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Author Topic: Enola Gay's Bombardier Dies-No Regrets To The End.
Tracer
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posted 03-21-2000 09:04 AM     Profile for Tracer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey i thought you guys would have had this news up straight away!(considering the historical value of it! So here a guy from Scotland brings the news that millions of Americans should know )
I waited 'till today to let you all know(and give any body else a chance to post it) that Thomas Ferebee died aged 81 on Friday past, the last living bombardier to drop a nuclear bomb in war.
The "other" bombardier-Kerman Beahan whom dropped "Fat Boy" died in 1989.
Ferebee retired in 1970 a Colonel,said he "never lost a minute's sleep" over dropping the bomb(aged 26)
He did say though: "I'm sorry a lot of people died from that bomb and i hate to think something like that had to happen to end the war"
"Millions of people are alive and free because of what our mission accomplished".
"Sure,Hiroshima was horrible.but war is horrible.I saw what the Germans did to Coventry and London and i saw what the Japanese did to allied prisoners of war".
"If we hadn't forced the surrender there would have had to be a land invasion of Japan and the estimates are that one million Americans and as many japanese would have died in it".
Ferebee said: "The whole city was covered in a mushroom cloud.The stem was forming and you could see pieces of houses sucked up into it,pieces of things flying through the air".
"But you couldn't see people at the height we were flying".
His death leaves four surviving Enloa Gay crew members; Tibbets,navigator-Ted Van Kirk,weapons officer-Morris Jepson and radio operator Richard Nelson.

There you go-End of an era

Tracer

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"Flying is the second greatest thing known to man!
The first is landing!!"


Posts: 681 | From: Edinburgh,Scotland | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Blaze
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posted 03-21-2000 11:05 AM     Profile for Blaze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What's that got to do with Jets?
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Bogey
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posted 03-21-2000 11:10 AM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
With you Blaze, but it was a bit interesting...

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Up there, where the air is rare...


Posts: 339 | From: West coast of Sweden | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
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posted 03-21-2000 11:27 AM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm sure the Japanese are dancing in the streets already.

Poor bastards, they have no idea how much more pain and suffering an invasion would have cost their country. I'll leave them to their fantasy world.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tracer
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posted 03-21-2000 01:50 PM     Profile for Tracer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Because the chances are Blaze-if this event hadn't happend *you* and your mom dad might not have been here! So get off your high horse and stop being condescending.
It's a well used forum and it's *factual*.
There are many older ex-pilots here that have flown during that time(in both jets and piston engined aircraft) and rather than post this on every forum, it's put here for the majority that appreciate it ok.
No one asked you to read it-or put your stupid comment in it?
Try telling that face to face with an old vet' "What's that got to do with Jets?"

Grow up man! and appreciate where you came from.
Is this just a case of "sour grapes" because i said i'm from Scotland -first with the news and all that??? It was a friendly joke!

Tracer

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"Flying is the second greatest thing known to man!
The first is landing!!"


Posts: 681 | From: Edinburgh,Scotland | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Blaze
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posted 03-21-2000 03:54 PM     Profile for Blaze   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don't take yourself so serious.
No one requires you posting this in every forum, Real Military Discussions/Historic or even /Current would be appropriate.
What's so hard in keeping this assorted?

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Swervin Irvin
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posted 03-21-2000 05:20 PM     Profile for Swervin Irvin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
May we all bow our heads for a moment, in honor of the passing of a man who served for his country, who served for his fellow Allied fighting men, and who served for all of us, by helping to stop the murderous Japanese.
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Major Tom
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posted 03-22-2000 09:25 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Damn strait Swervin Irvin, he was a good man and it was a good mission. I'm never going to let the Japanese forget about what they did to the world till they stop worshiping war criminals, then admit to the world and teach their children about what they did.

American, English, and German history classes teach about what they did that was wrong, dirty, shamefull and immoral in this world. Japanese dumb down figures or just plain dont admit to crimes against humanity and when they do admit they use worlds like, regretable and unfortunate.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Raver
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posted 03-23-2000 07:33 AM     Profile for Raver   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Amen Swervin!

