my profile | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
»  COMBATSIM.COM Forum Archive   » Game Discussions (Genre)   » Jets   » Future of PC sims? There is no future?

   
Author Topic: Future of PC sims? There is no future?
Worried
unregistered

posted 01-26-2000 12:20 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've been reading alot about the future of PC sims, it seems that alot of companys are pulling out of the business all together?
And with such long dev times and little return could it be that we will be starved of high quality sims in the future? Its all great to speculate "oh a sim based on the Tornado or A10" but the market just is'nt big enough to justify nowdays, sales being low and all that..so if you look a few years down the road Im begining to see a big black hole of nothing for us hard core simmers. I imagine Novalogic will still do pretty well with the arcade stuff though? Opinions?

IP: Logged
.
unregistered

posted 01-26-2000 12:53 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If they won't be making them for proffit, they will be making them for fun,...or for advert.
But if I was in power , I would just show few examples of VERY well made home made cockpit, on TV. The person in it has to do all of the "wow"'s, and it would grab the attention. It's an old trick, but it works. They always advertise MSFS, everywhere, and people buy it, alot.

IP: Logged
Vaisroi
Member
Member # 2319

posted 01-26-2000 01:23 PM     Profile for Vaisroi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Worried,
I think you're dead right. Sad but true. Visit the Flanker2 forum and there's news from the developer that is pretty grim reading. Lot's of rumors about Jane's and maybe LG getting out of the sim business too :O( Well, we'll see later on this year how things turn out. Fingers crossed, Vaisroi.

Posts: 29 | From: Taiwan | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Gun
unregistered

posted 01-26-2000 01:34 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If they made sims that we wanted they would
not need to worry about profit.
Take microprose for example. they asked us what sim we wanted next and then commited to a f-15 project for the next add on.
not that f-15 is not welcome but what's the
point?
If you you give the people what the want they will buy it... and you will profit...
Plain and simple

IP: Logged
JT
Member
Member # 310

posted 01-26-2000 04:55 PM     Profile for JT     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don't worry about it. If anything, they just need to streamline their products and work smarter. Sims are in trouble because of poorly managed companies.
The supply/demand principle will keep sims alive forever. Eventhough a bunch of companies may decide they don't want to make sims anymore, the market, which is a well carved niche with a substantial amount of money, is still out there. Others will want to rush in and be the first to take advantage of that abandoned market. If anything, this recent downward spiral in sim making is good for the industry and will benefit the user in the end.

Posts: 200 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Worried
unregistered

posted 01-27-2000 12:45 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I dont know, in general PC sales are way below console, with the exception of a few games (like Half Life) most games would be lucky to do 500,000? I would imagine a sim is far below that? I work for a game company(not a sim maker) and we're switching to PSX2 products only after our next game ships, as the sales for console games are very good in comparison. So is the trend in the future going to be more console based? Especially since they are getting up to PC standards in quality of graphics (although without HDTV its only 640x480 ick!) But of course are less complex in their nature, we would see arcady
sim products on these machines.
Seems to me that the market is really changing and I have doubts that its going to be attractive to sim developers, but I HOPE Im wrong..!

IP: Logged
DaleReeck
Member
Member # 1021

posted 01-27-2000 07:20 AM     Profile for DaleReeck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Only the biggest companies, companies that can produce arcade titles to offset hard core sim losses, will produce hard core sims. So, I don't see hard core sims dying, just a lot fewer in number. The small upstart, like GSC with their Hornet series, may be a thing of the past.


Posts: 327 | From: Cheektowaga NY USA | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Seawolf
Member
Member # 1787

posted 01-29-2000 02:48 PM     Profile for Seawolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Think about the best selling sim out there right now. MSFS series. It got so popular because it was a open ended set up. Programmers could create different aircraft, scenery, etc and give it away free on the internet. The sim by itself really isn't that great, but when you tell someone they can add a F14 and fly all over the world then people will love it.
Combat Flight Simulator is the same way.
Any given night on the Multiplayer site called the Zone you will find the CFS rooms packed with people even after a year of being on the shelf.
Microprose really had something going IMO and Mattel made the biggest mistake ever by canning the whole thing.
Both EAW, Falcon 4.0 are what I consider to be 2 of the best sims out right now, IMO.

Posts: 1322 | From: Clearwater, Fl. USA | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
mbaxter
Member
Member # 191

posted 01-30-2000 06:41 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Flightsims are in trouble simply because developers are spending all their effort in catering to the ultra-hardcore crowd, trying to get all the little nit-picking details right with systems modeling and such, while neglecting the most important parts of the game, namely, the AI, fun factor, replayability, and stability.

It never ceases to amaze me how they can model the avionics down to almost every detail and then have wingmen that are a dumb as toast, a sim that crashes all the time, a screwed up campaign engine, etc. I have seen this sort of thing time and again.

Flightsim developers have noone but themselves to blame for their hard times. They need to get their priorities straight.


Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bigshot
Member
Member # 4

posted 01-30-2000 07:12 PM     Profile for Bigshot   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I agree with you mbaxter. Give me a sim with good graphics, good flight model, good AI and a good dynamic campaign so I won't get bored. Make sure the damn thing is stable and will run on my PII 450 with a decent frame rate and I'll be happy. Who gives a crap if all I gotta do is push one key stroke to fire missles or guns. I don't need all that so called realistic avionics crap. In falcon4, I just hit the "d" key for sidewinders and the "m" key for aramms and I pull the trigger for the cannons. The rest of the stuff is wasted as far as I'm concerned. Better yet, forget the jet engines and just give me a good old fashioned prop. I say forget the "hardcore demands". If they want to replicate exactly what's it's like to fly an FA18, they can join the navy. It cannot be done on a computer game. At least not with the current technology. Jane's has proven that and wasted a lot of their money in even attempting it. All I expected this year was new sims as good as last year. That ain't happening.
Posts: 1291 | From: Suttons Bay, MI, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
rrevved
Member
Member # 1762

posted 01-31-2000 04:18 AM     Profile for rrevved   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
>I don't need all that so called realistic
>avionics crap. In falcon4, I just hit
>the "d" key for sidewinders and the "m" key
>for aramms and I pull the trigger for the
>cannons. The rest of the stuff is wasted as
>far as I'm concerned.

