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Author Topic: Other Sim than Jets...
Ssnake
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posted 09-09-2000 03:10 PM     Profile for Ssnake   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
According to the feedback of Jet sim enthusiasts, Steel Beasts is a great kick for you flyboys as well. It's NOT "just another tank game", so I thought I'd better give you a heads up about it...

Steel Beasts is a true SIM, not a tank action game. If you ever wondered how things look down there, this is the opportunity to find out.


Posts: 467 | From: Germany | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jack
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posted 09-13-2000 10:38 PM     Profile for Jack   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I can vouch for him. Steel Beasts has a lot going for it!

Jack Black


Posts: 36 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Nartman11
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posted 09-14-2000 02:39 AM     Profile for Nartman11   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
From what i experienced in the demo, it was awesome.

Just havn't had the $$ allocated to get it yet But i will!


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Lagging Sales
unregistered

posted 09-14-2000 08:32 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hummmmm, the name say's it all, you should have put a 3D engine in this thing boy's.
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Ssnake
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posted 09-14-2000 09:42 AM     Profile for Ssnake   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tell that all the big publishers whom we offered an almost finished game with just the 3D accelerator support missing.

They said there is no market for this stuff.

Do you have a remote idea how many of our own dollars have been put into this game? There is a limit how much of your own money you're willing to invest in a high risk adventure like game programming. All the time especially the simulation enthusiasts tell that they'd prefer realism, depth of gameplay and longevity/replay value over looks.

Time to put up or shut up, I say. Here you get the best tank simulation ever, and the only one that will be available for you for a looong time. I have yet to see a single forum participant to say that he lack of 3D accelerator support prevents him from enjoying the gameplay.
Not a single one said this after he gave this baby a serious try. Watch for the review here at CombatSim - it's due any day...


Posts: 467 | From: Germany | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Lagging Sales
unregistered

posted 09-14-2000 11:47 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry Ssnake,
1). Did try it, didn't like it, there is a reason why I spent almost $300.00 on a video card ya'know.
2). Don't care how much money you or other's put into a game, it a gamble if it work's you reap the benefits, if it does not work out... that's the way the cookie crumbles. Hindsight is a *itch isn't it?
3). If I want indepth game play, I'd get a military board game, more indepth then any sim will ever be.

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Schurem
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posted 09-14-2000 12:29 PM     Profile for Schurem   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
sSnake, don't let em f*ck with your head, i LOVE your game
and it's not all about the money, is it?
it shows in every aspect that it's a labour of love, and i thank you for that
let the dude with the $300 gfx card go play quake or USAF, while we enjoy the sound of turret brakes, T80's going up and shells being fired

------------------
I just LOVE the smell of NAPALM in the morning


Posts: 200 | From: nijmegen, netherlands | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ssnake
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posted 09-15-2000 02:42 AM     Profile for Ssnake   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Lagging Sales, I accept the rules of a free market, and if this sim won't be accepted - OK. It'll be hard, but I'll accept it.
I never said that Steel Beasts is everyone's cup of tea, but I do know that there are a lot of people who like it, so we probably didn't botch.

If you want eye candy - fine, it's your call. Since you didn't care to take a further look you probably didn't notice that SB can be run as a boardgame as well. There is a preview of Wargamer who specifically pointed out this possibility. Your position seems to be a bit ignorant to me because your argument in short is "that it ain't 'cause it can't be".


Posts: 467 | From: Germany | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
PositiveG
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posted 09-15-2000 05:57 AM     Profile for PositiveG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'd buy it if I could find it!!!

Where is it, who sells it?

Can you buy it online anywhere???


Posts: 52 | From: Bedford, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kurt Plummer
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posted 09-15-2000 06:58 AM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ssnake,

Really Nice bit of work. I did all the gunnery lessons in a single sitting. Not finding the driving (and waypoints etc.) to be quite as intuitive but am gradually working my way through.

Mind some Q's?