The Raver has spoken!


Posts: 276 | From: Melb/Aust | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
JA
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posted 03-23-2000 02:58 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'd be interested to see some specific examples of the Japanese "worshipping" their war criminals, other than a few fringe groups and individuals (which can be found in the US, Germany, and the UK as well). Most Japanese people I have known (both here and on a trip to Japan I took when I was younger) have been reluctant to discuss the war at all, out of an understandable sense of shame and regret. I don't see that many Germans going out of their way to publicly dwell on the Holocaust. It would be bizarre to see the Japanese public conspicuously mourning Ferebee's death, don't you think? Nobody likes to have their cities leveled, whether or not the action was morally and militarily justified. I think a stronger case can be made that the use of atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was necessary but I don't expect enthusiastic agreement from the Japanese. I also think some murderers deserve the death penalty, but I don't expect their children to thank the executioner.
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Major Tom
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posted 03-23-2000 07:12 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The only shame and regret the Japanese got out of WWII was for not winning it. Every year the Japanese prime minister makes a trip to the shrine put up for several convicted and executed war criminals and prays. The sign above the shrine reads "several brave and honorable men that died for their country."

And the Germans actively take part in learning about the holocaust, they are damn sorry their fathers and grandfathers took place in it. Holocaust/anti-nazi books are consistantly best sellers in Germany, no except the incredibly small contingent of neo-nazi's dare deny what they did.

Germans HATE Nazi's (as much as you our I) so much so that when they get permission to march, like some KKK groups get permits to do here, they need full time police escourts or they would litterally be torn to pieces by ordinary Germans. I saw a young german man chuck his dirt bike off a 2 story building right into a whole bunch of marching nazi's one time.

I think japan's most senior and respected historians said it best "The rape of Nanking is a totaly fabricated and made up event, it never happened." Yeah...sure.

The things the Japs did in China shocked and horrified NAZI ADVISORS! NAZIS!!! THEY SCARED GOOSE STEPPING RACIST NAZIS WITH THEIR ACTIONS!!!

Now most of the Americans of Japanese decent know the Japanese living in Japan for what they are, they always have. Why else would hundreds of them fight the Axis in Europe in WWII? Most Japanese view "Japanese-Americans" in much the same way as the southern baptists view Jews. The Americans might move back to Japan, learn the customs, and speak the language, but they will never be considered one of the gang.

I've heard of Japanese Americans moving back to Japan and bearing children, those children where harrassed and treated with much the same silent distain as the parents where.

It's hard to explain all the little individual bigottries the Japanese have against people that dont fit in. Hell whole books have been written on the subject.

Anything you think that some Americans are bigotted to, the Japanese are 10x worse on the subject.

One woman executive that worked in Japan had this much to say "They already hate you for what you are, if you grab their balls and sqeeze, they'll just hate you more." One of the best descriptions of the Japanese mentality I've heard.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
JA
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posted 03-24-2000 06:47 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, I agree that Japan's atrocities in the period from 1931-1945 are very under-reported. Their conduct in China and other occupied territories was absolutely beyond the pale - easily in the same category as Germany's conduct in occupied Poland and the USSR. Also, Japanese racism towards other Asian ethnic groups is still a problem. Finally, the idea that Japan was some sort of "underdog" or "victim" in WWII is ridiculous - harmless, innocent nations don't mount major carrier strikes on US naval bases.

It is the blanket statements about entire nations that I don't agree with. Your description of the (modern) Japanese people just does not square with the majority of the Japanese I've known and read about. As for historians, have you read "The Pacific War" by Saburo Ienaga? Perhaps he is not representative of the mainstream, but that is the definitive book on Japanese atrocities from 1931-1945, written by a Japanese historian.

You're right that Nazis are generally pretty much hated in Germany, but there are still neo-nazi groups who demonstrate and propagandize. I don't hear about many marches in Tokyo by neo-"Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" advocates.