Uhhh. do you ever try to lock up the bandits
or do you mash the trigger and hope your
missiles will hit them?

Is that why they call you 'Big Shot'?

LOL!!


Posts: 92 | From: | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
BoneDome
Member
Member # 190

posted 01-31-2000 05:12 AM     Profile for BoneDome   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Only the biggest companies, companies that can produce arcade titles to offset hard core sim losses, will produce hard core sims."

The evidence is against this theory. With the sacking of the F4 team and the rumours about Janes quitting the hardcore business, I suspect that the big companies look at flight-sims (especially hardcore ones) as a low profit area. The reason those companies got so big and successful in the first place is because the made products that were very profitable.

"It never ceases to amaze me how they can model the avionics down to almost every detail and then have wingmen that are a dumb as toast, a sim that crashes all the time, a screwed up campaign engine, etc. I have seen this sort of thing time and again."

Well, I think avionics are easier to simulate than human intelligence. One of the pre-requisits of hardcore sims is that they faithfully reproduce the aircraft, and avionics are a big part of that. A really good AI or dynamic campaign would require a much more sophisticated computer than we have at the moment (just look at the performance issues with F4, and the campaign isn't really that great).
Bottom line, I don't think you'll ever get what you're asking for, because you want something that has a better campaign, better AI, and is more stable. F4 took 5 years to create, so how long do you think it would take to create what you're asking for?

"forget the jet engines and just give me a good old fashioned prop. I say forget the "hardcore demands""

I suggest you go fly EAW. Sorry, but I like the hardcore sims, and I hope someone continues to produce them.
If, by saying "All I expected this year was new sims as good as last year" you mean you want something that does everything better than F4, you'll probably have to wait a few years for that because it'll take a long time for anyone to write something that complex, but without the problems.

I think the biggest problem with sims at the moment, is that we have such unrealistic expectations. Some people are always asking for a completely integrated air/ground/sea war. GET REAL! Imagine how your system would perform if it was running F4 and Hidden & dangerous or Delta Force 2 AT THE SAME TIME!

I think we need to re-assess what we truely believe is possible with the hardware limitations we have. Perhaps then we'll finally learn to be happy with what developers can produce, rather than always asking for more.


Posts: 171 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
LeadHead
Member
Member # 184

posted 01-31-2000 07:06 AM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"It never ceases to amaze me how they can model the avionics down to almost every detail and then have wingmen that are a dumb as toast, a sim that crashes all the time, a screwed up campaign engine, etc. I have seen this sort of thing time and again".


What sim is that? Personally I don't know a single sim with really bad AI, screwed up campaign engine and repeated CTD:s...

Not even F4 which works all fine for me with 1.08i... The only major bug I suffer from is that it will CTD if I ask the wingman to attack a ground target while on BDA mission. Or at least when on BDA's "retasked" to attack other targets...

------------------
Lead-Head's Simulation Site:
http://fly.to/lead-head


Posts: 775 | From: PiteŚ, Norrbotten, Sweden. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
TroyAir
Member
Member # 922

posted 01-31-2000 08:59 AM     Profile for TroyAir   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually, I think you're going to see a market correction, much like the "market corrections" of the stock market. These past 2 years have seen a lot of flight sims come to store shelves, saturating the flight sim community. To release a new sim right now would not be cost-effective, as it would be competing with the "Falcon", "Flanker", "European Air War", "Air Warrior", "MS Flight Simulator" and, heck, even the "Jane's Fighters Anthology" and "EF2000" community, all of which are pretty firmly entrenched.

I predict that what's going to happen is that some of the bigger companies will get out the flight sim business for a year or two, to allow the other titles to run their course, and then release a new sim or two that offer bigger and better toys ("Better Graphics!" "Better Flight Model!" "Better Avionics!").

So what are the production houses going to turn to for profits? Look for the action/mystery genre to explode this Summer. I've already noticed a couple of games modeled after the hit movie "Blair Witch Project". I think its success will breed competition in the PC games sector.

I think the real advances in PC flight sims will be made by online companies drawing "pilots" over the Internet. Online flying is the future of flight sims.

Troy


Posts: 78 | From: Tampa, Florida, USA | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
mbaxter
Member
Member # 191

posted 01-31-2000 01:51 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
BoneDome - you're totally wrong. USNF, and it follow ons, all had much better AI than ANY sim made since then, including F4. It's not a matter of CPU cycles - just bad design.

Like I said, if developers would stop catering to the ultra-hardcore crowd and just try to make a good sim with a good dynamic campaign, they'd be turning out good games, which, by the way, would be playable by a much larger segment of the population. This, I predict, is what will eventually start to happen.


Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
RamrodSix
Member
Member # 2673

posted 02-01-2000 01:12 PM     Profile for RamrodSix   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
BoneDome- some good points to ponder. The other half of the profitability equation (after volume of sales) is price.

I'd be willing to pay $70-$85 for a stable cbt sim that incorporated reasonable detail, great graphics, and campaign options. What's the community's concensus?


Posts: 2 | From: | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged

All times are MST (US)  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | COMBATSIM.COM Home

© COMBATSIM.COM, INC. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin Board 6.04b

Sponsor
© 2014 COMBATSIM.COM - All Rights Reserved