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Author Topic: Future sim
Member # 3500

posted 10-19-2000 01:00 PM     Profile for Mispunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
One flightsim I would realy like to see is a so called "pseudo sim". A hardcore(ish) flightsim set 50 years from now. It would have a dynamic campaign in the vein of EECH set in a new cold war scenario and would feature LOADS of high tech prototype/plausible hardware.
I like to work this concept out a bit further, I'm a 3d modeler who is about to start his "career" in the gaming industry and would like work out some concept art on this from time to time.

So my question is: how would you envisage something like this, what kind of hardware, scenario or campaign would you like to see....


Posts: 182 | From: Rotterdam, The Netherlands | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Member # 7046

posted 10-19-2000 01:28 PM     Profile for the_conquerer_cgi     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
50 years by now, they should have replaced MG's with low power lasers or something. It would be cheaper in the long run, as ammo costs money, and it probably wouldn't be all too powerful, as lasers require electricity for more damage. So, I guess it would have the same damage impact as the replaced MG, just giving unlimited ammo. As far as bombs and missiles go, probably better guidance/propulsion/warheads would be made. Like, an enhanced C4 for bombs, making them a bit more potent, etc etc etc...

Ohh... and lasers are not as protrayed in most games. You cannot see the beam unless its foggy/cloudy and there is practicaly zero time to impact (Wing Commander, although fun, did have the most unrealistic beam weapon ideology I've ever seen)

[This message has been edited by the_conquerer_cgi (edited 10-19-2000).]

Posts: 299 | From: Ft. Myers, Fl, US | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Member # 2889

posted 10-19-2000 01:53 PM     Profile for GrahamD   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
50 years from now BVR combat will have gone to the extreme, so it will no longer be necessary to get off the tarmac. Maybe this is why there is so much interest prop sims.
Posts: 40 | From: Loughton, Essex, UK | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Kurt Plummer
Member # 358

posted 10-19-2000 11:54 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I can't guarantee 50 Years Forward but some 'war after next' stuff can be modelled based on what we know now to be in development.

1. Lasers blind and dazzle before they kill. By power and propogation distances and fleeting passage of very hard LOS (clouds and max standoff too) Especially in a DE world you want to be able to generate levels of damage and 'depths' of consequence. One thing that is certain is that as Western economic power lessens and massed-kill weapons become more 'popular' for putting large units at risk, it becomes smarter to defeat the enemies potential investment in at least THEL sized (small buildings at the moment, heavy vehicles in a few years) by dispersing smaller, lower value, 'special forces' (suicide bunnies) across a very wide frontage and then dropping standoff weapons in from UCAV or Hypervelocity Cruise or 'Round The World' aeroballistic delivery.

2. I wouldn't rule out mass driven weapons. They have the advantage of equivalent displacement theory and 'retained energy' whether chemical or kinetic. Most importantly, it has a fully evolved packaging theory so that we can trade range for size and even multi-KV vs. over the horizon (LOAL) shots. One key to this is going to be increased useage of microturbine and gelrocket (relightable, halfway between solid and liquid for storeable safeties) for multiple-extended boost-cruise-boost-terminal phases. Successful engagement may be determined by FPS and random-evasive profiles from a given ballistic range footprint against active terminal defenses with numbered-X total KV.

3. Under current rules, the commitment to manned-anything has to stop at the point at which the threat is either so sudden in onset and/or so lethal in Pk that it cannot be defeated by countermeasures to the level at which 'human ingenuity' can reasonable be deemed to have a tactical means of otherwise achieving the mission.

Some ideas-

1. Munksy/Piesecki Tailfan
A means to give any helicopter upwards of 200-250 knots of forward airspeed. Basically a toroid surrounding a fan or ejector slot with clamshell doors instead of a conventional tailrotor. Close doors and the the thrust exits through rotating slots in the sides of the ring. Open the doors (at speeds for which airframe inertia is sufficient to overcome rotor torque) and all that wasted torque or bleed air is going straight aft.

2. Solo Trek
A twin fan 'umbrella' with footrests. Looks like some kind of diabolical exercise machine. Combined with #1 you can come in Very Low and split the insertion elements via some kind of split-shell ejector case (i.e. while still in forward flight) that then drops these firefly like mobile infantry into large spatially displaced LZ's.

With increasing emphasis on arty delivered sensor mines and 'public' satellite feeds (the articles on Space Warfare won't last past the first time CNN takes SPOT-followon footage and rebro's to Next Bad Guy's intelligence agency) it may be that we will no longer be able to 'guarantee operational security' as a function of denied sensor LOS. Which will require us to use tactical guile and gambitry instead. 'Did they drop them here or here or here and where will they regroup?'. Individual flight capability ensures this over a very wide frontage.