1. Especially as the game continues to be played (over and over, I /luv/ gunnery!;-) my joystick seems to develop a 'TC jerk' that will pull off my aim as I'm trying to finetune things. I'm pretty sure it's not the palm track thing because I'm making too small a movement (also that 'clutch noise', I assume it's as bad for a tank turret as it is for a car?) and always hitting P. I wish I could yell 'identified!' and get the begger to lay off. What is 'B3 on a CH FStick, could I ask? none of mine seem to want to respond with the onscreen message.

2. The Magnification. Duhhhh, B4? On my JS, it's a hat switch and always seems to 'flicker' a few times before settling to either setting (unfortunately the same direction on the hat). Now I wouldn't mind a 'hold to magnify' option because X3 helps in quick-acquiring targets over a wider arc but especially with the laser on movers, I need to have the damn mag -settle- for at least for the length of the button hold.

If it's going to be one way or the other, it should FIRMLY click into place and then 'back to reverse' out. I haven't yet gone over the controls mapping in game (SpeedKeys doesn't like my HP's internet keyprompts...) so maybe I can fix this within game?

3. Controls mapping. Ahem, kind sucks there sir. ~ R , . / P INS DEL (keypad) + - etc. I think you're trying to keep them separate for the fumble fingered or maybe immitate their location on a gripstick or something?

4. R vs. INS/DEL. When I'm in the GAS, I think it is, I notice that I still get barrel SE response from the latter. Do I need to tell the computer both commands or will R cover everything?

5. Some added instructions on firing at night or through smoke and haze (+/- when?), what to look for as a target size for a given range and how to use the coax as ranger on a leading shot would be super. I understand the use of the laser modes but it never seems to matter and ~ is a bitch to reach while I'm trying to keep track of (right hand, GURRRR!:-( shell controls and P/alm. Can you give a -specific- instance where, with the target held in-reticle I cannot just stick with Last? Moving vs. Moving maybe? I've yet to be bounced around a crosscountrifying Abrahms...

6. As a personal question. On the 1A2 you get the CITV and supposedly some additional round options like STAFF/TERM and the M830. Is there a reason you chose not to allow us to have independant target assignment and antihelo/overhead infantry weapons? Could you give an example of how CITV->Gunner handoffs work differently? (Can you lase from the periscope or store aimpoint registries within the vehicle nav system for instance?).


Still working through the tutorials so be gentle with me but I just wanted to let everyone know, grab NetVamp or some equivalent and leave your machine on tonight. It's a long d/l but SB is suprisingly addictive.


You shoulda seen how far an APFSDS goes at 2300m in HEAT Mode...;-) Kurt Plummer


Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ssnake
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posted 09-15-2000 01:22 PM     Profile for Ssnake   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Mind some Q's?
Not really. I'm not sure if this is the right place (I'd rather recommend either Shrapnel's SB forum, or the armor section), but I think one exception is probably OK...
quote:
  • my joystick seems to develop a 'TC jerk' that will pull off my aim as I'm trying to finetune things...
    (also that 'clutch noise', I assume it's as bad for a tank turret as it is for a car?)
    ...What is 'B3 on a CH FStick, could I ask? none of mine seem to want to respond with the onscreen message.

  1. We've received similar complaints. We have developed a solution. It will be part of the first patch/product upgrade that's due in the beginning of October.
  2. The turret brake just sounds bad, but it's designed to withstand the forces that are involved with bringing 16 tons to a quick halt.
  3. I cannot give specific answers to your hardware. If the stick is programmable, try to assign the keyboard hotkey instead of relying on the button number. Maybe some people in the Steel Beasts forum at Shrapnel's site can help you more.

quote:
  • The Magnification. Duhhhh, B4? On my JS, it's a hat switch and always seems to 'flicker' a few times before settling to either setting. If it's going to be one way or the other, it should FIRMLY click into place and then 'back to reverse' out. I haven't yet gone over the controls mapping in game (SpeedKeys doesn't like my HP's internet keyprompts...) so maybe I can fix this within game?

