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Author Topic: hitler
cid
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posted 01-12-2000 02:35 PM     Profile for cid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
this is a theory derived from something said in the outrage post. Imagine for a second that hitler had not started WWII in the 1940's. The german scientists who helped build the atomic bomb would not have defected to the US, and germany would likely have ended up with nuclear capability FIRST. Meaning, had hitler waited, the world would have seen a NUCLEAR nazi germany. They would have nuked england first, and then captured continental europe manually. However, that leaves Japan as a wildcard. Would japan still have began their aggression even without germany?
Posts: 87 | From: jellico TN | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
tony draper
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posted 01-12-2000 02:54 PM     Profile for tony draper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
seems unlikely cid from what i have read they had not realy made much progress even by 1945 i do not think they had managed to attain criticality and without the war it is doubtful if hitler would have alowed research into what he reguarded as a jewish science ,i remmember a documentry where they bugged a room full of german nuclear scientists 1n 1945 when they heard about the big one on hiroshima they just did not believe it. it is interesting to extrapolate events and what might have been if this or that had,nt happened ,i often wonder how the history of europe would have been if napoleon had not been defeated at waterloo .. stay lucky tony d
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JA
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posted 01-12-2000 03:00 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Perhaps this should be in the "historical" topic, but keep in mind, many of those scientists who developed the US atomic bomb were Jews, leftists, or people otherwise unacceptable to the Third Reich who emigrated from Germany long before the outbreak of war. Nazi Germany's anti-semitism, intolerance for dissent, and distrust of intellectuals (literary and scientific), in addition to more concrete technical and logistical problems, cost them the chance to develop nuclear weapons. It's my opinion that Germany's relationship with Japan was tenuous at best, and that they probably would have attacked the US and Great Britain irrespective of Germany's actions, out of their perceived need to secure SE Asian resources and labor under American, British, and Dutch control. Japan was caught in a vicious circle - "we need to gain control of petroleum reserves to support our empire which exists to secure the resources we need to feed our army and navy in order to conquer resourch-rich areas which we need to support our empire which exists to..." and so forth. My two cent's worth.
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cid
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posted 01-12-2000 03:26 PM     Profile for cid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
well...just supposing hitler had delayed all military(and ethnic cleansing)actions until the 1950's...they would have had those jewish and other undesirable scientists design the bomb...and then they would have gassed them along with all the others...the real question is, did hitler have any interest(or belief) in an atomic bomb...if so, they would surely have developed it...if not, who knows...at any rate, just suppose nazi germany had the bomb first...who would have been hit first, englan or russia? england in my opinion...but then, remember, there were like 20 million russians exterminated...over 3 times the number of jews...
Posts: 87 | From: jellico TN | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
patriotSTORM
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posted 01-12-2000 03:28 PM     Profile for patriotSTORM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think that WW2 was bound to happen - Nazi Germany seemed to be building up for it. Keep in mind that they would have destroyed Britian had not Hitler declared war on Russia, while US would have been left out of it if Japan had not attacked them. Germany was doing a vast amount of research towards nuclear weopons, but Allied efforts made sure that they were unable to get the plutonium (???) they needed - and they had not yet found a way of seperating the metal needed from it's source. I think that WW2 was destined to happen.
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Aaron
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posted 01-12-2000 05:00 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I doubt if Hitler could have held power in Germany until the 50's even with an iron hand. His hold on the people was his promise to restore the German prestige of pre-WWI as well as the restore the economy.


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JimG
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posted 01-12-2000 08:54 PM     Profile for JimG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yep, there is a season for nationalism (which was the driving force behind nazism from the average german's perspective) and it seems unlikely that Germany could have tolerated an extended season of this. Also, remember the US was recovering from a depression and would have been a different adversary for the nazis to consider ~1950 as well as the USSR.
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Rosco
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posted 01-13-2000 01:12 AM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Joe Stalin's Soviet Empire might have well been the main nemesis had Hitler not gone the "wrong" direction and hit them before they were ready. Communism was feared decades before the Cold War by the other Great Powers' and is one of the reasons they let Germany re-arm, to act as a buffer so when the Soviets' invaded, they'd be on German soil. Stalin was a much harder and smarter man than Hitler ever was, and would have done well in the Russian Mafia of today.
Hitler was a misfit who fell in with the National Socialists' Party. Hitler also suffered from the beginnings of { think it was } Parkinson's disease and needed to rush things before Germany was really ready. The Soviets', always moved carefully and conservatively. Hitler caught them before they'd begun to modernize their forces. I think the Red Army would have crushed the Japanese in large scale land battles and even driven the Americans and British off the Continent if it wasn't for Fat Man and Little Boy. Also they were the second country to develope the Bomb, it took France and England {technically comparable to Germany} well into the '50s to do so.

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"Charlie don't care, he'll slit your throat"

[This message has been edited by Rosco (edited 01-13-2000).]


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
TonyH
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posted 01-13-2000 04:46 AM     Profile for TonyH   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
>>...at any rate, just suppose nazi germany had the bomb first...who would have been hit first, englan or russia? england in my opinion...but then, remember, there were like 20 million russians exterminated...over 3 times the number of jews...<<

It's extremely doubtful whether Germany would have had the bomb by the '50s even if WWII had never happened. But say they did. America was still working on her bomb, as well as other countries. So the situation would have remained the same, I think it would have stalemated the world situation just as it was between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R.