One final question, regarding the Prime Minister's visits to the shrine - who are the men buried there? Is their status as war criminals controversial or disputed, in either Japan or elsewhere? I'm thinking of Reagan's Bitburg visit here. Please take this question at face value - I haven't heard about this and would like to know more. Thanks for your above reply.


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Swervin Irvin
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posted 03-24-2000 11:05 AM     Profile for Swervin Irvin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I apologize if I have offended anyone. I meant my statement about the "murderous Japanese" to apply only to the aggressors of that era.

I feel the Germans and Japanese of today at least deserve respect for living in a peaceful manner for the last 50 years.


Posts: 497 | From: Redmond, Wa. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bogey
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posted 03-24-2000 04:27 PM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
People never start wars, politicians do!
Stop blaming the japanese for fighting a war, they, like the germans, were only following orders. Few germans were true nazis.
If they didn't, they would've been killed.
Fight or die, the choice is simple.

History showed that Japan was about to surrender within a few months, and the US knew it, when the decision to use the nuclear bombs was made.
There was never any need for an invasion, but of course that became the official story...
It was nothing more than a cruel experiment and a show of force.
Of course, this was not known by the B-29 crews, so I don't blame them at all.

------------------
Up there, where the air is rare...


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Lud von Pipper
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posted 03-24-2000 04:33 PM     Profile for Lud von Pipper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Swervin Irvin:
May we all bow our heads for a moment, in honor of the passing of a man who served for his country, who served for his fellow Allied fighting men, and who served for all of us, by helping to stop the murderous Japanese.

Quite stupid comment on your part:
As a matter of fact the bomb annihilated 150.000+ persons (and then there was Nagasaki too), mainly, childs and women (soldiers were at war).
Those who survived the deflagration kept dying a very diluited death, due to radiation, and many childrens were born deformed in the sequent years: murderous indeed these poor devils were.

You can be proud of the outcome of this mission!

LvP



Posts: 273 | From: Italy | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
stuff
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posted 03-25-2000 03:45 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You still don't get it do you folks. People are just people. Unless some power monger can rally them through whatever nationalistic ******** works at the time to get them to kill each other wholesale. Only the pricks at the top, pulling the strings benifit. Everyone else dies or suffers. Make the politicians stand in the front lines and I guarantee there is no more of this horror. Ever. Races or cultures don't start wars. Now days oil companies do. Everyone else are just moms and dads and kids and students and nurses and cops and people. To think that any country's people are somehow morally superior is crap. Unless you happen to believe your particular governments spin. Visit the world without a gun in your hand, then you may have enough insight to make your patriotic speach.

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.-" Einstein


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Major Tom
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posted 03-25-2000 04:41 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Japanese nationalism and racism is very difficult to find out in the open. Like some of the KKK guys here in the US, you could litterally work with one of those hatemongers for years and not even know he was one. Likewise you could be an American working overseas in Japan for years and have no clue about what they say behind your back. At best you would be tollerated.

The Japanese have some serious deep dark cultural issues with other races, women, cripples, and just about anyone else who doesn't fit the status quo. I say cultural issues because I am good friends with many Americans of Japanese decent that grew up here and simply dont share these Japanese cultural views.

Humans are Humans the world over, but Japan was so small and isolated for such a long period of time that they are still morally stuck in the middle ages.

In a way I feel sorry for the common Japanese man, in WWII. He was fed with lies of supperiority, destiny and racism. The only Japanese I know to be cured of their cultural upbrining where the ones that fought and survived the war. They litterally came to grips with the fact that everything they where raised to believe was a lie, a lie that wound up killing their comrades.

The Japanese tried to carve out an empire due to a lack of natural resources, they needed purchase our steel and oil to keep carving, we wouldn't sell to them, they attacked us, then they got everything they deserved. Simple as that. All that killing over some oil and metal, make you sick to your stomach doesn't it?

