down a few 190s, I felt proud to be lowering my wheels and lining up for a landing as the sun went down! It wasn't easy. I still love EAW but I don't find myself kissing the virtual ground when I bring my Mustang home without any new holes in that sim.

In WW2F, I hold my breath until the smoke clears and I see that message saying "No air targets found."

IMHO, no one has produced a sim which can touch WW2F in the graphics or sound departments. Even Jane's own efforts fall short.

If only that Pacific Theatre follow up would come along... maybe, World War II Fighters: The Rising Sun. Sound good?

Great posts guys.

Good hunting.




Posts: 636 | From: America | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Greif
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posted 02-15-2000 02:04 AM     Profile for Greif   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
And they all went on flying happily ever after...
Thanks Casey for starting a real good topic.

CuiH

Marc-David (Greif)


Posts: 41 | From: Stuttgart, Deutschland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Todd
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posted 02-15-2000 05:47 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have both EAW and WWIIF. I basically shunned WWIIF for some time and stuck to EAW. The main reasons I avoided WWIIF was the negative posts regarding the FM, gameplay issues and the heafty hardware requirements-at the time I had a P5/233MMX and a Voodoo2 Video card. Once I upgraded to a P2/466 and a TNT2 card I decided to give WWIIF a try, since it was discounted to $29.00. I was not dissapointed. While there are shortfalls to WWIIF, as well as EAW that matter, I find WWIIF to be more fun than EAW. This is not a knock on EAW. With add-on's it is a great sim too. I have said this before and will say it again...I wish that Jane's or whoever now owns the rights to WWIIF would open up the source code like Hasbro has done with EAW. I can only imagine what the WWIIF engine would look like with new user created terrain sets and planes from the Pacific. Could you imagine what it would be like to tangle with Zero's, Franks, Hellcats and Corsairs!
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Casey
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posted 02-16-2000 08:22 PM     Profile for Casey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Zeros, Franks, Hellcats, Corsairs.....

Oscars, Tonys, Wildcats, Warhawks,...

B-29s, B-25s, Bettys, Kates,...

Spitfires, Helldivers, Avengers, Jacks,...


Jane's WW2 Fighters-like graphics.. the sun glistening on the shiny blue nose of my F4U-1D and the waves on the ocean 15,000 feet below... that amazing damage model at work when I hose an A6M-5 with my fifties and the wing comes off before the fuel tank explodes...

If only-



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