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Author Topic: Unbelivable story
mokster
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posted 04-10-2000 11:50 AM     Profile for mokster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am disputing a collegue's claim that while she was working in the air force, she personally witness a A4 super sky hawk whose one wing got shered off half way during a mid air collision land safely. Does the areo dynamics of a plane (other than the A10 or so I heard) even support this?
Posts: 1 | From: Singapore | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
AV7784
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posted 04-10-2000 12:11 PM     Profile for AV7784   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes, it is possible. It happened to an F-15 back in the 1980's
Posts: 88 | From: Aviano AB, Italy | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Zed
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posted 04-10-2000 04:11 PM     Profile for Zed     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
...and an F/A-18 a few years back...

Z


Posts: 866 | From: Midlands, UK | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Storm
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posted 04-10-2000 05:01 PM     Profile for Storm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
To expand a bit on this subject, it's true that certain aircraft can still fly with most if not all of a wing or major control surface missing. The F-15 in mention was an Israeli Air Force jet, that I believe mid-aired with an A-4. Using throttle inputs and rudders, the pilot made a safe recovery at his base. The reason for this is that the F-15 is such a huge airplane, the body acts like a wing, and also, the horizontal stabs are the size of some smaller aircrafts wings and provides substantial lift. Another example is a NB-52 that had it's entire vertical tail removed during another mid-air and it too made it home safely. The pilot barely noticed any loss in control inputs. I hope that helps you out a bit.

Storm

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"When Gorillas fly, Migs die!" 58th F.S.


Posts: 606 | From: Crestview, Florida USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lucky_1
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posted 04-10-2000 08:13 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I can understand an F-15 or F/A-18 surviving a wing clipping, but an A-4 Skyhawk surviving this seems highly unlikely. The A-4 is not exactly the strongest plane in the world, most mid-airs end in fiery explosions.

On the other hand, Strange things can and do happen in the world of aviation. Who knows, maybe it could've happened.

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Two beers, or not two beers. There is no question.


Posts: 635 | From: Knoxville, TN. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
xj_mike
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posted 04-11-2000 04:53 AM     Profile for xj_mike   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
We've all seen the pics of B-17s coming home with the worst imaginable damage.. Skyhawks were built in the day that composite materials weren't really used and aircraft were built to last. A4's (and other aircraft of their day) are built like fekkin tanks.
Posts: 239 | From: Lunar surface | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Bogey
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posted 04-12-2000 10:07 AM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The essence of it all being: Cut off the wings; they're not needed!

Hehehe...

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Up there, where the air is rare...


Posts: 339 | From: West coast of Sweden | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
shok
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posted 04-12-2000 11:25 AM     Profile for shok   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That's what the McD engineers said about the F-15: the wings are there only for holding the fuel tanks and the ordnance!

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plummerx
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posted 04-12-2000 12:10 PM     Profile for plummerx   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have a realplay movie of the F-18 on final with a chunk of wing missing on my website go here: http://www.domin8air.com/movies/movieindex4/movieindex4.htm

For a complete list of all movie clips go here: http://www.domin8air.com/movies/movieindex4/movieindex4.htm

Be sure to check out the entire site here: http://www.domin8air.com/


Posts: 570 | From: Graham WA USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
343LtPolarBear
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posted 05-03-2000 01:28 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Storm,
The F-15s stabilators are cambered?

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Andy Bush
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posted 05-03-2000 01:37 PM     Profile for Andy Bush   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Polar Bear

If you are wondering about the relationship of camber to lift (regards the F-15's horizontal stabilizer), the answer is that lift can be generated without a traditional wing camber shape. All that is needed is enough airspeed and angle of attack.

Andy


Posts: 595 | From: St Louis, Mo | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
CJ Martin
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posted 05-04-2000 07:11 AM     Profile for CJ Martin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
whoops wrong thread...

[This message has been edited by CJ Martin (edited 05-04-2000).]


Posts: 117 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
PolarBear
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posted 05-05-2000 04:02 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
How could it create lift if the air doesnt have to travel farther over the top than over the bottom of the airfoil?
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Turbo
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posted 05-06-2000 02:25 AM     Profile for Turbo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You're assuming it's straight and level. Besides, I was just reading on the NASA web site that there are other theories on lift and some even say that the traditional theory is incorrect. That's a heated debate for sure.
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Mark
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posted 05-06-2000 10:45 AM     Profile for Mark   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm a pilot and I definatly do not believe the traditional theory of lift. One experiment finds that the vaccum pressure per square inch created above the wing is no more then that of a baby sucking on a bottle. The conclusion was that the downwash of air behind the wing is what causes lift.

PS, Fold yourself a paper airplane. It will fly fine with no camber.


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Ghost5-2
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posted 05-06-2000 02:48 PM     Profile for Ghost5-2     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"PS, Fold yourself a paper airplane. It will fly fine with no camber."

I think you can hardly call that flying. Its more like flowing upon an air layer, a bit like floating on water.


Posts: 27 | From: Antwerp, Belgium | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
PBear
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posted 05-06-2000 04:09 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mark,
Downwash accounts for about 15%-20% of the overall lift created. Also if there was no camber there would be no downwash anyway.

P.S. If you fly a paper airplane you will notice that it doesnt create lift. It falls. The only way to make it go up is if you shoot it up with your arm.