I dont believe the Japanese would have ever surrendered if we hadn't dropped the atomic bomb on Japan. None of the Japanese Generals wanted peace, they would have fought till the last man. The A-bomb showed them that they wouldn't even get a chance to die fighting if they didn't surrender.

Hell we gave them a chance to Surrender and thats a hell of a lot more than they gave 30,000,000 people in mainland asia.

The strange thing is, they make such bloody good cameras.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
JayP
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posted 03-25-2000 08:47 PM     Profile for JayP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Before the atom bombs were dropped, the Japanese leadership had debated and rejected surrender. The obvious conclusion to draw is that it was the atom bombs which forced the surrender. This is not so clear, however.

The report of the United States Strategic Bombing Survey on the Pacific war gives equal weight to Russia's entering the war in early August 1945 as a cause of the surrender. The report also mentions that Japanese officials claim they would have surrendered to sustained conventional bombing, even if there had been no allied invasion, Russia had not entered the war and the atom bombs had not been dropped. Some of them even said that this would likely have taken place by November 1st, the scheduled start of the invasion.

It is certainly the case that had the Japanese not surrendered by November 1st, the invasion would have gone ahead with great cost in life to both the allies and the Japanese. Even if the allies had stuck to conventional bombing to force a surrender, hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians would have been killed, as had been the case in Germany (I believe the estimate for German civilians killed by bombing in WWII is about 600,000).


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Sash
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posted 03-26-2000 08:24 AM     Profile for Sash   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As a student of History, I find your debate about the dropping of the atomic bomb quite interesting. However, let me say their is no absolute right answer. The fact is no one absoluting knows what Truman was thinking when he decided to drop the atomic bomb. Some historians argue that it was purely to prevent a costly invasion of the homeland. The more accepted view, however, is that the decision to drop the bomb was a slightly more complicated affiar with many different factors, one which was to end a costly (both in men and material) war quickly and another to prevent the Russians from gaining concessions in the Far East and particularly Manchuria. At the Yalta Conference in Feb 1945 Stalin agreed to enter the war against the Japanese. This agreement was made parly due to concessions by Roosevelt in Eastern Europe (the composition of the new Polish governement and German reparations).The first bomb was dropped on Aug 6 and the Russians declared war on Aug 8. This and Truman's attitude at the Potsdam conference in July and early Aug, tend to support the this view. Another interesting fact is that more people died in the fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo than the combined bomings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The decision to drop the second bomb is even more contraversial and leads to the conclusion that it was more aimed at the Russians than the Japanese. The first bomb was dropped on Aug 6 and the second on Aug 9. Critics complain that a sufficient amount was not given to the Japanese to respond to the first bomb, and than if given slightly more time after the first they would have likely have surrendered, again this is only speculation. The aim of this post is not to tell people how it really is, rather just to illustrate that the issue of the atomic bombs is not as straight forward as some of you make it out. Obviously no one will ever truly know the complete motives behind the dropping of the bombing but historians can speculate. Furthermore, I do not judge Ferebee he was simply doing what he thought was right.

Sasha


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John Wayne Jr.
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posted 03-26-2000 10:56 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kudos to the Historian!

for providing us with a viewpoint more substantial than one based upon some fetish with military technology or one rife with Oliver North-type grandstanding. When these strings leave technical matters and delve into historical and philosophical issues, it sadly ilustrates the lack of Humanities and historical process in American education.


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Swervin Irvin
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posted 03-27-2000 05:36 PM     Profile for Swervin Irvin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Bogey and Lud von Pipper:

In modern warfare, I don't believe there are any "innocents".

First, mass production is what wins major wars, and the general population of any fighting country is what powers that production. Any single non-combatant can have a greater practical effect on a war's outcome than any single fighting man, due to their ability to mass produce the materials of war, or breed the sons and daughters to fight a war.

That means any citizen, whether in a republic, or totalitarian government, MUST accept responsibility for the actions of their governments. Every single one of us, as a governed person, passively or actively, makes our government's actions possible, makes our government's wars possible.

