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Author Topic: What is your opinion? Who's the best dogfighter? No missiles. Just guns.
Viperf16
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posted 01-14-2000 07:28 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Who's the best dogfighter?
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Scout
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posted 01-14-2000 08:00 PM     Profile for Scout   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That will be Bullterrier, no missiles, just GUMS

or maybe like this...

That will be Bruce Willis. I don't think he ever used missiles, just guns.

And to piss you off completely - Su-27 Flanker-B.

Cheers,
Scout


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Major Tom
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posted 01-14-2000 08:04 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
F8 Crusader. 4 20mm cannons, no waiting
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Johnny
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posted 01-14-2000 10:10 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Su-37, S-37 it will kick *** . Even high tech f22 *** :]
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Johnny
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posted 01-14-2000 10:13 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Su-37, S-37 it will kick a$$ . Even high tech f22 a$$ :]
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Johnny
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posted 01-14-2000 10:15 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
And doesn't it pi$$e$ you off?
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$$$$$
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posted 01-14-2000 11:00 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
No $ir it doe$ not. Why am I using "$"'s in$tead of "s"'s? I am retarded.
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Mano
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posted 01-14-2000 11:06 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
One werd.

X-31 EFM

Or if you want a plane that will actually enter service...

EFA Typhoon

Runners Up:
Rafale
Gripen
F-22
JSF
Airbus A340
Sikorsky S-61


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Bogey
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posted 01-15-2000 06:23 AM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don't forget the Hindenburg!
It pulls 0.1 G's with G-limiter off...

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Pushing the edge of the envelope...


Posts: 339 | From: West coast of Sweden | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
momma
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posted 01-15-2000 09:18 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
screw the hindenburg. The Aero Spacelines Superguppy could is a far better choice, max speed 287mph at 20,000 baby

pilots always get a little wild with the guppy, one pilot almost tore its wings off doing a hard .025g turn.


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Mano
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posted 01-15-2000 09:21 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The X-29 and X-31 EFM really should be put into service...

The S-37 reminds me of an X-29...


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Major Tom
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posted 01-15-2000 12:16 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Better yet...the space shuttle. No matter which configuration you're in, you always overshoot in a dogfight
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Radman
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posted 01-15-2000 01:15 PM     Profile for Radman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My votes...

Best pure in-service dogfighter:
Sea Harrier FRS.2

Best experimental dogfighter:
Yak-141 Freestyle

Best in-service fixed wing dogfighter:
Su-35 Flanker

The future is undecided, but possible future prospects include:

S-37
Joint Strike Fighter
F-22
Possible future Chinese or Israeli aircraft


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Spectre
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posted 01-15-2000 03:22 PM     Profile for Spectre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Best 'dogfighter'...probably my cat

Best aircraft for a 1v1 gunzo scenario...depends on the pilot (has been said a million times before...but people don't get it).

The bloke that can manage his energy well and knows his weaknesses and strengths, i.e., of the aircraft that he/she is flying will come out on top.


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JT
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posted 01-15-2000 04:06 PM     Profile for JT     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
American aircraft: high-tech and "smart", but difficult to maintain and relatively fragile

Soviet aircraft: Rugged and easy to maintain, but relatively low-tech

Which do you think is the best approach to building war machines in this day and age?


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.
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posted 01-15-2000 05:24 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"...Russian technology...American technology...- EVERYTHING MADE IN TAIWAN!!!"

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Radman
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posted 01-15-2000 08:28 PM     Profile for Radman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jt said...

"American aircraft: high-tech and "smart", but difficult to maintain and relatively fragile
Soviet aircraft: Rugged and easy to maintain, but relatively low-tech

Which do you think is the best approach to building war machines in this day and age?"

Realistically...

Depends on what your state your country is in. If you are facing minor scirmishes or your combat experience for the last ten years and future focuses on having tons of more training hours than combat flying, then you build using Western technology (ie US, Britain, French). You don't have to replace the engines as often and you can afford to maintian long logistics lines if only for a short time during a brief conflict.

If you are getting ready to go to full scale war or are on constant alert for one, you go for Russian technology. This senerio has more combat hours than training hours. Logistics lines can be maintianed for a longer period and aircraft costs less to replace when they are damaged or destroyed.

In the 1980s...

You were on either Nato or Russia's side. There was little in between except in countries that were dubbed "disputed areas" (Iran, Jordan) like in the middle east. This was mainly due to politics rather than choice.

In the 1990s and beyond...