Sorry, but I don't have a solution for that. See above. It is intended to behave like you descibe it should do. It does on every stick I know of except yours.
quote:
  • Controls mapping. Ahem, kind sucks there sir.

It's on The List for either the first or second patch. Oh, I know you'll be screaming "The first! Put it into the first patch!"
But we have opted for a fixed launch schedule for both patches, so we ensure that at least some things will be addressed quickly. The alternative would be to delay the release of the patch for a week, and then another, and in the end everybody is mad until the patch finally arrives. There will be two this year, and what doesn't make it into the first, will be found in the second. Both patches will be combined with a significant product upgrade.
quote:
  • R vs. INS/DEL. When I'm in the GAS, I think it is, I notice that I still get barrel SE response from the latter. Do I need to tell the computer both commands or will R cover everything?

No. Ins/Del will notify the ballistics computer of a change of the loaded ammo type. To take this affect gunnery, it requires a working ballistics computer and working hydraulics. If either one os gone, R will help you select the proper superelevation for your ammunition in degraded gunnery mode. Notice that none of the mentioned problems affect the Leopard, since it's either handeled by the loader, or the reticule in the GAS has both HEAT and sabot markers for manual and emergency gunnery.
quote:
  • Some added instructions on firing at night or through smoke and haze (+/- when?), what to look for as a target size for a given range and how to use the coax as ranger on a leading shot would be super.

The resources section of the fan site has some additional info, especially a small tutorial (sort of) about degraded gunnery with a special focus on target distance estimation and range tables.
quote:
  • As a personal question. On the 1A2 you get the CITV and supposedly some additional round options like STAFF/TERM and the M830. Is there a reason you chose not to allow us to have independant target assignment and antihelo/overhead infantry weapons? Could you give an example of how CITV->Gunner handoffs work differently? (Can you lase from the periscope or store aimpoint registries within the vehicle nav system for instance?).

Despite what every other tank sim told you, STAFF has never been fielded, and the program finally was terminated. The follow-on project TERM will not produce results before 2007. Steel Beasts focuses on the era 1993-1997 where STAFF was an experimental round and not available in numbers at all.

The M830 MPAT round is a special HEAT warhead designed to use against helicopters. This round has been fielded, and currently is still in production. However, it makes no sense at all to add this round in if you don't have helicopters to shoot at.
Since we strive for the highest degree of realism possible (especially as far as the validity of tactical results is concerned), we decided to postpone the addition of air threat unless we can model it really good. This requires additional (and costly) artwork as well as time consuming AI modifications. It si on the To Do List for further development stages, and if the sales numbers suggest further development, air threat will be added in as a future product update. Until then, no MPAT. For further information on this topic, consult the FAQ.

The interaction between CITV and gunner is very similar to what the Leopard's periscope delivers (except that it has a thermal sight as well).

quote:
You shoulda seen how far an APFSDS goes at 2300m in HEAT Mode...;-)

Been there, done that. You'd be surprised how often I've seen it in real life...

[This message has been edited by Ssnake (edited 09-15-2000).]


Posts: 467 | From: Germany | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Kurt Plummer
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posted 09-15-2000 11:58 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fore! (Counties...)

OTOH, just to piss off the good people here...

I asked about the CITV because it seems like the TC has a helluva wide field of vision and yet at least 50% of the time I can beat him to an acquisition if not a 'I can't see it!' Identify, as long as I keep the turret moving. Yet he'll pull me upwards of 70-80` onto targets (which is part of what starts the worst of the double-takes in tracking, even with P/alm outs I think).

So I'd like to understand the limits of his views and the AI interpretation of his fixed mag periscope blocks when I'm gunning.

There's also something frelled with the LRF.
When I get an enemy part-masked behind an upwards slope, I seem to often get either '5300m' or a '2240m' reading as standard par.

Firing (Sabot) either way, I get a 'short!'.

This happens in two particular instances on the Tank Range Gunnery section where I'm facing either a T-72 that moves up and down behind the mask or a BRDM (errr, 4-wheel scout buggy with Sagger or Spandrel uptop?) that has an epileptic stuttering susan on the gas pedal.

