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Author Topic: Most immersive Jet Sim?
Moiety
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posted 10-09-2000 11:27 PM     Profile for Moiety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm looking for an immersive jet sim.

It must have a realistic ground war going on. I downloaded the demo for "Hokum vs. Commanche" and the ground battle was a joke. Units were clumped together (Ever seen 3 T-72's, a few BMP's, and a SPA piece all just hanging out in the middle of a war?)

Falcon 4.0 has the same unfortunate problem. The ground stuff isn't convincing.

If we can't have a good ground war, let's just not have one. For example, in Terminal Realities "Fly!" there is no combat at all, but it is fairly immersive.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Just want your opinions on the most immersive sim (don't say F4 or CvsH please) . There are a few good prop sims coming out, and I thought I'd pick up a jet one too.

BTW, have Flanker 2.0 and F/A-18 already. I like them both to an extent, especially F/A-18.

But there just HAS to be something better!

[This message has been edited by Moiety (edited 10-09-2000).]


Posts: 214 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kurt Plummer
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posted 10-09-2000 11:59 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Moiety,

Get someone to hire me, and (Puffing Chest Prior To Beatings Fists Upon Pecs...;-) _"I'll Get The Job Done!"_

Trust Me...:`)

What you need for a good battle is a ground campaign that /requires/ the player to be a part in planning the ground action and who then isn't surprised or disappointed by what he encounters there during flight.

I've got the interface, I've got some good platforms and weapons, I've even got some better ideas on Padlock and Wingman AI.

But until someone can focus down beyond the trivialities of 'sim vs. gameplay' and 'FM vs. Framerate' we'll never see a decent strategic element of play because to them, the way the player interacts with the campaign is entirely about how many buttons or pixels you push.

Tiz a shame really because it's clear we're past-mastering the basic mechanics of design and everyone is simply formularizing past efforts with prettier faces.


Kurt Plummer, the humble one...


Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ssnake
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posted 10-10-2000 05:34 AM     Profile for Ssnake   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Play the ground war yourself - you can't beat that immersion...

Posts: 467 | From: Germany | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Moiety
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posted 10-10-2000 12:59 PM     Profile for Moiety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kurt,

Good post. It's true!

Ssnake,

I have! I also play Combat Mission.

So overall, I guess you guys are saying there isn't anything out there that matches what I'm looking for?

I know, they were high expectations in the first place.


Posts: 214 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Heretic
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posted 10-10-2000 02:12 PM     Profile for Heretic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well first you must make a decision of what you want.....
Be a general or a pilot....
General donŽt fly
Pilot donŽt manage large forces....

Take a look at mig alley maybe...

Heretic


Posts: 546 | From: Brasil, Rio de Janeiro | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kurt Plummer
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posted 10-10-2000 03:48 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Heretic,

Nahhhh, we ain't /none of us/ Generals OR Pilots. So I have no problem whatsoever switch hitting either side.

The trick, for ease of play reasons, is to set up 'running plays' with the computer managing on a mission to mission basis whatever the player doesn't want to, from a basic set of guidelines (go here at this mode of attritional decision logic) input as simply as map-X 'travel guides'.

That's what my command interface does and while you can control right down to predicted artillery impacts and Team or TF level armor movements, most of the work is at the Batallion->Corps level. And by setting the computer in control at any level you can skip whole /screens/ worth of strategy you don't want to interact with.

At least until you get into real mission planning and literally 'fly what you fight', again with or without computer tasking support.

Because in a FUN cyberwar, you /develop/ the ground campaign. Or you get overrun.

And that means bringing the enemy to you or finding a hole and taking the fuss up to him.
Breaking the enemy's back over the anviled fulcrum of your strategy. Air power is a nice big hammer to beat him with but it is nothing without the ground forces pinning the enemy to over that anvil (battlefield) of YOUR choosing.

'Nuf Said I suppose, the patent is in the details...


Kurt Plummer


Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Moiety
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posted 10-10-2000 05:12 PM     Profile for Moiety   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm just tired of flight sims with minimal modeling of a realistic environment.

Seeing those vehicles grouped together unrealisticly in Commache vs. Hokum totally blew the immersion for me.


Posts: 214 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
ecoli
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posted 10-11-2000 09:45 AM     Profile for ecoli   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry, but just join the Army and you will get the REAL thing.

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"america the free? who ever told you that is your enemy!"
-RATM


Posts: 278 | From: Osaka Japan | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Cookie
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posted 10-12-2000 12:20 AM     Profile for Cookie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
So youŽre saying Falcon 4 is not immersive for you? Seriously? Well, in that case: Good luck searching. YouŽll need it...

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You can run, but... why die tired?