The Japanese people as a whole slaughtered millions. They paid a terrible price.

The American people as a whole have slaughtered millions, and we may yet have to pay the price for our wrongful aggressions, but most of the time, we fought when our brothers begged us for help, and they cheered us when we liberated them from their oppressors.

Lud von Pipper, you can call me stupid, for wanting to honor another who was willing to give his life to protect his neighbor, but the simple fact is, without Americans like him, most of this world might still be in the hands of murderous bastards like the Japanese Generals, Russian Stalinists, and Nazis.

What has your nation done for its neighbors?

Would you have the guts to face the aggressors?

I don't know if I would, so I am eternally grateful to that generation of men and women who have given me the sacred gift of freedom.


[This message has been edited by Swervin Irvin (edited 03-27-2000).]


Posts: 497 | From: Redmond, Wa. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Hevyg
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posted 03-27-2000 06:30 PM     Profile for Hevyg   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swervin Irvin:

"In modern warfare, I don't believe there are any "innocents"."

"That means any citizen, whether in a republic, or totalitarian government, MUST accept responsibility for the actions of their governments."

Sir-

Based upon the two quotes that I have taken from your last entry, I have to concur with Von Pipper that you are indeed, stupid. Or at least, glaringly ignorant.

Read these quotes aloud and ask yourself if you honestly believe them. If so, I suspect you suffer from an extreme detachment from the human experience.

Ask any veteran about innocents; ask any fellow human being who has ever lived under a totalitarian regime if the citizenry there shoulders the same responsibilities for their government as those in a democratic republic. Boy, have you got some learning to do!


Posts: 120 | From: Puget Sound | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Swervin Irvin
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posted 03-28-2000 09:49 AM     Profile for Swervin Irvin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, Hevyg, at least you called me sir before you started the insults!

My IQ, a rather poor measure of intelligence, is 135, care to whip yours out? ;-)

I don't think it's a hopelessly idealistic point of view, it's hopelessly pragmatic.

In theory, the oppressed peoples have no responsibility for their governments actions, in practice, they are paying for its actions with their lives.

Those poor, oppressed, helpless Japanese did nothing about their leadership, who paid when the Fatman and Littleboy came knocking on the door?

The Iraqi people have put up with Saddam for quite a while, who paid when the cruise missles flew?

Ho Chi Minh was my country's enemy, but he led his people, and they threw out colonial rule. They chose their own form of government. More power to them.

Fidel Castro led the Cubans to a new government, good for them.

If those poor bastards in Iraq, or China, or wherever, don't do anything to change their governments, no one else is going to do it for them.



Posts: 497 | From: Redmond, Wa. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jedi Master
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posted 03-28-2000 10:24 AM     Profile for Jedi Master   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The Cubans down here in South Florida seem to think it's up to the US to get Fidel out. They're certainly not going over there! But they'll make everyone else's life here a living hell trying to get their way. Of course, if you think they'd ever go BACK once Fidel's gone...
The Jedi Master

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Hevyg
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posted 03-28-2000 01:18 PM     Profile for Hevyg   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sir,

It's higher than yours (not by much), but IQ is pretty irrelevant-at least in your case a sub-genius IQ indicates that your situation is one of ignorance rather than stupidity...I retract my statement.

Judging by your statements, I would conclude that you still enjoy the opportunity to interact with fellow humans who *have* known life under totalitarian rule; for them, the decision to bring about change is one made when the outrage with the reality of *normal* life overwhelms their fear of terror, imprisonment, torture, and/or murder.

Would you please elaborate on the line of thinking you used in your premise that people paying the price of their government's actions (being bombed) constitutes bearing responsibility for their government?


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Swervin Irvin
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posted 03-28-2000 02:41 PM     Profile for Swervin Irvin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Perhaps my premise was flawed, but what I believe is this:

Whether its people agree with its policies or not, a country can't make war without some type of economy to buy or build weapons, food, etc. Citizens power an economy, provide moral support to troops, and supply the troops.