Many countries now have choices and are flooded by marketers.

Entry into Nato demands Western technology for logistics simplification. I remember Poland buying F-16s just so it could enter into Nato because Nato demanded certain military standards for technology, organization, command, and tactics.

Others have decided to upgrade their old stuff to newer standards (African countries mainly).

Others fell victim to "desertstormiatis". Seeing the pictures of laser-guided bombs and cruise missiles destroy the iraqi army they suddenly demand that they have the same equipment or at least suppliment thier air force with it (middle eastern countries mainly).

Yet others have found it cheaper to start thier own programs (China and Israel).

Others are buying outright, and some are even taking existing airframes and adding thier own avionics (Japan).


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Aaron
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posted 01-16-2000 01:03 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well it is the pilot not the plane, that was definitely proved by almost a century of air war. Still some planes are built to be dogfighters and some aren't.
I think the Mig-29 may be the best dogfighting plane right now. Powerful guns, agility, speed, thrust to weight.
Based on spec's the EF2K Typhoon may be the best conventional dogfighter ever built followed closely by the Rafale. If the F-22 can do what it was designed to do, then it will definitely have a manuverabilty advantage over any other plane.
But seriously will we ever see guns only dogfights like WWI, WWII or Korea ever again?

Just my $.02 worth


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shok
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posted 01-16-2000 06:16 PM     Profile for shok   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Who's the best dogfighter?

Maverick, of course. Pure instinct. He has no need for all that textbook crap like Iceman uses.

Even the Blonde Knight has nothing on Maverick (but only because BK is not a pure dogfighter).


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Jason
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posted 01-17-2000 10:01 AM     Profile for Jason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Red Baron Baby, that's all i got to say. oh and ., it's "American Componants, Russian Componants, ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!"

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don't listen to the bitchin' betty


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Slickster
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posted 01-17-2000 02:28 PM     Profile for Slickster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Werner Voss.

US planes difficult to maintain? Not going by inservice rates they're not.
Rugged? Check out the photo of the F-15 coming back sans wing. Really, some of these generalizations just do NOT stand up to scrutiny.

Making a pure dogfighting plane in todays world is foolish. Last guns kill? (Outside of the A-10's in the Gulf)
Sometime in the last Arab-Israeli war, I think.
Read some of the latest skinny coming out about the MiG-29, getting outturned by the FA-18. More power, but several degrees per second behind in turn rate.

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Rick "Slick" Land


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Spectre
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posted 01-17-2000 02:57 PM     Profile for Spectre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I came across a quote (can't remember by whom but it was a fighter jock) and it went something like this:

quote:
If you have to go in close and fight it out with guns...then your training was wasted and you've done something VERY wrong

I just find it interesting that pilots spend many a tax payers $$$ burning JP in close in mutli-bogey engagements...I wonder why...?


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Baracuda
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posted 01-17-2000 03:19 PM     Profile for Baracuda   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Baron Von Richthoven (German)KIA WWI
Eddie Richenbacher (US) WWI
Billy Mitchell (CND) WWI
Bob Hoover (Flying Tigers & USAAF) Ret China & Pacific WWII
Major Jabara (USAF)Ret Korea
Cunningham (USAF) Ret Vietnam

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LeadHead
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posted 01-17-2000 03:28 PM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm biased but my vote goes for the JAS-39 Gripen if we're talking current conventional fighters (That is, no Harrier, space-shuttle or "Pregnant Guppy").

It's small and manoeuverable like nothing else I've seen, powerful engine and best of all:
A 30mm Oerlikon Cannon...


PS. Vulcan sux... DS.


;-)


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goanna
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posted 01-17-2000 04:34 PM     Profile for goanna   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I thought that the question was who's, as in who is, the best guns only dogfigther? I believe that the answer is one of two Brits, Sir Douglas Barder or Grp Capt Johnny Johnsen.
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TroyAir
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posted 01-18-2000 11:35 AM     Profile for TroyAir   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Best dogfighter? The U.S.S. Missouri. Tie would go to the U.S.S. Alabama. Either one will do. They got the range, the armor, the rate of fire, what more do you need? Ever see a Falcon sink Genuine American Steel in a guns-only fight? I didn't think so
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Slickster
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posted 01-19-2000 01:23 PM     Profile for Slickster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Best Guy? Again, Werner Voss. At least in WW2. Richtofen was one of those "out of the sun" guys. He did do his share of dogfighting, though.
WW2. Why pick two Brits? Any bias there? Although, being in Spits, yank and bank was probably their style. Lets not forget Japan and those killer turn and burn machines of theirs. And how 'bout Saburo Sakai? All who saw him felt he was tops.
Jets? Gotta be Maverick. I mean, he waxed 4 MiG's close in protecting his carrier, right? And he got Jester.

