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Author Topic: Russians used banned "Vacuum" bombs in Chechnya!
mbaxter
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posted 03-14-2000 08:38 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Lucky_1 - believe me I'm no hippy. As for Vietnam, I think the entire US gov't who imposed criminal restrictions on the way our forces had to fight are guilty of murdering 65,000 of our boys and should have been lined up and shot, every last traitorous one of them. If the generals of this nation had had any morals, and some balls, they would've have a coup and executed that entire Johnson administration. Vietnam should have been fought to win, period.

Anyway, my comments about the F22 and US defense spending in general still stand. The Cold War is over. We spend to much on the military, that's all there is too it. More importantly I don't think we should have an omnipotent military because our politicians can be expected to misuse such power.

But that's a topic for another discussion.

As for Chechnya, you folks who feel sorry for them just remember they are nothing more than Muslim radicals and they hate us with every fiber of their being. If Chechnya were on the US border they'd be killing us instead. They don't like anybody except Muslims, and heck, even after they drove everyone but the "pure" out back in 1997, all they could do was engage in murder and banditry against their own civilians and any foreigners stupid enough to go there.


Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Hunter Cole
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posted 03-14-2000 09:41 PM     Profile for Hunter Cole   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Heretic:
war has no rule,
Geneva treaty today is toilet paper as it has always been, and frankly they are ********.. as sayd before,shotgun not allowed but nuke, blowtorch, landmines etc are...ha!
The first intent of war is winning, the most you kill the better it is.
Is there's no one left there's no threat right!
look at human history... no war was ever clean or fair. They never will be.
And you americain talking of fairness, how innocent you guys are...
You look almost like the first war european soldier that went to war with flowers in theyr rifles, smiling happys!!!
The worst of all is the fact that you play WAR sims, do you think ~virtual~ population doesn't suffer???
The funniest is the fact that you aren't able to stop your internal war. have someone looked at how many people are killid/injured/krippled by fireweaponry in us by year??

Wars a **** ... but it brings money,power and status to the winning side....
As long as greed exist we're f*ck*p....


To finish..

By the time I was 18 I knew I would be in the service, wether it was by the Draft or by my own choice..

And one of the first things I learned at Parris Isand was that war is not glorius nor is everyone a hero. I was there to learn how to be a Marine and to serve my country.

And I did. I was lucky. I never saw the face of war upfront, but I did see the results and the effects it left on those who did. It wasn't pretty either. I saw a man with a 4" scar on his leg where a AK-47 round had hit him. I met a young man of 28 with grey hair and scars both physicaly and mentaly from being a VC POW. I talked with refugees from Nam who were trying to make it in a unfriendly and new enviroment.

War is a horrible thing.

And if flying a sim like falcon or playing a war game brings home the fact that war is terrible then it's worth it.

So tell me..

What is it that YOU play sir? Is it Quake or Half Life where you frag some alien intent on destroying the planet?

Is it a dungeon and dragon type game like Ultima or Myth?

Is it one of the Mario Bros?

Have you even thought that even so called G games like Pokemon or Mario doesn't have it's own share of destruction in it?

Perhaps you play Hoyle's card games or how bout a nice game of chess?

stop and think about it...

War is Hell and that's the sad fact of it.
If you don't like the slant of military sims then don't fly them. If you don't like dropping a couple of ton of HE on a enemy tank column to save a surrounded unit, then you don't need to fly F-15 or anyother flight sim.

Don't go slamming those of us that do. I personally hope and prey that my son, who is a LCPL in the USMC as a armorer in a artillery unit, never has to go somewhere to fight and that he never has to have the title combat veteran tacked onto his name.

The US isn't innocent and nor is Brazil, Hounduras, Urugrauy, innocent . check your own history sir.

Semper Fi


Posts: 184 | From: Danville, Va USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
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posted 03-15-2000 12:44 AM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
From what I've heard Vietnam is heading for another common mans revolution. Fear not, the seeds of evil don't grow for very long in any place they are planted. The final straw for the farmers was their land being sold to chinese and north korean developers and not seeing one dime. I'm hearing of fairly open conflict between the farmers and the Vietnamese security forces.

Guess a couple smart ones stashed away some AK's just in case this communism thing didn't work out

...and it didn't

Dont mess with a Vietnamese farmer, you'll get hell and a half in return.

BTW, what they hell are the russians doing in chechnya? They've never controlled the region and their two bit goose stepping grandfathers didn't either.

Recipe for Chechnya:
-Blow stuff up
-Get the hell out
-Declare yourselves winners

Repeat as needed


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rosco
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posted 03-15-2000 12:55 AM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
JA >

I think the results in Chechnya today, as opposed to 4 years ago, speak for themselves. The Russians are doing a lot more killing and a lot less dying this time around. Going to war under some humanitarian pipe-dream like the Geneva Convention is like sticking to Queensbury rules in a brutal bar brawl.