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PBear
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posted 05-06-2000 04:11 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
So it will "crash" fine with no camber. There is no way an airplane that uses a non cambered wing, such as a paper airplane, could take off on it own even it it was powered.
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Mark
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posted 05-06-2000 08:00 PM     Profile for Mark   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

When I was 14, I broke the wing on my rubber band powered plane, so I replaced it with a piece of flat cardboard cut in the same dimensions of the plan view of the original wing, except of course, it was flat -it had no camber. Indeed it took off with a flat wing although less efficiently. Try it, its easy to do.

ghost5-2, by your definition, hang gliders aren't flying.

Ever see a cross section of the wings on the concord?

Another experiment : When your driving, put your hand out the window like a wing at 0' angle of attack. Now increase the angle of attack to 30' and you will feel your hand go up. There is no camber on your hand, yet something is pushing your hand up. It also works with a flat piece of cardboard.



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PBear
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posted 05-06-2000 08:49 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Concorde's wing is cambered. It is just a smaller camber. It uses a small camber to increase speed, and decrease drag. This also decreases lift though. Most fighters use this system. A cargo plane such as a C-5 or IL-76 uses a large camber which increases lift, decreases speed, and increases drag.

P.S. Your hand can be sort of cambered depending on how it is bent.


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Mark
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posted 05-06-2000 09:03 PM     Profile for Mark   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Pbear, you are right about how the hand can be cambered depending on how it is bent, however if you hold a flat piece of cardboard out the car window, at 30' angle of attack, it will exibit an extremely strong upward force.


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Mark
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posted 05-06-2000 09:05 PM     Profile for Mark   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Didnt mean to post it twice-browser malfunction

[This message has been edited by Mark (edited 05-06-2000).]


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The Whistler
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posted 05-06-2000 10:17 PM     Profile for The Whistler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
(It is polar i changed my name)

I know that! I was just replying to how you said a hand isnt cambered.


Posts: 1736 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada [email protected] | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Ghost5-2
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posted 05-08-2000 02:12 AM     Profile for Ghost5-2     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Your flat plate under an angle produces lift cause the air flowin over the plate follows a cambered streamline. So while you dont see camber, there is camber.
Posts: 27 | From: Antwerp, Belgium | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
slicer2
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posted 05-11-2000 03:27 PM     Profile for slicer2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Guys just read Chapter 1 of Stick and Rudder (an explanation of the art of flying) by Wolfgang Langewiesche. A wing flies because it pushes the air down. A fabulous book, any pilot must read it.
Posts: 71 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ghost5-2
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posted 05-11-2000 04:27 PM     Profile for Ghost5-2     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Slicer,

Read a modern book about aerodynamics, you'll find out a wing doesn't fly cause it pushes air down.


Posts: 27 | From: Antwerp, Belgium | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Hapy4evr
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posted 05-11-2000 05:49 PM     Profile for Hapy4evr   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
For those of you who are wondering about lift. Take a look at this page
http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/BGA/Monroe/lift_theories_act.htm

Posts: 143 | From: Buena Park, Ca. | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
SavoirFaire
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posted 05-11-2000 10:45 PM     Profile for SavoirFaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ever heard of knife-edge flight? A basic airshow trick that depends on power. The more power you have, the farther you can knife-edge before losing too much altitude. This is accomplished by angle of attack against the fuselage. At a bank angle of 45 deg, the vertical lift vector is effectively reduced by half; beyond that the lift vector is further reduced and altitude is maintained with rudder input (lifting the nose) and power, until you reach 90 deg bank (again, knife-edge). This is further proven by the fact that as bank angle increases, the stall speed also increases....i.e, you need more speed when flying with reduced lift. Also, flying inverted usually requires a little more angle of attack....in that case, you actually have a reverse camber, but it still flies.

But the analogy of the piece of cardboard out the car window is a little lame. I don't think that debris blown by a high wind, as in a storm, is actually flying. That is all you really have in this case.

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SavoirFaire is everywhere!!........


Posts: 29 | From: Newport Beach, CA USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
SavoirFaire
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posted 05-11-2000 10:58 PM     Profile for SavoirFaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As far as a plane flying with part of a wing gone..that's easy. The short wing would produce less lift than the undamaged wing, which would cause a roll in the direction of the short wing. Opposite aileron would reduce lift on the intact wing, while increasing lift on the damaged wing (assuming you still had that aileron). As long as this total lift is more than the weight of the plane, it will fly. But watch those steep banks on final.

Scotty, we need more Power!
I'm givin' her all she's got, Captain!!

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SavoirFaire is everywhere!!........


Posts: 29 | From: Newport Beach, CA USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
slicer2
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posted 05-12-2000 09:01 AM     Profile for slicer2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks hapy4ever for an excellent link..I'm really just happy that the efficient section on my beautiful sailplane lets me thermal just above the stall and fly fast between climbs with max efficiency..maths is for the birds!!
Posts: 71 | From: uk | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
AV7784
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posted 05-12-2000 09:16 AM     Profile for AV7784   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
holy $hit we've beaten this subject to death already. i saw two links on this same thing a few weeks ago.....just accept the fact that the wing was sheared off and quit wasting brain cells bitching at eachother disputing the other person's argument.

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Homer Simpson:
"Boy, just because you don't like your job doesn't mean you should quit. You should just do it really half-ass, thats the American way..."


Posts: 88 | From: Aviano AB, Italy | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged

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