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Author Topic: F-15 Fuel Dump
Basher
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posted 02-25-2000 05:48 PM     Profile for Basher   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have two questions.

1. Is there any way to dump internal fuel from F-15?

2. Does anyone know the maximum allowable weight limit for a safe landing?

Basher


Posts: 22 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Erich Schneider
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posted 02-25-2000 06:37 PM     Profile for Erich Schneider   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
1) I don't think so.

2) Check the README file for v1.17, it has a chart showing max sink rate vs. weight. As a rule of thumb, though, you shouldn't crash if your sink rate is 400 ft/min or less.


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Basher
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posted 02-26-2000 07:53 AM     Profile for Basher   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks!

Basher


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Jason
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posted 02-26-2000 11:18 AM     Profile for Jason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Erich....
that explains why i keep blowing up when i touch down..........should the F-15 skid or break it's gear.......not just blow up the second it touches down

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LeadHead
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posted 02-26-2000 12:45 PM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hmm, I've come to recognize F15 as a more difficult to land sim than Falcon 4.0 but still, do you blow up at every landing???

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Posts: 775 | From: PiteŚ, Norrbotten, Sweden. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jason
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posted 02-26-2000 01:14 PM     Profile for Jason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
i've gotten to the point where i can land 75% of the time........i don't really sim as much as i should. I can't figure out the ILS system in F-15.....i try to use it and i auctally do better without it. So, if F-15 is a harder sim to land.......i need to get F4........can you explain the ILS in F-15??
Also, can anyone land F-15 without the HUD......i did it for the first time today.

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Lucky_1
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posted 02-26-2000 08:04 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I used to have the same problems you guys had, blowing up on landings.

But, I got a chart from someone here on the correct sinkrate for the aircraft weight and it works wonders!

It's all in what your FPM descent rate is. I landed at maximum once with the chart.

For practice though, fly a mission with no weapons and half a gas can. It's much easier that way. Then as you get better, add weight.

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Two beers, or not two beers. There is no question.


Posts: 635 | From: Knoxville, TN. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bogey
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posted 02-27-2000 06:20 AM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I haven't blown up yet in F-15 trying to land, except for a few times when I tested what would happen.
I never use ILS, I just fly using visual references.
Whenever I try to follow ILS, I overcorrect all the time and usually end up to the side of the runway...

In case you didn't know, there's something called flaring.
You can pretty much dive towards the runway if you know how to flare properly.
I usually land in F-15 descending less than 50ft/min.
Keep your eye on the radar altimeter counting down, and mentally calculate when it will reach zero. a second before this, you pull up the nose until you've almost stopped descending and just glide down.
I think it's real easy!

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Pushing the edge of the envelope...


Posts: 339 | From: West coast of Sweden | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lucky_1
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posted 02-27-2000 08:49 AM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
There's one problem with your method Bogey. Most times if you follow the NAV computer and follow the waypoints, it will put you about 2000ft high and less than a mile away from the runway.

Do the math, 50ft FPM is hardly efficient because you would overshoot the tarmac. I am guessing that you are making your own approach, in that case your method of flaring would work perfectly. It is basically the same method I use but you have to descend at that rate all the time.

If you plane is light, say 35000lbs(gross), then you can land at 900fpm.

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Two beers, or not two beers. There is no question.


Posts: 635 | From: Knoxville, TN. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Envelope
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posted 02-27-2000 12:27 PM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm with Bogey here, I don't use the ILS in Jane's F-15. But I think sink rate is over emphasized in the case of the heavily loaded F-15 which Basher correctly suspects of screwing up his landings. It's a persistant problem for people who buy F-15 (me too) that the training landing is just about impossible as it is set up. They have the plane setup with a "standard" load out which includes just about everything you can cram on it, including iron bombs. No one likes to land an airplane that heavily loaded. Even if you get the sink rate right, you still have to watch your airspeed and even then the landing may not be able to take it if you don't flare just right. It's a lot of stress for the landing gear to have that much weight even just sitting on the ramp.

But really, you should be able to land without the ILS. I take airspeed to be more important than sink rate on approach unless you are really sinking too fast and then airspeed may not save you, especially if you are flying too slow. In the Falcon 4.0 manual they offer another helpful clue: the Velocity Vector. Just adjust things during your flare so that the VV is pasted on the other end of the runway and you should touch down OK. Naturally, before you flare the VV is on beginning of the runway for your approach. This seems to work even for the "standard" loadout every time.


Posts: 2057 | From: Davis, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
LeadHead
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posted 02-27-2000 03:10 PM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
This is how I'd do it:

First, if you did extend the flaps. - Forget them and retract them again. I have yet to make a successful landning in F-15 with those damn wanna-be airbrakes down...

Now, assuming that you are lined up correctly with the runway, while keeping the aircraft level or possibly with a slight nose-up, drop the velocity vector (from now on referred to as "VV", looking like this in the HUD: -o-) and thus your flight direction at a point well ahead of the runway. At this point I'm usually "pumping" the throttle up and down to drop a little, fly towards the runway a little then drop again and so on...

As you loose altitude (I don't know the figures, you have to get your own feel for this) and get closer to the runway treshold, so should the average point where your VV is. That is, the closer to the runway you are and the lower you are, the closer to the runway the VV should be. Then, as you get closer to the treshold, let the velocity vector gently slip up on the runway, wait for what any normal pilot would believe to be his final impact and then pull gently back on the stick.

Using this method I usually put the aircraft down right at the yellow/black marking or slightly behind it.

The main point is that you are to fly *A LOT* lower than how the ILS would guide you.