He with the power, makes the rules. Thinking yourself morally superior won't stop an enemy who remembers this rule from killing you and removing your influence from the world.

I remember the story of the samurai who bravely strode out to greet a host of landed Mongol warriors who had survived the hurricane that had wrecked most of their invasion force. The samurai proudly called out his distinguished warrior lineage and challenged the Mongols to personal combat. They filled him with arrows. Honor has no place in war.

------------------
"And those that don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
JA
unregistered

posted 03-15-2000 06:39 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, okay, might makes right - go ahead and ignore the "pipe dream" of the Geneva Convention and deliberately bomb hospitals and torture POWs. Let's hear no criticism, though, of the SS massacres at Le Paradis and Oradour, or the disgraceful and atrocious treatment US fliers received in North Vietnamese prisons.
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Hunter Cole
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posted 03-15-2000 08:59 AM     Profile for Hunter Cole   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Heretic:
war has no rule,
Geneva treaty today is toilet paper as it has always been, and frankly they are ********.. as sayd before,shotgun not allowed but nuke, blowtorch, landmines etc are...ha!

<<The Geneva Accords are like alot of other treaties between countries sir. They are worth is based on the execution of the Government of those accords. if the govt like the US for example treats the POWs with humanity and observes the accords to the letter then all well and good. If the enemy govt doesn't or only partially practices them then the paper is only so much. Countries usually treat the POWs as the way the war is going. Examples: North Vietnam's treatment of downed US pilots. Every pilot in the Hanoi Hilton was maltreated, tortured and interogated way past the point when any information would have been of value to them.
Their conditions didn't improve untill just before the Paris Accords were signed. Afterwards, the treatment was better. Yet VC and NVA POWs were treated by the US according to the Accords.

The first intent of war is winning, the most you kill the better it is.
Is there's no one left there's no threat right!

<< The principle of Total War was first used by the Union Armies in 1864. Destroy the supply base and you destroy the enemy's ability to fight. Sherman's March and Sheridan's Shenandoah campaigns showed this to be a factor in the defeat of the CSA. Add to the war of Attrition that Grant used against Lee all combined to end the war, otherwise it might have lasted longer or ended with the US and CSA being two seperate countries.

All subsequent conflicts used the principal of when you make war on another country, you strike not only at his units in the field, but also at his industrial, agricultural and civillian bases. WWI ended only after the German Population had had enough of the shortages of food and essentials and deposed the Kaiser. WWI ended only after the Axis countries had been totally devestated by the Allies. Korea was a limited war and had restrictions to what could and couldn't be used. Same thing as in Nam. The Gulf was more along the lines of WWII.

look at human history... no war was ever clean or fair. They never will be.

And you americain talking of fairness, how innocent you guys are...
You look almost like the first war european soldier that went to war with flowers in theyr rifles, smiling happys!!!

<< And what did your troops look like when your country went to war against it's neighbors look like? I don't believe they were as grim looking a bunch either.

Americans don't like war sir. We tried to stay out of as many conflicts as we can, but with great power comes great responsibility.
I can assure you, that none of the US troops now in the Balkins, want to be there, but they are soldiers and soldiers do what they are ordered to do and so there they are. Where is the Brazillian Army Peacekeepers? I don't seem to recall seeing any units from your country there or for that matter anywhere else.

The worst of all is the fact that you play WAR sims, do you think ~virtual~ population doesn't suffer???

<< Uh huh. What do you propose that we play sir? CandyLand? Chutes and Ladders?

We play war games not so much as a way of fostering war mongering, but as a way of learning. What if Hitler had been successful at defeating the British at El Alamien, or invaded Britain and forced the country to surrender? What would have happened had a lowly Ynk corporal hadn't found Lee's general orders wrapped around a couple of cigars and McClellan hadn't been able to defeat him at Antietam?

Chess, I may remind you sir, is a war game in a way. You try to capture the King with as little loss to yourself. The only difference is there isn't any guns or explosives or blood involved.


The funniest is the fact that you aren't able to stop your internal war. have someone looked at how many people are killid/injured/krippled by fireweaponry in us by year??

<< And I suppose your Brazillians don't have any kind of fire arms or death by firearms there? Hey one of the biggest importers of handguns to the US is Brazil. Explain that one. You manufacture them cheap and can be bought here for around $200 US or less. But then again Brazil is the land of the happy people, where all is peaceful and serene and you guys aren't destroying your own forests.

Glass houses are susceptable to rocks.
Don't throw'em.

