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Author Topic: Outrage!
Major Tom
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posted 01-06-2000 12:10 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
>>>>Oh and BTW, Anyone remember the name of the man whose writings greatly INFLUENCED Shitler (I don't want to mention his f*cking name) and turned him into the fanatical fool that he was?

Henry Ford?

Winston Churchil?

Both where big time anti semites and wrote quite a bit about the "jewish world order" scare in the 30's.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Turbo
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posted 01-06-2000 12:50 PM     Profile for Turbo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Nope, it was an Austrian. I don't recall his name, but my point is that the writer could be in for the nomination as well. Heck, even the writers parents could be nominated because if it weren't for them, their son wouldn't have wrote that stuff that inspired that maniac. Or maybe even the Jewish kid that kicked his a$$ when he was young. Who knows? To be honest, I think it's quite a stupid argument.
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Dan.
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posted 01-06-2000 01:41 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Turbo, hello, that would be Nietzsche, a German philosopher, and the book "Also Sprach Zarathustra" or "Thus Spake Zarathustra," written in the late 1800's. Highly recommended reading.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Dan


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Turbo
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posted 01-06-2000 02:03 PM     Profile for Turbo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
No thanks, I'm not into that stuff. I used to listen to Paul Harvey's "...The rest of the story " on the radio and that's where I heard it. He always reported on those facts that are not so popular, but very well true. In time I'll remember the name of that Austrian. I think his first name was Albert (no not Einstein). He was a famous man, some one who you wouldn't dare to suspect.
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Turbo
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posted 01-06-2000 02:05 PM     Profile for Turbo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Anyway, I still nominate Tesla.
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Major Tom
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posted 01-06-2000 05:55 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
ZAP!

he he he

Tesla coils kick *** . I agree, lets make him "man of the whatever this thread was originally about."


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Toecutter
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posted 01-06-2000 11:32 PM     Profile for Toecutter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You know Nick I can`t blame you. I`ve let loose on that one. OTOH tho your perseption of me doesn`t bother me I have to correct you on some of it. No-I`m not a neo-nazi. No I don`t idolize Hitler. I am OTOH human, I can`t avoid to draw certain conclusions, play the odds, thus I probably qualify as a racist-shovinist(chauvinist?)-narrow minded A-hole in the eyes of the main stream. I won`t lose sleep over that one either. There is just one little thing. We are all are so keen on not losing perspective-learnin` from history and never to repeat our mistakes-right? Well don`t forget the forces that created fertile soil for Hitler`s rise to power either `cos we are likely to create the same circumstances. You seem to think that I accredit him with what his excistance brought about...nothing is further from the truth. The fact is that he was a product of his times and nation. His vision(tho I haven`t read Mein Kampf) was probably his(and by the looks of it-Germanys) only solution to shake Versaille`s restrictions and tell you something- I can`t blame him there either...
You know man **** this! I`m sure you read the history books required to graduate(and some)
My only point in this matter is that the mofo had the talent of bringin` out the best and the worst in the human animal and he was at the right place at the right time. He-along with his countryman-turned the world upside down!
You-for instance -still feel the sting to the point of loosing objectivity...a half a century l8r...
I have no guilt- none -for what was done during those years.I was born in 65. I have "tendencies" but I have them well under ctrl. So do you...I hope...I`d never associate with anyone whose life is centered around those dark moments...
My only resentment is that I belong to a species that tends to lower the blinders(to the level of the lowest common denaminator) when it comes to dealing with the ghosts of history...
And that- is a fact!
I apologize for the tone-but not the content.


[This message has been edited by Toecutter (edited 01-06-2000).]


Posts: 1724 | From: States | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Envelope
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posted 01-07-2000 01:14 AM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"The fact is that he was a product of his times and nation. His vision(tho I haven`t read Mein Kampf) was probably his(and by the looks of it-Germanys) only solution to shake Versaille`s restrictions and tell you something- I can`t blame him there either..."

