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Author Topic: What is the best campaign in a jet sim?
dwitt
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posted 09-07-2000 07:33 AM     Profile for dwitt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I mean a non scripted type campaign like in Red Baron 2/3d. I don't like CFS style campaigns, more of an EAW type thing. Which sim would it be?
Posts: 312 | From: alexandria, ky usa | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
U-96
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posted 09-07-2000 09:01 AM     Profile for U-96   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Falcon 4+RP3. It's about the only one that is impossible to beat consistantly on max realism as far as my limited skill goes
EECH comes close second, for sheer fluidity.

Posts: 128 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Bozz
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posted 09-07-2000 10:26 AM     Profile for Bozz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
For me, personally was Ross MacGregor's WARROOM for Flanker 1.5. This was perhaps the only dynamic campaign ever made where it involved strategic mission planning, resource management, defence placements, or in essense, battlefield warefare.

You placed your SAMS in a manner best to defend your resources and airfields, arranged your CAP flights for time periods to best defence your airspace, planned and flew pin-point strikes deep inside enemy terrority, you also planned your attack to reduce your enemies ability to defend himself by planning flights to hit his fuel supplies, bridges, power plants, runways. You did it all. You were the General.

So far, no other sim has done this even close. What is even more surprising is the fact that Warroom was a free add-on for Flanker 1.5. Amazing! It was generally a two player option, and you as well play together on-line with your enemy if you had the time or just planned your mission, let it play out by itself, and emailed your opponent the mission results. He would email you back his results and the mission when to the next time slot. VERY COOL!

I'm keeping my toes crossed for this to be put into Flanker-Attack.

Bozz.


Posts: 191 | From: Copenhagen, Denmark | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Hunter
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posted 09-09-2000 01:07 AM     Profile for Hunter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Persian Gulf campaign in JF-15E seemed very realistic and closely followed the written accounts of many of the A2A and A2G stories from that conflict.
Posts: 154 | From: Lexington, IL USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Fishbed77
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posted 09-09-2000 11:11 AM     Profile for Fishbed77   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I too have to agree that the campaigns in Jane's F-15 are great. The radio chatter is awesome. The Gulf War campaign is, for the most part, historically accurate and the Iran campaign feels dynamic (even if it is only semi-dynamic) and allows for smooth framerates, something it's successor, F/A-18, just can't do on most machines.
Posts: 157 | From: | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
BUSTER420
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posted 09-09-2000 12:06 PM     Profile for BUSTER420   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I really dont wanna say this but the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur campaigns on IAF were the funnest ive played yet....
Posts: 85 | From: Pittsburgh PA USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Viper18372
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posted 09-09-2000 12:49 PM     Profile for Viper18372   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have a thing for dynamic campaigns. I would have to agree that even though the graphics engine in Falcon 4 is a little old the campaign is really really good.

~VIPER OUT


Posts: 171 | From: NY, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Kurt Plummer
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posted 09-09-2000 01:29 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Personally...

I find EAW to be one of the /least/ 'dynamic' in terms of same-game effects only a different end script.

Try flying one of the late 1944 thru '45 campaigns and watch how /very little/ frontline movement elements really change, even if you are winning every mission.

Yet with the war ending in a tiny pocket around Berlin and then the Baltic Coast (as it should at that point in the campaign, strategic airpower being effectively non-important); you still get the 'marching onwards to victory' collage of Nazi Wagnerian images that you would, say in 1940.

To me, to be truly dynamic you have to have enough of a _scripted sense_ of war progression behind /every mission/ that you get an idea of how you are to win through campaign goals as much as individual kills etc.

For this reason and because they 'scripted' missions thru to about four different route paths to victory or loss, IN FIVE CAMPAIGNS, I still doff my cap to MProse for that most thrilling of 'what if' wars I ever fought: in F-14 Fleet Defender.

Absolutely amazing in a pure fighter simulator where I had virtually no control over the success of the 'real war winning' ground attack platforms but in whose (often extended, with minimal weapons margins) protection and against the /enemies/ similar attacks, I always felt like I was hanging it out there for 'my mates and my country' and not some artificial "Your squadron killed 10 bombers with only three losses but because the other 30 reached their target, you screwed the pooch" as EAW would have you believe.

Or the 'Hydran Air Force From Hell' approach given the DPRK in F4.

In WWII, a 30% attrition rate, spread out over four or five JG's would have obliterated the USAAF in less than 2 days. As indeed it virtually did one Black Thursday in October '43.

We /struggled/, day to day, to keep it under 10 and it wasn't until it was under 3 that the airwar was 'winnable'.

In North Korea, we would use a combination of Cruise and VLO to instantaneously shut down all but the deepest 'mountain bases' and then win the war as we did in Desert Storm if not Inchon.

In 2-3 weeks and **** resupply from the Chinese or Russkians (you try ferrying fighters into a theatre where the enemy owns the airspace over every base).

These kinds of lack of vision ruin the sense of /attritional strategy/ that makes a resource-dynamic campaign worthwhile IMO.

I would add one last thing. Airpower supports the Groundwar. All pretensions of other grandeur aside.

If you fail to provide an ability to tailor the GROUND WAR strategy (i.e. movement of forces to the attack plus drawplays and killsac pocket defenses etc.) then you are at best fighting a defensive battle in which you can deny the enemy the ability to win, but can _never achieve victory_.