Wars a **** ... but it brings money,power and status to the winning side....
As long as greed exist we're f*ck*p....

<< Quite true, but we can hope that one day we will change that.

Semper Fi



Posts: 184 | From: Danville, Va USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
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posted 03-15-2000 08:12 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It's sad that the Japanese didn't learn anything from WWII. They worship their brutal war criminals and flat out deny killing 30 million people in china, any other attrocities for that matter. Unlike the Germans, who now actively try to beat the crap out of Neo-Nazi scum. Infact those ignorant japanese scum think that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki where the worst of all war crimes in WWII.

Edith Cresson was right, they truely are a nation of ants. Someday, we're just gonna have to blow em all to hell...again. Deep down they still think they are the master asian race and they still want their empire in the sun.

I cant abide people like that.

If there is one war I can have a completely clean conscience about us fighting, it was fighting the Japanese in WWII. They got everything they deserved back in spades.

It's like beating the crud out of a complete stranger who slugged you, then restraining him. Afterwards the poor bastard crys out "no fair, I had no realistic chance of beating you anyways!" To that I reply, quit your bitchin, dont slug me in the first place dumbshit.

You gotta hand it to the japs, they have perfect 20/20 hindsight when it comes to history. For such good businessmen with long term outlooks. They really never learned what cause and effect is.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
JA
unregistered

posted 03-15-2000 10:36 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't know, you're not really describing the Japanese public as I've seen it. I agree, Japanese war crimes (including and perhaps even especially those prior to WWII) are truly staggering in their scale and intensity and are not nearly as well known as the atrocities perpetrated by Nazi Germany, and the idea that Imperial Japan was a hapless "victim" of Western imperialism and aggression is absolutely absurd, but I think Japan has really changed dramatically since 1945 - in fact, changed as much as any society has ever changed in such a short period. Chalk it up the salutary effects of a major defeat, the benevolent administration of General MacArthur, or the intellectual and spiritual resourcefulness of the Japanese people, but I truly believe that the Japan of 2000 has little in common with the Japan of 1931-1945. In any case, it is only natural for a nation to focus on the wrongs done to it rather than the wrongs it did to others. Easy to say that the atomic attacks on Japan were justified by the circumstances of the war (for which I believe a good case can be made), harder to feel if you are Japanese - you know what I mean? Germans may be ashamed of the Holocaust, but I doubt that they look back fondly on the incendiary attacks on Dresden.
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Rosco
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posted 03-15-2000 10:45 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
JA >

The only way to prevent atrocities against your own people is to make your enemy fear the consequences. Anything not guaranteed with force just isn't guaranteed.

------------------
"And those that don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rosco
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posted 03-15-2000 10:52 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Damn double posts.


------------------
"And those that don't like it, eat a gun"

[This message has been edited by Rosco (edited 03-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rosco (edited 03-15-2000).]


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
JA
unregistered

posted 03-15-2000 11:03 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rosco - I agree, but I don't think the Geneva Convention is incompatible with waging a swift, effective, and decisive war. Like all good laws, it attempts (however weak and inconsistent the implementation and enforcement) to bring accountability to those who would let sloppiness and emotion overpower moral responsibility and cloud sound military judgment. That is why it bans, for example, chemical weapons and the taking of civilian hostages but not the use of, say, tanks and close support aircraft. Look at the Iraqi use of chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war. A clear case of a gross violation of the Geneva Protocols, a clear case of an appalling and inhuman act, and finally, a clear case of an unbelievably stupid and unprofessional tactical approach.
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Rosco
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posted 03-16-2000 12:04 AM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If using chemical weopons or taking hostages advanced my cause and saved my troops you'd bet I'd use them. If my enemy tried to shield himself with civilians or operate in civilian areas, I'd bomb anyway and let them deal with vastly more casualties than would have otherwise been the case.

I don't the Chinese will have any trouble beating the weak, soft country that the U.S. has allowed itself to become. American spent most of the Cold War fearful and reactive to the Soviet Union and it's allies. This isn't the same country who savagely fought and crushed Imperial Japan.

------------------
"And those that don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Bobb
unregistered

posted 03-16-2000 12:32 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I highly reccommend www.fas.org
The Federation of American Scientists (if I recall correctly what FAS stands for) appear to have a quite in-depth site exploring many of the issues spoken to on this forum. I haven't begun to explore the whole site, but it is HUGE, and appears to be extremely well kept up by a highly motivated group.