Visit me at the Flightsim Cafe


Posts: 685 | From: Dortmund, Germany | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
CavScout19D
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posted 10-13-2000 05:12 PM     Profile for CavScout19D   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Falcon 4.0 is as immersive as your gonna get. The only other sim I can think of is Longbow2. Your right about EECH, all the vehcles always look as if they are in a huddle.
Posts: 138 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Hornit
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posted 10-13-2000 05:32 PM     Profile for Hornit   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My take on this whole thing is that we are not "there yet" with system capabilities. Graphics play a part too and IMHO we have a good way to go yet in video card technology before we get to the stage I'm thinking of.

My guess is that in 4-5 years we will see almost photo realistic sims that can handle the true dynamic and realistic campaign. Until then, it's all a compromise. Isn't it obvious?

Hornit


Posts: 955 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Slider_131st
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posted 10-14-2000 08:43 AM     Profile for Slider_131st   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm with hornit on this one, we are jumping the hurdles faster and faster technologicly speaking. And although nothing ever happens fast enough for us, I don't think we have that long to wait

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Peace - through superior firepower!


Posts: 36 | From: lake woorth, FL, USA | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
F4PhantomFighter
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posted 10-16-2000 10:00 PM     Profile for F4PhantomFighter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It's not Jet's, But Comanche Gold has one of the best ground force Campaigns I have seen. My 2 Cents.
Posts: 1 | From: Somersworth,NH,USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
SuperGroove
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posted 10-16-2000 10:57 PM     Profile for SuperGroove   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tell any online squad who has flown with 8 people at a time, that F4 is not immersive. Nothing like the sound of real human chatter, while diving bombing a DPRK Factory
Posts: 800 | From: Colorado | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
FishHawk
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posted 10-17-2000 12:27 AM     Profile for FishHawk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Try Mig Alley
Posts: 93 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Lucky_1
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posted 10-17-2000 05:49 AM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It's simple, for now.

For the best ground attack for jets, nothing beats Mig Alley. What other sim can you drop napalm and fly low and see a bunch of Koreans running around on fire? Or hear them, granted not realistic but very funny, curse you in Korean? Or target individual boxes and crates?

It even has a Mosquito that marks targets with smoke rockets. I love Mig Alley's ground attack better than its excellent dogfighting characteristics.

But, the best ground war sim is WWII Fighters, Man, talk about battles!! Huge ones, sometimes three of em' going on at the same time. But, its not jets.

LB2 also has excellent ground battles, but thats choppers.

IL-2 looks to be the one to get for moving mud, though I do hope they put ground soldiers in the thing.

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"Do not needlessly endanger your lives, until I give you the signal." Dwight D. Eisenhower


Posts: 635 | From: Knoxville, TN. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
the_conquerer_cgi
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posted 10-17-2000 07:01 AM     Profile for the_conquerer_cgi     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Granted... EECH may not have the most realistic ground AI, but a mod group is working on it. As well as enabling/making cockpits for the other Aircraft...
Posts: 299 | From: Ft. Myers, Fl, US | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
GrahamD
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posted 10-17-2000 08:27 AM     Profile for GrahamD   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Does other aircraft include A10s?
Posts: 40 | From: Loughton, Essex, UK | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
the_conquerer_cgi
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posted 10-17-2000 08:56 AM     Profile for the_conquerer_cgi     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The ultimate goal is to enable ALL the vehicles (except for mabey the ships, as they don't seem to be vehicles so much as water bases.) Whether their collective minds can accomplish this is another thing. All the physics are there, in the engine for all the vehicles (although some of them need to be seriously tweaked, if you've watched a jet land in EECH you know what I mean.) It's been done with other games before, and shouldn't be imposible to do.
Posts: 299 | From: Ft. Myers, Fl, US | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Akulashaker
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posted 10-17-2000 05:25 PM     Profile for Akulashaker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
And which mod group might that be? Would you be so kind as to provide a link to their page?

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___________________________________________
The Europe-88 Project: World War III in Germany
www.geocities.com/akulashaker/E88/


Posts: 488 | From: Greece | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
the_conquerer_cgi
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posted 10-17-2000 05:31 PM     Profile for the_conquerer_cgi     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
www.egroups.com/group/eechmods is the page they (I'm in it, but I'm new so I don't realy count myself) use for working on it if you're interested. As for an official web site, I don't realy think there is one, yet...
Posts: 299 | From: Ft. Myers, Fl, US | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Akulashaker
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posted 10-17-2000 05:48 PM     Profile for Akulashaker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Cheers.

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___________________________________________
The Europe-88 Project: World War III in Germany
www.geocities.com/akulashaker/E88/


Posts: 488 | From: Greece | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

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