Kurt Plummer


Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
MonsterZero
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posted 09-10-2000 12:57 AM     Profile for MonsterZero   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Games with the best campaign engines (I'm including only those I tested personally but most major gaming sites will confirm many of my choices):

-EF-2000
-Total Air War
-Falcon 4.0
-Enemy Engaged
-Mig Alley

Games with the worst campaigns:
-Flanker 1 and 2 (terrible failure in this department)
-All Jane's games (campaigns scripted and total number of campaigns is usually two, which is really pathetic considering the overall very high quality of the products)
-Microsoft CFS (I strongly recommend Microsoft sticks to flying Cessna 172s and keeps its f...g hands away from combat sims-this is one area where the're too far behind to catch up, because a great flight sim is a work of love, not just corporate greed)

P.S. Forgive me for being so passionate about the subject of Microsoft flying games

[This message has been edited by MonsterZero (edited 09-10-2000).]


Posts: 442 | From: Worth, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Whistler
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posted 09-10-2000 08:05 AM     Profile for The Whistler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I haven't played F-15 too much because I need the manual (F-ing CD Rom classics...). I am going to look today. I have a campaign question.

I was just starting up campaign missions to see what they were like. I noticed the begining mission seems to be different depending on which squadron you choose. What is with that???

P.S. I like Yom Kippur too. Musta been the Phabulous Phantom.

P.P.S. That F 1.5 campagin sounds interesting... I saw flanker 1 at the stores but it was in a pack of old crappy ones and said it was dos. Is that 1.5 or 1.0?? I always thought that 1.5 was windows. Anyone know where I can get it with a manual online??


Posts: 1736 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada [email protected] | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Clydewinder
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posted 09-10-2000 11:35 AM     Profile for Clydewinder   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have to agree that the Falcon 4 campaign is outstanding, but my favorite was the campaign from Innerloop's JSF. Being able to choose the missions and the overall campaign strategy really made that sim shine.

Posts: 97 | From: Milwaukee, WI USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
LeadHead
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posted 09-10-2000 12:39 PM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
There is a Flanker 1 version for windows as well.

Why don't you go ask the Flanker people that?


Posts: 775 | From: Piteć, Norrbotten, Sweden. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Turbo
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posted 09-10-2000 12:52 PM     Profile for Turbo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don't forget Tornado. Amiga/Atari also had the infamous F-16 Combat Pilot... both from DI. These classics had great dynamic campaigns, I think they were the first in fact.
Posts: 369 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Hornet_85
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posted 09-10-2000 02:57 PM     Profile for Hornet_85   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've still got my F-16 Combat Pilot. In fact I fired it up a couple of weeks ago. It's campaign is still comparable to some of the newer sims out there. Though in terms of graphics realism, and everything else that has evolved,........well what do you expect, it is lacking big time. Still fun 2 play occasionally though!
Posts: 198 | From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
patriotSTORM
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posted 09-10-2000 05:42 PM     Profile for patriotSTORM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The new EF2000 seems like it's going to have a very interesting campaign system.

------------------
With a heart of furious fancies,
Whereof I am commander,
With a burning spear and a horse of air,
To the wilderness I wander
-Tom O’Bedlams Song


Posts: 404 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
The Whistler
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posted 09-10-2000 05:50 PM     Profile for The Whistler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Why don't you go ask the Flanker people that?"

I dunno. For some reason they don't like me . Hardass commies !


Posts: 1736 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada [email protected] | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Heretic
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posted 09-11-2000 03:37 PM     Profile for Heretic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kurt,

Glad you mentionned F14 fleet defender, men now that i think of it those, you did good but others sucked so weŽre screwed thing where scarry!!!
I really had the feeling that iŽd better not screw up because if i failed iŽll get my ass whipped by the others who did good. The first ever time i felt part of a team.
Remember, you could choose your wingman from a rooster. With people already required, KIA, MIA, medical recovery, sleeping etc.
Once you got a good Wingie, youd better stick with it as it got better the loner he stayed with you.
Many time they saved the day while i was damaged or winchester, no good agaisnt those ugly bears that would tore you in no time.

But the cream of the cream was ef2000V2.0....
F4 do almost the same today, but the ef2000 atmosfear was better...The dak mood, the lone missions i had to fly in a suicidal strike against EW... The terrain masking sortie nose cold till the last moment....only watching russian CAP coming close to vector away at the last moment....canŽt do this in F4....
Those where good time, but betters are to come!!!!


Heretic


Posts: 546 | From: Brasil, Rio de Janeiro | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
G
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posted 09-11-2000 09:22 PM     Profile for G   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
(1) f4
(2) ef2000
(3) if22, if18
(4) Tornado


While ef2000 is the best sim ever made, f4 has a slight edge. At first I was going to be sentimental for ef2000. Ef2000 still is unmatched in as far as being a balanced sim. It had atmosphere, gameplay, seriousness.... But enough of that. F4 simply has way more features in its campaign than any other sim.

F4 has a ground war and ef2000 has not even a hint of it and so F4 is the winner the singular question of best campaign. But the f4 campaign has an important weakness that every sim seems to be missing because developers fail to see its importance.

And that weakness is a lack of atmosphere with the rest of a game. When you don't feel like you are somewhere else when you play a sim, then you don't really feel like you are part of a campaign. The illusion of a fictional war disintegrates.

F4 doesn't make you feel like you are in another place. The graphics and atmosphere seem to put me anywhere on the planet. I don't feel like I'm CERTAINLY in Korea in F4. But ef2000 made me CERTAINLY feel like I was somewhere cold and european. Anyone who has played ef2000 knows that. And that is ultimately what having fun in sims is about_"feeling like you are there". Hmmmm...maybe ef2000 does have the best campaign. Seriously!


I hope developers will take atmosphere and context into account more. And I hope that Typhoon gets developed with a balance of gameplay and seriousness.

Good day,

G


Posts: 37 | From: | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged

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