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JA
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posted 03-16-2000 01:19 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That's the point. Those sort of techniques do not advance your cause - they harm it. Did Nazi hostage-taking and POW massacring bring them closer to victory? Did Iraqi chemical attacks result in a decisive victory over Iran? Did the Soviet Union's numerous atrocities in Afghanistan result in the defeat of the Mujahedin? These are the acts of individuals and institutions devoid of morality, imagination, common sense, and military skill and discipline. Depraved acts are depraved acts, no matter who commits them.
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Spectre
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posted 03-16-2000 10:39 AM     Profile for Spectre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Excellent post Rosco.
Posts: 900 | From: Colorado | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Heretic
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posted 03-16-2000 10:41 PM     Profile for Heretic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Damn men i got a hunter cole at my back.

Sorry Hunter but you misunderstood most of my post and you kill yourself your own answers.
By your position i understand that you gone military and own a lot to them...i respect that but please think before answering... Especially if you think the post is a half flame.

Geneva is paper toilet.... althought your answer quite aggressively your give your yes without perceiving it.
Geneva is toilet paper you use both only when it suits you period.

Treating POW in a reasonable fashion (no torture psy or fisic) is always an advantage.
Especially if you fight a poor army. Capture some, treat them good, allow some escape so the "fugitive/messagers" will pass the message, this will lower the morale of ennemy troops which will fight with lesser conviction and be more prompt to surrender than die. Tactic as old as SUN-TSU and very well applyed in desert storm.

next topic:
" the most you kill...." Men you take it too much at heart. i agree that this seem more a Sicilian MAfia tactic than anything else.


Next : American don`t like wars, with great power comes great responsabilities...
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA never seen such abuse of these cliches....Look at the conflict youve been involved...Take an ideological and economical analise, then try to enumerate the conflict US been involved only for PURE humanitarian reasons. compare how much war effort was comited in each conflict, then will discuss again.
And please try not to come down on me with sanctominous speech, why do you think my nickname is Heretic...

And what did your troop looks like ....
Isn[t my post against war? do i not say its sh!it?

The worst of all is the fact that you play WAR sims, do you think ~virtual~ population doesn't suffer???
Can`t you see this is a joke?!?!? Man your day must have been a crap!!!
Relax....

And I suppose your Brazillians don't have any kind of fire arms or death by firearms there? Hey one of the biggest importers of handguns to the US is Brazil. Explain that one. You manufacture them cheap and can be bought here for around $200 US or less. But then again Brazil is the land of the happy people, where all is peaceful and serene and you guys aren't destroying your own forests.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHHAHAHAHAH.... sorry. Its not my fault if you buy the weappons made here.
Happy land here yeah i do not coun[t anymore the nights i wake up with heave firearm firing with tracers.... some time from now a guy offered me a AR15 with 50 bullet box for less than 500US. He sayd that ar 15 sucks and drugdealers here know better than risk they lives with crappy armement so they went to SIG....Isn[t your goverment doing the same???

One major diference is that we don[t have cowboy complex and our childs doesn[t shoot at themselves for mere pleasure...

Burning forest.. yeah it sucks, but take a look at your country remaining forests....look whos cutting them... you country sucks as much has BRASIL in this point, without saying that yourmother ****ing companys are cutting all central amirican forest... BTW i[m french...
HAHHAHAHAHAHAH men your argument are really funny of so sad.


You really believe we can change human nature... How do you believe our race prevailed so much??? only by cunning?? ha.. violence is part of us you better accept that. Why do you think 1 shooter games do such a sucess??? simply because its a way to release our natural aggressiveness and keep it under control...

Relax men, i love flight sim....i hate war...or any kind of violence althought i would hesitate much less in killing a human (depending of the circunstances) being than an animal after all our race is far from being endangered...by anything other than itself.


Posts: 546 | From: Brasil, Rio de Janeiro | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
bighead111
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posted 03-17-2000 11:08 AM     Profile for bighead111   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well Spoty, call me sentimental or whatever you'd like to. The thing is that the wars are made or created by the politicians for their own agenda. For example, in Kosovo, KLA wanted international community to pay attention to them for getting rid of Serbs, so it deliberately made trouble with Serbs, e.g. to ambush the patrol or even to kill the Serb civilians. They knew Serbs would retaliate, and it would be heavy casualty on Albanian, but that was they wanted it, cos it would draw attention from the outside. Stupidly, Serbs took the bait, well, perhaps there wasn't any way around. GEEZ, I just hate this kind of double standard. You call Serbs murderers or war criminals when they killed Albanian, but when Serbs were killed by KLA or Nato bombs, what did you call it?? the war of casualty!!?? What a f!cking crap!! What a hypocoristic nonsense !!!

What's the diffrence between Serbs trying to keep KOSOVO and Russian to Chechnya?? Where the hell was NATO *super air power* when Russian were killing the Chechen civillans, didn't even fart!!

[This message has been edited by bighead111 (edited 03-17-2000).]


Posts: 299 | From: london | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged

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