I've tried manually elevating to compensate but this isn't easy with one hand on the ~ key and the other trying to hold a constant lead traverse.

Given a choice it's almost easier to input SE from the manual sight because at least there I've got relative index markers and can match to a mind's eye image of where the target is beyond the ridgeline.

A 'good LRF' should have near/far field elevational cues as switchhit button selects in the same field (effectively first last indicator choice)

While optimally, I would ditch the flat-earth sight horizon for a barrel loft modifier and pseudo coax registered aimpoint (even if it effectively covers the sky) like so-

\ /
. \./.

Whereby the triangle is sight-flexxed (perspective rotated) to give ballistic trajectory indication. Flat or shallow up indicates a short (computed from LRF) trajectory. Down/deeper indicates a loft of increasing proportions.

And the . dot is a historical register of impact .25 seconds ago at the current leadrate (obviously, there would only be one dot but I want you to see the variances that might alter lead based on what I can see of the ridgeline elevations).

A simple gyro bubble level
_

_
0
_

on VEHICLE tilt (if the 1A1 has an onboard navigator linked to the GPS like the 1A2 does, it should be able to take a reference from this, unfortunately, the ground remains amazingly flat in IR and the targets too-dark in standard optics).

Together with another single-button supermil elevational pop that the player can 'handtwist' without trying to drive two axes simultaneously at such low resolution on mag.

button-X= .5 mil per hit.

Okay, so maybe it's not 'real' but given the limits of the simulator on optics, I still find it simpler to give the computer control of the traverse lead and dial in the SE myself.

So what I'm suggesting is an ability to 'aim high' and loft rounds because the TC is nearly useless, constantly giving register marks over/short that are in fact (IMO) a function of not the LRF driving the range but of the elevational impact register being off because the round is hitting a terrain impact point that is itself 'historical'.

Or of my own (manual) SE errors on target mask while trying to maintain lead, one handed on a big stick (gotta get that ~ and INS/DEL onboard...;-).

All of which is of course why I'm very interested in an over-LOS homing or at least smart-head HEAT round.

Thanks for your response and the LINKS, I'll post this again on the Shrapnel board when I've purchased the full working version.


Kurt Plummer


Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ssnake
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Member # 4038

posted 09-16-2000 02:12 PM     Profile for Ssnake   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kurt,

2240 is the right distance. Due to the flat trajectory of the sabot rounds these partially obscured targets are very difficult to hit.

The TC operates along the SOPs for tank gunnery, giving a hint to the gunner where the round hit relative to the target. Settle with it, because we won't change it until the Army does, and the Army didn't do this since before WW2

Maybe my English skills are not good enough, maybe it's because I have consumed a good portion of beer this evening - but I couldn't make any freakin' sense out of 75% of your last post. Sorry if my response falls somewhat short, but if it's important to you I'd suggest you rephrased it a little bit more verbose, and sent it to [email protected] sorry


Posts: 467 | From: Germany | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rapier
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Member # 1640

posted 09-16-2000 04:20 PM     Profile for Rapier   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don't worry SSanke, I find the same thing with Kurt's posts. I think he knows what he's talking about for the most part from what I can tell.

PS> Thanks for helping me show up that a$$hole Canadian Leopard 1 gunner.


Posts: 123 | From: Calgary, AB, Canada | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
ral
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Member # 2748

posted 09-16-2000 07:43 PM     Profile for ral   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Looks interesting. Will you be selling Steel Beasts over the counter? Do you ship to the Philipines? CFS2, BoB, Typhoon...decision time....

------------------
http://www.dogfight.cjb.net


Posts: 868 | From: Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ssnake
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posted 09-17-2000 04:53 AM     Profile for Ssnake   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
We ship anywhere the mailman will go.
There will be a retail solution in the future, but I wouldn't count on it being
a) soon, and
b) in Manila...

But you can either order it through Shrapnel's Game Store, or follow the link at the bottom of this page of TankSim.com


Posts: 467 | From: Germany | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged

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