Hitler's problems predate Versaille, he loved WWI and was deeply disappointed when Germany lost. His politics revolved around anti-semitism. I can't imagine that you would agree that part of shaking the Versaille's restriction would be to crush the Weimar republic. This was an attempt to establish democracy free of the monarchy in Germany. Unfortunately, the monarchy still had too much power and so was a weak link in the republic.

Anyway, we keep arguing about Hitler and it shows our own ethnic orientation, I am sure. Hitler influenced the world outside of Europe by war only, this is not a major achievement.

The light bulb is everywhere, I still say Edison.


Posts: 2057 | From: Davis, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
tony draper
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posted 01-07-2000 05:05 AM     Profile for tony draper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
hey envelope, the electric light bulb using carbon filiment was invented by a gentleman in the n.e of england called joseph swan the first house in the world lit by electric light is about half a mile from where i am sitting, i believe he lost court case on patent in usa, i know this is a bit off topic but it always annoys me when i see edison credited with other mens work ,edison was a very clever man and i have admired him for his other work but i think it is time the record was put straight...tony d
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Turbo
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posted 01-07-2000 08:18 AM     Profile for Turbo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Edison didn't invent the light bulb, he invented the idea on how to keep 'em burning (incandescent). Many scientist had "light bulbs" back then and were trying to figure out how to keep 'em burning. Edison was the first one to succeed. But if it wasn't for Tesla (who worked for Edison for a very short time), anything to do with AC, electronics etc. probably wouldn't here, the man was decades ahead of his time.
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Envelope
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posted 01-07-2000 11:23 AM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It is a good question to ask how we should credit people for their inventions. But the fact is that until Edison the idea of the light bulb was not a successful idea. It's Edison's light bulb. He was an inventor in a world of inventors. Perhaps we should give more credit to the labor of invention itself so as to keep things in perspective.
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Turbo
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posted 01-07-2000 11:39 AM     Profile for Turbo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I wasn't discrediting Edison at all. Tony Draper said that some other guy claimed to have been the first. I was stating the fact that there were many scientist in the race for the first light bulb and they all had examples similar to Edisons, except no one could keep it (filament) lit for longer than a few minutes because it kept burning up. And then Edison had a great idea, put it (filament) in a vacuum where there is no air to burn it up, and voila! It was a fact that everyone overlooked.
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Slingshot
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posted 01-07-2000 12:13 PM     Profile for Slingshot   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Few people regard Edison's best invention is his research industrial park that produces lots of marketable products and his research facility essentially was the grandparent of all Bell labs or IBM research labs. He is not the first man invent the lightbulb. His idea in distributing electricity using direct current is a bit kooky. He's not even scientifically genius like Nikola Tesla. But he's an industrious man and he somewhat knew that his inventions must always be marketable and tangible to the public (if it does not make money, why bother?). Hence, most school children knew Edison, but not Tesla.
Although Edison is influential to the world, isn't his influence mostly relegated to the 19th century? (in the last Time magazine in 20th century he's the man of the century of 19th).

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DaveC
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posted 01-07-2000 12:35 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tony H - you seem to know a lot about Russia in WWII. Can you tell me what the approx. numbers were of those in the Soviet army that were killed for desertion, etc.

I remember reading somewhere that because of Stalin's policy of never retreating, that an ungodly number of soldiers were summarily executed for this (and for not carrying out the policy). I would like to know how many of the casulties actually are attributabe to Germans...


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Swervin Irvin
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posted 01-07-2000 12:44 PM     Profile for Swervin Irvin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
DaveC, I heard somewhere that there were two parts of the Russian army. The front line troops (from a wide range of Soviet satellite nations), and the KGB (or something like that), who were stationed behind them, and whose duty it was to shoot anyone retreating, and especially anyone not counterattacking when ordered. This meant officers too. Ruthless, but their persistent counterattacks broke the German army.

------------------
Take it vertical.


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Scout
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posted 01-07-2000 02:25 PM     Profile for Scout   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yeah, this was so-called "The Third column". My granddad was a Mortar battery commander during WWII and I remember asking him about the 3rd column. He said he knew they existed, but he never encountered them. Overall, I would think "The Third Column" existed mostly as "boogeyman", i.e something to intimidate the soldiers with thoughts of retreat. I don't think it actually had much impact.