Why do you think England would have been hit first? Hitlers original design for war was NEVER about England. The Battle for Britain was an aberation, it was never meant to happen. Hitlers war was about Russia and the bolsiviks. The first attacks from Germany were always going to be in the East. Thats why Czechslovakia and Poland were attacked and occupied first. To be used as jumping ground for the attack on Russia. Hitler did not want war with Britain or France and America wasn't even questioned at all. He was not interested in the West at all. He believed a war to the west would have been hampered by the same problems as WWI. After the Declaration of war from Britain and France plans were drawn up for an attack on France, but these plans were designed along the lines of the Sheiflin (spelling is wrong) plan. These plans were lost when the plane carrying them landed in Belgium. So new plans had to be drawn up. Hienz Guderian, I think, came up with the plan to attack from the low countries through the "impenetrable" Ardennes. This threw France into chaos, as a defence for this attack was never planned for. In fact I believe that if Britain and France had not declared war on Germany on Sept 3rd WWII would have looked very, very different. In the Thirties there was a school of thought that suggested that the rest of Europe should stand by and let Hitler get on with his war in the East and just condemn the war from affar. Its doubtful whether Germany would have won any kind of war against Russia.
Also JA is correct about Japan. The attacks on the U.S. came about because the Japanese were slowly being pushed into a corner. The embargo's of Synthetic oil, Rubber and metals, not to mention food were making the war in China very difficult, this led to Japans desperate attack on the U.S.'s naval capabilities in Pearl Harbour. This attack would have happened seperate of the European war, anyway.

Tony


Posts: 287 | From: Dublin, Ireland | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bogey
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posted 01-13-2000 05:33 AM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Regarding a german A-bomb...

It was found after the war that Germany had grossly miscalculated the critical mass needed for a fission bomb.
They thought they would need nearly two tons of U-235.
I think the US figure was about one 100th of that...

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Pushing the edge of the envelope...


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Envelope
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posted 01-13-2000 10:54 AM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I found this in the paperback edition of A Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" page 304:

"In the summer of 1943, wolframite imports from Portugal were cut off, which created a critical situation for the production of solid-core ammunition. I therupon ordered the use of uranium cores for this type of ammunition. My release of our uranium stocks of about twelve hundred metric tons showed that we no longer had any thought of producing atom bombs."

I originally posted this under a discussion on DU ammunition.


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tony draper
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posted 01-13-2000 01:00 PM     Profile for tony draper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
hi envelope, i think that must be a printing error surely, 12oo tons seems a bit much perhaps u238 although that still seems a lot i dont think there is that much u235 around even today..no dought some one will put us right...tony d
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JT
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posted 01-13-2000 01:14 PM     Profile for JT     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
People,

The cliche "hindsight is 20/20" is really fitting here.... I think the key to this is putting yourselves into the mindset of the American and British military leaders of the time. Whether Hitler was or was not close to producing the bomb is NOT relevant. What is relevant is the fact that no one really knew at that time how close he was or what he really had... that's why he was considered a real threat (well, beyond the fact that he was utterly insane). The American and British leaders probably had a good idea about what the Nazis had, but no one knew for sure... and that's the problem. They simply couldn't risk having this madman, who WAS developing a bomb, going any further.
Don't believe any of that Buchanan garbage about Hitler not being a threat. It's simply not true and simply not relevant.

[This message has been edited by JT (edited 01-13-2000).]


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JT
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posted 01-13-2000 01:16 PM     Profile for JT     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
oops, double post

[This message has been edited by JT (edited 01-13-2000).]


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Blond_Knight
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posted 01-13-2000 02:12 PM     Profile for Blond_Knight     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually Kamerades, I read an interesting book about how since the Germans plan was to sustain the reaction with the heavy water principle, and since they only had one plant capable of producing heavy water( in Norway) that in 43` I think a Brit/Norwegian Commando team demolished the heavy water facilities at the plant, which the Germans were never able to repair, so the impression I got was that they were never close to having a bomb.
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Major Tom
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posted 01-13-2000 06:27 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Speaking of A-bomb's. I've heard a wild theory that a possible reason why we let the Soviets take Berlin is because Hitler may have had a really wierd final revenge scheme. Some of the presidents advisors actually thought that the dictator was planing on letting the opposing army invade the Berlin then detonate some kind of secret hidden A-bomb as a final act of lunacy.

This proved to be untrue, because Berlin is obviously still on the map. But I wouldn't put it past Shitler to do something like that if he had the chance. Thankfully he didn't.

Those damn Razi's caused enough damage with conventional munitions. I'd hate to think what would happen if the had gotten the A-bomb before us.


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Tailspin
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posted 01-13-2000 08:22 PM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think the reference to "wolframite" is uranium ore or yellow-cake. 1200 tons of yellow-cake is not unreasonable. I live near a processing plant where U-238 is extracted from yellow-cake. It arrives by the railcar load. The U-238 is then mixed with Flouric acid yielding Uf6. Uranium hexaflouride is gassified and shipped across the river to a gaseous diffusion plant where U-235 is extracted. Anyway I think Germany was a LONG way from developing the A-bomb. The book The Making of the Atomic Bomb(Rhoades) is a good read if you are interested in what it took to built a bomb. BTW...Plutonium is a by product of nuclear fission and is produced in a reactor. You have to have U-235 before you can get Plutonium.
Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
TonyH
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posted 01-14-2000 07:21 AM     Profile for TonyH   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Blond Knight is right on the button with the destruction of the hardwater plant in Norway in '43 as to the reasons for Germany's lack of a reasonable effort to produce a bomb. After this happened in '43 the nazis never got it together again.

Tony


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Phil47
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posted 01-14-2000 03:57 PM     Profile for Phil47     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actualy if Hitler hadn't frightend or killed off the Jews, he might have won the war.......The Silly bastard got rid of all his best brains....
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Phil47
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posted 01-14-2000 04:03 PM     Profile for Phil47     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry, A few typing errors in that last post..Keep on missing out letters..Still can't be good at everything can we.....S*** What the hell am I good at..:eek
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