My general rule of thumb is that the ILS is *always* wrong. :-)

Now, I bet some people on this forum would say that this is the weirdest thing they've ever heard of but I'll state, without hesitation that this method which I developed in DI's F-16 Fighting Falcon is what I'm using in, DI's F-16 (of course), F-15 and Falcon 4.0. - It works...
I can hardly remember a single collapsed UC in Falcon 4.0 except when I've been without HUD (my worst nightmare...).

This is why I hate the Flanker series, because every damn landing is like doing an F4 emergency landing without the velocity vector in the HUD.

Frankly, I don't have a clue as to what speed or rate of descent I'm landing at as the rate of descent- and speed-indicators are the last things I look at during the final stages of a landing approach. IMO, those are the two virtual widow makers...

[This message has been edited by LeadHead (edited 02-27-2000).]


Posts: 775 | From: PiteŚ, Norrbotten, Sweden. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Envelope
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posted 02-27-2000 03:54 PM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
LeadHead has a good idea. The idea he explains illustrates the fact that if you want to touch down exactly on the end of the runway you have to start your flare out before the end of the runway. To do this, you have to aim that velocity vector at that same place. Just make sure that you judge right or you will land off the tarmac and the F-15 is no soft field lander, I am sure.

Here's a trick from flying light planes that applies here too, given the right forward visibility. When you make your approach and want to judge whether your glide path is going to make the end of the runway or whatever spot you have chosen, do this: Look at the end of the runway as a point in your general field of view. If it looks like it is rising then you will land short of that spot. If the spot is falling, then you will land past it.

You can try this anywhere. As you are walking towards some point at waist level, say, as you get closer without lowering your head, the point will look like it is falling in your field of view. If you lower your head too fast as you walk towards it, it will appear to rise. And, if you lower your head to meet the spot, it will appear fixed in your field of view.

In the same spirit of this eye-balling it, you can judge your glide path angle by how far down the spot appears from the horizon. For 1G wing loading and wings level you can use similar cues from the position of the cockpit dash edge on the horizon to approximate AOA and pitch for a given glide path. This might be worth a try when you are bringing in a crippled plane with no HUD. Those F-15s are expensive you know.


Posts: 2057 | From: Davis, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jason
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posted 02-27-2000 05:51 PM     Profile for Jason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
guys,
if you loose the HUD and still have your MFDs.............pull up your Artifical Horizon and anything else you think that will help...i usually use my engine information. If you loose it all.....then i wish you the best of luck

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Bogey
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posted 02-28-2000 07:37 AM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've done several landings in JF-15 without HUD or other such things, just watch the sinkrate and "feel" where you're headed...

I didn't mean that I do a 50ft/min descent all the way, but my touchdown after flaring occurs at that speed.

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Pushing the edge of the envelope...


Posts: 339 | From: West coast of Sweden | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jason
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posted 02-28-2000 01:28 PM     Profile for Jason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
hey,
if your rate of descent is between 800 and 1000 and you flare too soon.....won't you totally messup the landing becasue it will take too much recovery action and you might as well set up for a better run 2 miles out??....also......can the F-15 in the sim break it's gear on landing.not just blow up?

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don't listen to the bitchin' betty


Posts: 220 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Envelope
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posted 02-28-2000 03:01 PM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jason, when I was first trying to land Jane's F-15, for a while the best I could was to collapse the landing gear and bring the thing to a halt that way. If I happened to have something armed, it would go off and I'd leave a hole in the ground. (This is an argument for always using the ILS for landing.) Besides coming in with some weapon armed, I'm not always sure what caused an explosion. I think coming in too fast and at too fast a sink rate is fatal. It's pointless to worry about exactly what permutation will induce what kind of disaster when there are so many ways to get it right.

If you add power and watch that velocity vector you might be able to recover from a bad sink rate, but in the real world going around is sure to be the better idea. It depends on how you want to treat the simulation. I do things in the simulator that I would never do in real life, even given the oppurtunity.


Posts: 2057 | From: Davis, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
LeadHead
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posted 02-29-2000 10:36 AM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
basically, as long as you keep stick usage to a minimum you'll be ok. That is, do not try to counter a high sink-rate with pulling back on the stick but rather by adding more power, a lot of power if needed...

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Lead-Head's Simulation Site:
http://fly.to/lead-head


Posts: 775 | From: PiteŚ, Norrbotten, Sweden. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jason
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posted 02-29-2000 01:26 PM     Profile for Jason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
envelope,
i agree with your statement about doing somethings in a sim that you would never do in real life.......i pull 12.2 g turns for like 5 to 6 seconds all the time.....a lot of times during the missions....anyone who could survive that in real life......i would like to buy him a drink when i am old enough

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_________________________
don't listen to the bitchin' betty


Posts: 220 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bogey
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posted 03-01-2000 07:39 AM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I wish there was a way to record a trackfile like in Flanker2, then I could show you...

I don't use the ILS simply because I'm not that good.
I don't have the ability to keep it straight like that.
If I watch the ground and runway, I can see tendencies, but the ILS is too slow to show this, and this makes me overcorrect constantly.
Flying visually is MUCH easier!!!

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Pushing the edge of the envelope...


Posts: 339 | From: West coast of Sweden | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
beresford
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posted 03-02-2000 11:51 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
JF15 V1.7F
I had a frustrating time blowing up on landing after playing F4 & Mig Alley. One difference is that the nose doesn't drop in the same way if you release stick pressure. On missions the waypoints seem to close to the runway to set up a proper landing. My advice is:
a) Read the manual, ignore the tutorial.
b) Use the ILS to get your approach right (ie get SOME sort of cross with the needles).
c) near the runway concentrate on lining up the velocity vector.
d) Over the runway reduce throttle & concentrate on recommended AOA.

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