That is where I believe the responsibility arises. It's the citizens who make the war possible, we are not innocent of what our output or complacency can inflict.

I don't believe I am ignorant of the suffering a people must endure under tyrants like Hussein or Stalin. I have known Russian Jews, Vietnamese citizens,combatants, re-education camp internees, boat people, Berlin residents in the 40's. I have read of Treblinka. What these experiences have taught me is that we must be responsible for our own actions as much as we should face up to what is done on our behalfs, or in our names.


Posts: 497 | From: Redmond, Wa. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
JayP
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posted 03-28-2000 04:05 PM     Profile for JayP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Swervin, you are perfectly correct to say that any state's war-making ability is dependent upon its economy and hence its citizens. It does not follow from this, however, that it is legitimate or desirable to kill civilians during wartime.

Most people take the view that killing people is a bad thing and to be avoided whenever possible. I take it that this is the reason that most people are more comfortable with, e.g., bombing factories rather than the homes of the people who work in them.

So far as culpability goes, we may condemn the populations of Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan for their acquiescence in the crimes of those states, but this is not to say that they should be killed for it.

[This message has been edited by JayP (edited 03-28-2000).]


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florrb
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posted 03-28-2000 05:44 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
A couple of comments:
>Blaze is right. What is this doing under 'JETS'? This has nothing to do with jets or jet sims, and there's other forums where it would be appropriate instead.
>As for how much suffering the invasion of Japan was going to cause; the answering is NONE AT ALL! There wasn't going to be an invasion! I find it sickeningly ironic that some of the same people who claim that Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor (CRAP! The Japanese never dicussed it over the airwaves and didn't tell their embassy about it) then choose to ignore the fact that the deciphered intercepts clearly showed that Japanese embassies were instructed to surrender unconditionally before the invasion could take place.
> As far as morality is concerned; in war the only moral issues are-Winning the war, Ending the war, and keeping the death toll down-in that order. Hiroshima MIGHT have shortened the war, but the war was already won so it's morally ambiguous. The other terror-bombings of civilians failed on all three counts, of course, so the only defense is that they thought(wrongly) that it would work.

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Vector
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posted 03-30-2000 12:50 PM     Profile for Vector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Let us think of the good things that came out of the bombings. The US got to test it's
brand new weapon in the field, and we got to witness actual nuclear warfare.
Furthermore, we have been able to study the effects of radiation from such devices over a
very long period of time. Other countries also learned not to mess around with those who
poses such devices, or that's what's gonna happen to them.

Now if you seriously think I believe any of that, then I think you might have gotten a
dose of that radiation.

Consider this: The US needed payback for the bombing of pearl harbor, and the ability to
obliterate a couple of Japans cities seemed ample opportunity for administering that
payback. I'm sure it helped moral a lot for the general anti-Japanese attitude at the time.
Is it this simple, that the US simply wanted revenge?

After all, the attack on pearl harbor was unannounced, and could be considered cowardly
and dishonorable. Not to mention all the atrocities the Japanese committed during the
war. Maybe it was just a way to appease the outraged North American people (at the time) but ended up backfiring in this more modern and so called "civilized" time.

------------------
-\/ector, Flight Sim Sympathizer


Posts: 903 | From: Comox, BC, Canada | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
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posted 03-30-2000 03:05 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
After those crazy japs went all kamakazi, who in the western world had any clue as to what they where thinking.

As usual there is no right answer to why we droped the bomb. I believe that our president believed that the japanese would fight to the last man and an invasion would be too costly. The "testing", revenge and russian factors where mearly the icing on the cake.

The Japanese got every single little thing they deserved.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lud von Pipper
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Member # 82

posted 03-30-2000 05:13 PM     Profile for Lud von Pipper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Swervin Irvin:

As you can well see, my post point out that "your statement is stupid", not you personally.
I NEVER use to insult peoples on forums, since I have no clue on who you are and what you do in your life.