I think that winter or not, you really have to give Russian people credit for winning WWII. To the best of my knowlege, the "lendlease" - USA shipping Russians military goods was a big factor to help Russian war effort. I'm sure Russians would have managed without it too, but it would be much tougher.

Cheers,
Scout

[This message has been edited by Scout (edited 01-07-2000).]


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DaveC
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posted 01-07-2000 04:17 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm still wondering if anyone can put any numbers forward. Within the last year a book on Stalingrad came out that (I think) detailed this....
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DaveC
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posted 01-07-2000 04:21 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
BTW - It's amazing! I posted my first reply in NYC and my second in Israel! All in four and a half hours!

I guess the profiles are screwd up...


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Broadway
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posted 01-07-2000 04:57 PM     Profile for Broadway     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What? You mean you didn't take the Concorde? Darn...
Broadway
Student glider pilot

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TonyH
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posted 01-10-2000 03:47 AM     Profile for TonyH   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Dave I'll have a look for you. I've plenty of stuff at home on the Eastern Front. If anything comes up I'll write it down for you. Swervin's right about the front line troops and Rear action guard, although they were called the N.K.V.D. and were kind of like the Gestapo or Einsatzgruppen of Russia.....they shot political undesirables, prisoners, deserters and others before retreating in the earlier part of the war and while advancing in the later part. But even commanders were involved in these actions too. Timoshenko and Zhukov had a terrible reputation among the Red Army soldiers for executing Deserters and soldiers who retreated without order, even though they also had a good name with their men too. These actions were instrumental in Russias victory at Stalingrad and their failures in the earlier part of the war. The Russians simply had the men and vehicles to throw at the Germans. Germans have stories about the Russians linking arms, with their rifles slung on the shoulders advancing towards the German lines, singing. Although I wonder how true this is. But when you think about it, where were they going to go?

Tony

[This message has been edited by TonyH (edited 01-11-2000).]


Posts: 287 | From: Dublin, Ireland | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
TonyH
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posted 01-12-2000 04:29 AM     Profile for TonyH   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi DaveC, I've looked around in various books that I have and I can only come up with vague sentences about Russian desertion during the war. Unfortunately I've no statistics for you.

Obiviously I'd say most desertions happened early in Operation Barbarossa, when the stories of cruel treatment of prisoners by the Germans began to filter down to the serving men, as quite a lot of prisoners escaped from the Germans clutches at the beginning of the huge encirclements in '41.
However most books tend to extol the Russians soldiers tenacity and ferocious fighting ability rather than his tendency to desert or not.

There are a few definate examples I know though. They suround the battle of Stalingrad...

In August, '42 the commander of the Stalingrad military Garrison deserted throwing men into confusion and leaving the city without crowd or traffic control.

In the first few weeks of fighting in Stalingrad, stories of the horrors of the fighting in the city panicked the raw troops in the newly arrived 6th Infantry Division. They began deserting in ones and twos, then in dozens and then in droves. To remedy this Chuikov gave his men a speech about the virtues of patriotism and denouncing the 'evils' of cowardice. He then shot every Tenth man in the line. Six men were killed.

In October'42 losses on both sides were horrendous. Paulus's losses were terrible, but Chuikovs were ghastly. The Russians had suffered over 80'000 casalties and thousands of desertions, among them Chuikovs own deputies for armor, artillery and engineering.

Personally I'd say that dersertions from the Red Army would be in the hundreds of thousands..........but thats just my opinion....

Tony


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DaveC
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posted 01-12-2000 01:52 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks for the info. I plan on reading the most recent book on the Battle of Stalingrad once I finish "Blind Man's Bluff"...I'll let you know what I find.
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leafer
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posted 01-12-2000 02:47 PM     Profile for leafer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Turbo,

sorry I didn't respond earlier bcuz no internet access bcuz changed ISP.

Yes, my mistake on the SR-71. It has a very low radar signature. I believe smaller than F14?

But IR signature has got to be hot as hell. You can enlighted me if you don't mind.


Posts: 803 | From: Alhambra, CA U.S.A | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

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