Exoskeletons for Human Performance Augmentation.
This is a DARPA program to provide humans with at least running speed 'performance endurance' for extended periods. I would integrate the EHPA with the Solo Trek descent vehicle so that small units can be mobile 'random' both before during and after insertion.

4. Bio Exotics
Chems and Bios don't need to kill and when they /do/ kill they must do so selectively, very quickly with a rapid disollution past traceability, repeatedly and reliably. I can easily see some forms of 'non lethal' weapons evolving into the massed equivalent of riot control agents. If you cannot disable the military you disable the populace (and force the military to take care of them). This has already been done in SEA where occasionally downed pilots and SOF way the hell on the wrong side of a border were gassed right along with the locals. Again, with todays technologies we're getting closer to the ability to attack, on multiple levels 'Semites But Not Jewish Ones' with specialist genespliced illnesses, some of which may be so secret as to not even have a parent pathology.

At a cheaper level, this can be done by mechanical means such as distribution of microfilaments which effect both unshielded electronics and attack the lung filtration systems of humans. Causing spontaneous effects like Cystic Fibrosis crossed with Asthma (they also itch like the /blazes/).

At some point in the future this will require adoption of full-enclosure 'safe suits' for infantry with highpower static discharge fields for entry into secure 'clean room' environments, maintained much like a submarine is, with closed circuit goodies (again, I'm speculating from-known, this already exists in some cases but is not endemically required). Imagine shutting down the NYSE or disabling a major ATC. And doing so with entirely 'non-lethal' means as a function of what could be called 'humane objection'.

5. More Bio.
Again, at some time, we will see _serious_ investigation into pyschoactive drugs or actual invetro engineering to grant both physical and perhaps mental capacity enhancements. This is already easily visible in any Olympic strenght or fat-mass ratio intensive sport where the ability to function reliably for extended periods while carrying such a 'topheavy' metabolic penalty is ludicrous. And yet screwing around with horse steroids is little better than goat entrails and alchemy.

6. Land Warrior 2000 et al...
Having seen the face of the future warrior I am /not/ terribly impressed. The 'Mk.4 Weapons Suite' for instance is little more than an AR177 Commando with a mousepad and a TI telescope hooked up to a GIANT battery pack and a kneetop computer/HMD. Utterly Bogus Bull****.

Speed still counts for /everything/ in man:man combat. Carrying even 10lbs of crap (atop an 8lb Assault Weapon with a 4lb 'overhead' minigrenade system) is just way too much. Especially when you start to add in RBA or equivalent hardshell armor. And it's all for nothing. A man with a Springfield boltaction will miss based on LOS transit and operator aim within an absolute 'indexed' accuracy training table. The same shot with a semiauto, 8-shot, Garand is the equivalent of 10 Springfields.

The same conditioned engagement with an AK-74 or M-16 is the equivalent of 10 Garands. Now multiply that by the size of the unit (squad etc.).

And you are completely compromised.
Offensively you cannot cross the threat defensive killzone, defensively you cannot have 'delaying actions' without creating another, intransitable one, back of you. Sticking your rifle above a parapet or over/around a conventionally framed house is only apt to get your hands shot and or a stream of bullets through the wall.

Why pay for personallized gear for every trooper, even 'special forces' when they are no more safe against remote or sudden-massed fires for having it?

No. What you want to do is make everything 'on-man' as simple as possible (wraparound sunglasses with side-mounted imagers and polarization enhancement against DE as well as own-spot designation for longer shots. Then leave the rest of the PC back in the track please.

While (through EHPA or small ATV type vehicles, possibly robotic) you lug your /important/ wartoys to an emplaceable position where they can be expended or picked up and reused (by another unit, 1,000miles away later) more readily, separate from your big, soft, squishiness.

What kinds of goodies? A 'smoke alarm' type disk which can be flung or slid or simply stuck onto a given point and cover a wide area with aimed fire of .22LR or equivalent (micro, but very accurate and uncaringly sacrificial) caliber.

SPIKE which is a combined EO, inertial and laser-CG driven equivalent to the old M72 LAW. Good on a long ballistic to 2 miles or at 200m right through window-X. Direct or Indirect as many as you can carry.

Sensor Sticks. Able to track the ionized bullet trails as flash and electrical zing. Push in X# of the sticks like tent pegs and now when that sniper pins down your team in Somalia you've got instant and redundant 'triangulation' localize to return fire.