A war is a war, and uses to slaughter peoples: I do not blame US, or any one else, for killing peoples as a side effect of an attak.
I blame when the attak is aimed at the extermination of civil peoples, like, between other, the bombing runs over Amburg and Dresda, if this makes that little bell in your head rings (and yes, it's a sad news the this new fashon was teorized by the Italian General Duhet).
More than ever, I blame when the attak actually keeps killing AFTER the war is ended, like A-Bombs did, or like land mines does now.
I don't care what your IQ could possibly be, nor I've ever tried a test of that kind on myself: I simply do not believe that a child, died in the early fifties of leucemia near Hiroshima could have got your points about responsibility of civil peoples for the behaviour of their government (nor could someone, blown up on a forgotten anti-person mine in some obscure part of Black Africa).
Surely and understandably he could have had the right to blame those who's inresponsible acts led to his present state of thing (as a matter of fact, for the itch of trying that new toys just available on the shelf).

Do you remember Eisenhower reiterately asking for permission to nuclearely vetrify North Corea to show Stalin and Mao what a big stick the mighty USA had?
Fortunately he was removed before he could do any harm...

Do you believe North Coreans would have got his point?

LvP



Posts: 273 | From: Italy | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
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Member # 1256

posted 03-31-2000 04:53 AM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I blame the japanese for the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And all the nice little after effects that go along with those little party favors.

Lets get one thing strait. Those people the US bombers killed in Dresden and numerous other cities where factory workers, mass amounts of the poor fools living on the outskirts of factories. What the US did was different from the wholescale spray and pray approach that the british went for with night bombing those cities.

Remember what those nazi factory workers where fighting for?! I'm honestly hoping I dont have to remind you. I blame their deaths on Adolf Hitler and he got what he deserved.

Civil people dont make ball bearings, petrol and weapons for governments that kill a few million people because they where different.

We didn't care about Japans dirty little war, hell we didn't even know about those attrocities. They litterally come out of the blue and attack us . Our fleets weren't poised for a massive invasion of japan for the sole purpose of raping and pillaging. The Japanese didn't surrender just before the bomb was droped on Hiroshima, hell, it took two nuclear bombs before they would agree to surrender.

We didn't have our bombers half way on the way to Berlin and Dresden when the Germans where forced to defend themselfs by sending U-Boats into the gulf of mexico and the eastern seaboard to sink our ships and land sabotours.

The blame lies with them, all of it.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wallimiyama
Member
Member # 3990

posted 03-31-2000 09:31 AM     Profile for Wallimiyama   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Any non US citizen posters will have to cut us a little slack. We're getting pretty defensive since we've been generally bashed both by most of the globe and domestically by a liberally biased press and generally ignorant populace (I freely admit that most of our ills, we bring on ourselves)
I saw this little tidbit and thought it might be appreciated by some who have posted on this subject.

Oh, yea - don't let the user name confuse you. I got the nickname because I decided to try a little sumo while serving with the Marine Corps on the rock.

Subject: TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed
in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany,
Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris
of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other
billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on
its remaining debts to the United States. When the franc was in danger of
collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I
saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to
help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody
helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of
the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the
world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the
Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines
except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about
German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American
technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and
safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right
in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not
pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they
are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home
to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age,
it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the
New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still
broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San
Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian
who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of
this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb
their nose
at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
not one of those."

Stand proud, Americans. This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read
regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it, I only wish
that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for
everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do. I would hope
that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize
that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent
to every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read this,

------------------
-Wally

Are we havin' fun yet?


Posts: 34 | From: Wernersville, PA | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
'
Member
Member # 3472

posted 03-31-2000 04:39 PM     Profile for '   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Lots of it...

------------------
... --- ... --- ... --- ...


Posts: 445 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Lud von Pipper
Member
Member # 82

posted 03-31-2000 07:01 PM     Profile for Lud von Pipper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Does these kind of threads always have to degradate in "Americans vs the rest of the world"?
I'm speaking of personal responsibilities, and my targets are easy to find out.