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Rick "Slick" Land


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tony draper
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posted 01-19-2000 03:01 PM     Profile for tony draper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
hey we are all simmers here so why dont some of you people try it out ,load microsoft combat sim load your paticular choice and go at it ,you can download virtualy every aircrat that ever existed and some that dont yet, naboo fighter,hey leadhead even the grippen.to be truthful i dont know if you can do this in multiplayer, but i have flown some modern kit against spits , mustangs ect and it is hard to get gun kill on them in modern jets, my favorite is ba hawk.flying luftwaffer phantom 2x speed low level in the interlaken area is magic a much underated sim i think.. tony d
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goanna
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posted 01-19-2000 03:04 PM     Profile for goanna   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello Slickster, why the to Brits? read about them and find out. Sir Douglas Barder had NO LEGS. Both lost in a crash before the war. BTW why the bias? there is none, I'm not a pom.
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tony draper
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posted 01-19-2000 03:16 PM     Profile for tony draper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
hey goanna , you ever read anything about bader as a fighter pilot he was he thought up some good tactics but i dont think he was considered an ace , also if you read some of the stuff that has come out since his death as a human being the man was an total *ss hole tony d
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LeadHead
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posted 01-22-2000 04:25 PM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Arrgghhhh...

Sorry for my grave miss...

The SAAB-39 doesn't have the 30mm Oerlikon gun, it has a 27mm Mauser BK27.

However, it's predecessor, the SAAB-37 Viggen has one of those Oerlikon 30mm guns...


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airacear
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posted 01-23-2000 01:37 PM     Profile for airacear   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As soon as the SU-37 comes out, it will be the best dog-fighter (most manuverable) around with its thrust vectoring (3-D) and powerful engines.. not like it matters since the F-22 will destroy it before the lower tech SU can even see it. even so, the F-22 does have thrust vectoring (2-D), very powerful engines, and its really the pilot that makes the difference in the end. Theres no beating the 22
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Bloojay
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posted 01-23-2000 04:31 PM     Profile for Bloojay   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
F-15C hands down. Particularly ones in the 71st TFW, Langley AFB Virginia.
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Flyer88
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posted 01-23-2000 05:28 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It's a toss up.
AC-130 if you start with the bandit just off your left wing and a little low.
A-10 if you start with the bandit 12-o'clock level or parked on the runway.


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Bogey
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posted 01-24-2000 06:02 AM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Leadhead,

It should've though!!!

------------------
Pushing the edge of the envelope...


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Slickster
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posted 01-24-2000 02:07 PM     Profile for Slickster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well jeez, Goanna. No bias on my part. I'm an Arkansawyer, from the good old USA, and picked a German in WW1 and a Japanese in WW2, and a fake guy in jets. If I was biased I'd pick Roal Luffberry, Don Gentile, and "Mack" McConnell.
I got nothing against the Brits, and even gave a caveat with yank and bank. Albert Ball and Rhys Davis were probably great dogfighters in WW1, with Pattle and Johnson in WW2.
Bader might have been a jerk, but the Guy couldn't be kept down. A true fighting spirit there.

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Rick "Slick" Land


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Raptor
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posted 01-25-2000 12:31 AM     Profile for Raptor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The FAT Mothership in Independence Day. Totals everything!!!

But on the serious side, I'd say the F-16C. It's probably the only one that's combat proven.


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LeadHead
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posted 01-25-2000 11:44 AM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Leadhead,
It should've though!!!

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Pushing the edge of the envelope..."

???

You mean the Gripen _should_ have an Oerlikon or what?

------------------
Lead-Head's Simulation Site:
http://fly.to/lead-head


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Cookie
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posted 01-29-2000 01:33 PM     Profile for Cookie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Naw, Mauser all the way, baby!!!!
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Jason
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posted 01-29-2000 03:45 PM     Profile for Jason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey,
How about those little alien fighters in ID4, Raptor.

This is for real, I think the Harrier would be the best guns only fighter, especially the ones the Marines use with the 30 mm(i think it's 30, it could be 27) Because you can throw on the V/STOL vectors and kill a plane that is right behind you!!!

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_________________________
don't listen to the bitchin' betty


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