A similar ability to push FOcamera headed sticks through light or heavy wallboard or even some brick would let you see into a hallway that you either wanted remote-denied or were afraid someone else was ambushing.


For effective advance you should depend on robots that can effectively be killed in the effort to fire-find as long as the cost-aperture is less than the cost-barrel.

With human driven hounds belling out the howl, actual sweep-to-chase should be done by UAV's and FOG or similar (intelligent, overhead ballistic) once the enemy starts to run. The Company commander watches the TV monitor, labels a cross street based on computerized estimates of rated-enemy movement and VLS-lofts a couple dozen SPIKE or similar missiles out the back of the PC (or Hummer or ATV) while the infantry /very carefully/ picks their way forward.

Where an enemy comes into a building and won't leave you should either level it, bypass it or _at the very least_ go in 'alinearly'. That means you never use doors, you make them. Through walls, floors, and roofs. The Russians have a saying: Only crooks and monkeys run upstairs, soldiers fight down them. White Smoke and Various Gas and advance by robot eye are all 'fair' here and the provision of multiman acrylic bullet/frag shields is also wise. Once you are in, rapidly setting up ceramo-acrylate armor-walled saferooms is also mandatory.

Guns themselves should move away from traditional powder ballistics. Even with case-consumed/beercan rounds you are creating a baselimit on the number of rounds you can carry and an unexceedable accuracy limit due to recoil and barrel length. They are also noisy and their own worst maintenance hassle (particulate residue and open-port ejection).

Instead go with 'airrifles' with some type of gas generation in a separate plenum, possibly offboard, possibly LP.

Multiple More rounds, no crack-signature and easier-dialed lethality/overpenetration and special-round (illumination, dumdum, plastics, explosive) ballistics accomodation.

For a mag count of 100-300 rounds over the barrel and on rotary cylinder based cyclic rate of fire in the low thousands if needbe (Think G-11 and move up a notch).

Utility stuff like comms and medicals and food/water should be integrated conformally underneath a shell chestplate to lower the bouncing-webgear discrete carriage effect. The simple ability to talk secure over a banded skull or mastoid implant type comms walkie talkie is easier done in the Police/SRT than as infantry gear which is a shame because jamming and eaves drop is nothing against the commitment of troops to within 'yelling distance' against weapons which cover a half a mile per second right out the barrel. Stupid.

While the man himself should be treated like any other broken piece of kit. If he can be fixed to a waruseable level you patch him with drugs and an exterior 'scab' type rapid woundclosure. If not you stabilize him into a narcocoma and leave a location for remote medevac. They were doing some interesting things with synthetic foams last I heard, plug it in and it stops blood flow, paralyzes certain 'antisurvival' organ functions and replaces mesentary suspension to help with continued respiration etc. All saline solueable. Similar things like autoamputation 'ringseals' (too the bone at least, sealing arteries as they go) and other improvements to the basic ability to stabilize at a minimal weight and intrusive-expertise basis are also likely to improve. Stored DNA sampled derm patches for skin and possibly 'own organ donor' replacement via synthetic or animal carrier (pig etc.) growth would be likely means to avoid the kinds of afteraction horror wards 'living hospices' that still dot our country today.

Kurt Plummer

Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 7046

posted 10-20-2000 07:23 AM     Profile for the_conquerer_cgi     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't know about what you say about lasers. A combat laser would rely on the infrared scale much more than the visual laser we see and think we know everything about. There would be defraction in clouds, but not so much as to drag down more than the ammount of damage. If it was a very thick cloud, then you would have a problem. After all, I recall certain aircraft being able to use IR to spot other aircraft through clouds. And I'm not sure, but I think I also have seen footage where IR can read signatures through thin walls. The IR scale goes through a lot more than light does. We could go to the oposite end and have it use UV rays or X rays, but so far that only seems to damage organic material... hmm... sounds like a replacement for the neutron bomb in the works...
Posts: 299 | From: Ft. Myers, Fl, US | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gavin Bennett
Member # 2001

posted 10-20-2000 08:47 AM     Profile for Gavin Bennett   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Eric L. Harry's latest book "Invasion" offers a more distant future scenario, say 2020, where China is invading the US. It's a strange and fascinating book; especially in its assertion that due to advances in missile technology, that CAS as a doctrine has died.

The Battlefield returns to the infantryman. There is one air battle in the entire book.


Posts: 172 | From: Dublin, Ireland | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged

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