Grow up!
LvP


Posts: 273 | From: Italy | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Hunter Cole
Member
Member # 3440

posted 03-31-2000 07:28 PM     Profile for Hunter Cole   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lud von Pipper:
Swervin Irvin:

As you can well see, my post point out that "your statement is stupid", not you personally.
I NEVER use to insult peoples on forums, since I have no clue on who you are and what you do in your life.

A war is a war, and uses to slaughter peoples: I do not blame US, or any one else, for killing peoples as a side effect of an attak.
I blame when the attak is aimed at the extermination of civil peoples, like, between other, the bombing runs over Amburg and Dresda, if this makes that little bell in your head rings (and yes, it's a sad news the this new fashon was teorized by the Italian General Duhet).
More than ever, I blame when the attak actually keeps killing AFTER the war is ended, like A-Bombs did, or like land mines does now.
I don't care what your IQ could possibly be, nor I've ever tried a test of that kind on myself: I simply do not believe that a child, died in the early fifties of leucemia near Hiroshima could have got your points about responsibility of civil peoples for the behaviour of their government (nor could someone, blown up on a forgotten anti-person mine in some obscure part of Black Africa).
Surely and understandably he could have had the right to blame those who's inresponsible acts led to his present state of thing (as a matter of fact, for the itch of trying that new toys just available on the shelf).

Do you remember Eisenhower reiterately asking for permission to nuclearely vetrify North Corea to show Stalin and Mao what a big stick the mighty USA had?
Fortunately he was removed before he could do any harm...

Do you believe North Coreans would have got his point?

LvP


<< Hey Swervin Irvin.

Get your facts right.
The general who wanted to use the Bomb on North KOREA was McARTHUR- GEN. DOUGLAS MCARTHUR, who was the Supreme Commander in Korea.

It was this and other disagreements with the TRUMAN Admin. that got him s***canned in 1951.

Eisenhower on the other hand was the Chief of Staff of the Army ( the top slot in the US Army) and he retired later that year and began his run for the Presidency.

Eisenhower, did not advocate the use of the Bomb in Korea at any time during the war and later in his candiacy.

Check your history sir.


Posts: 184 | From: Danville, Va USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Hunter Cole
Member
Member # 3440

posted 03-31-2000 07:34 PM     Profile for Hunter Cole   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My mistake Swervin Irvin. That reply should've gone to the Count Von Lippen
Posts: 184 | From: Danville, Va USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cookie
Member
Member # 836

posted 03-31-2000 07:35 PM     Profile for Cookie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wallimiyama, I love your country, I have many friends there and I visit it as often as I can. I really am in love with the States, but ******** like that makes me sick. Get your facts straight before you post crap like that. I too hate it when these threads turn into US vs. the rest discussions, because I do love your country (I believe I said that already). Seeing someone posting this kind of rubbish makes it easy for me to understand though why some people do not like the States.
Nuff said.

P.S. As for that ridiculous Boeing, Lockheed, Douglas etc. aircraft are the only ones everyone uses: I find it strange that someone posts something like this in a forum that is dominated by people that do know their stuff when it comes to aviation. Ever heard of Airbus Industries? Hate to burst your bubble dude, but they actually sold 476 machines in 1999, while Boeing only sold 391 in 1999.


Posts: 685 | From: Dortmund, Germany | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Cookie
Member
Member # 836

posted 03-31-2000 07:38 PM     Profile for Cookie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
another thing that makes me sick is censorship by the way. How come this board turns the word B_U_L_L_S_H_I_T into stars?
Posts: 685 | From: Dortmund, Germany | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
JayP
Member
Member # 858

posted 03-31-2000 07:53 PM     Profile for JayP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The quotation above is most probably from the 1970s, when U.S. draft dodgers living in Canada were still being supported by their parents, and before DC-10s started dropping out of the sky.

I personally believe that the United States is the greatest country on Earth, but some of its past and present actions deserve criticism.


Posts: 531 | From: | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged

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