my profile | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
»  COMBATSIM.COM Forum Archive   » Game Discussions (Genre)   » Jets   » Outrage! (Page 1)

 
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: Outrage!
Linx
unregistered

posted 12-29-1999 06:27 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Greetings my fellow, thinking, Americans.
I found this on the RAF message board;
I have run across a very disturbing poll being conducted by Time Magazine. It is " Person of the century". As we speak Elvis and Hitler are winning over American GI's. I know our brothers in other countries may not be interested in this poll but the U.S. members should be.
I've created a link because it is rather long and I wouldn't want to waste alot of space here.
There is also a letter from Gen. Colen Powell attached.
www.angelfire.com/oh3/sweeper/index.html

Can Hitler and Elvis be more important than GI's!!!!!!


We can make a difference here.....go vote!

Feel free to copy this and post it everywhere you think it will do some good.

Elvis Presley....ARE THEY NUTS?!


IP: Logged
Impaler
Member
Member # 131

posted 12-29-1999 07:44 PM     Profile for Impaler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think they chose Einstein as person of the century.
Posts: 308 | From: an island in the pacific | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Vector
Member
Member # 463

posted 12-29-1999 08:21 PM     Profile for Vector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ja, I would choose Einstein

------------------
-\/ector, Flight Sim Enthusiast


Posts: 903 | From: Comox, BC, Canada | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
Member
Member # 1256

posted 12-29-1999 08:31 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I can think of several better choices for Times Magazine "man of the century", but the "official choice" of magazine is not determined by polls. It's determined by politics and political correctness.

What exactly did einstein do for the world that made it a much better place? Help invent the Atomic Bomb?

Lets try someone like Ghandi or Nixon! They both had their flaws, Ghandi wasn't white enough to be man of the century and Nixon wasn't un-crooked enough. But they both strived to do something more than sit around on their *** contemplating the universe.

When you let the people decide these matters you get very politically incorrect answers. Take the Times Magazine "worst idea of the century" poll. Guess what people chose by a landslide margin? And over half the letters sent in with that answer had but one word without any explanation to why they chose it writen inside the letter.

That word was...

Israel

Coenicedentaly that's also my favorite choice for worst idea of the century.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Spiff
Member
Member # 222

posted 12-29-1999 09:43 PM     Profile for Spiff   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Major Tom ponders:
quote:
"What exactly did einstein do for the world that made it a much better place? Help invent the Atomic Bomb?"

Actually, that wasn't the the question. Time's qualification was: "TIME's Person of the Century is that person who, for better or worse, most influenced the course of history over the past 100 years..." Einstein definitely fits the bill. Dictators and activists have risen and fallen, and their effects have been great, but Einstein shattered time itself and we (meaning the big WE) and our posterity will be forever changed.

BTW, Einstein didn't help build any nuclear weapons. His theories laid down the theoretical framework which others used, but Einstein was firmly opposed to nuclear weapons. Einstein was calling for bans on nukes long before it became socially fashionable to do so. As Stephen Hawking put it: "Blaming Einstein for the bomb is like blaming Newton for gravity."

PS Mohandas Ghandi was nammed runner up.

[This message has been edited by Spiff (edited 12-29-1999).]


Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kurt Plummer
Member
Member # 358

posted 12-30-1999 01:02 AM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Spiff,

It's been awhile since I read up on the subject but I recall Albert Einstein (does anybody even /know/ his FIRST name or give him the respect of an adult sexxed honorific like Mr. or Dr.?):

1. Said something like "Oh! I never thought of /that/." When first shown scribblings on the A-Bomb concept. He then immediately sent a note to President Roosevelt to the effect that 'work must be begun at once'. And FDR listened.

2. Only AFTER the bomb had been developed (and he again missed the consequences, beforehand) did he develop some kind of conscience and urge a secondary meeting with the 'worried scientists' over the morality of it's use.

Which /so/ conveniently lumps the blame on the Military when scientists have known for centuries that warriors WILL use their tools for what they were -intended- (and don't let nobody fool you about 'Atomic Energy' either) for.

As well as the fact that the worst time to bug a Military Mindset about 'morals' is when they are fighting the war that their 'elected leadership' has deemed a 'moral fight to the death'.

It is the nature of guard dogs to prove the length of their leash and if you don't set it before hand they will pull it right out of your hand.

If you want basic atomic science, why not Marie Curie? Her isolation of radium started us on the road to a lot more than the atom bomb has given us.

I think Ghandi was a dangerous old carp but I agree, insofar as he died conveniently early in Indias independence, that he lived a life of peace and would not let others abuse his name for war.

Politicians in general disgust me.

If I had to say the man with the most /social potential/ to change the -next- century I would likely pick one of the late computer gurus. They may not know it but they will have a far greater impact on what comes next than any other prior-to.

Which brings me to the 'important' part of defining our relevance.

Because the 20th can basically be defined as periods of preparation rudely interrupting the cycle of one long war, I think we overrate both ourselves and 'our time' as anything but a linking phenomenon from the great 1,000 year agrarian ennui` to something far more dynamic than a Utopian Market Entropy that seems our common social goal today.

Perhaps, at best, we will be a warning to those who will look back on U.S. in particular as those great fools of The Martialist Economics Era, suckered by the stuffy old gaffs in Europe and sucker/punched/ by a stuck up bunch of Samurai Salesmen in the Far East. Twice.

Personally I doubt if anybody will remember anything much 'earlier' than a week before if we continue stumbling into the depths of a Dark Age fit to make Romes Fall look like a Chinese Hiccup.

But if we do, I hope we will remember that for all the terror and aprehension and 'moral certainty' of this century we really DID _damn little_.

Which brings me to my pick for American of /this/ time:

Neil Armstrong.

Where AE ultimately failed to give us the Unified Field Theorems to go to the stars in this millenium, a humble Astronauts first step gave us the undeniable reality that we -could-, before we all ran back to the baby crib, crying economics.

Only once we get out there, /again/, in a manner that says we are going not simply going to 'stay' but blaze trails and move out, will we feel humbled to a sufficient degree of the infinetismal to clutch onto the utterly insignificant miracle that is a _common_ humanity.

That dream of equal independence through common respect is what really this nation is all about.


Kurt Plummer


Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
tony draper
Member
Member # 519

posted 12-30-1999 02:54 AM     Profile for tony draper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
if it where not for nuclear weapons i think most people who use this site would be dead the poloticians both east and west would have had us in another world war years ago , i think the only thing that stopped them was the notion that they themselves and their families would also be on the casualty list just an opinion, dont want to start a war of my own ...have a good 2000 tony d
Posts: 1280 | From: england | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
ClanMastr
Member
Member # 40

posted 12-30-1999 08:15 AM     Profile for ClanMastr   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Darn good thought Tony! You could be right.
Clan

Posts: 202 | From: Scotland Neck,N.C.,USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Envelope
Member
Member # 275

posted 12-30-1999 01:08 PM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If Albert Einstein is to be credited as influencing the course of human history, I would say it should not be for his relationship with nuclear weapons. Einstein did not invent nuclear weapons. It was he who discoved the energy that lay at the heart of the atom, illustrated in the popularly understood E=mc^2. But that was just one small part of the vast damage he did to classical physics. It is now Einstein's universe. It was his observations that provoked quantum mechanics. General relativity anticipated black holes. If the next century produces another Einstein, the difference between the 19th century view of the universe and 21st could be as vast as ours and the stone age. He said:

"God has punished my lack of repect for authority by making me one."

Time's man of the century might have been a German. Alas, he was Jewish.

But my choice for the man of the century is T A Edison. The light bulb, moving pictures, cylinder based recording media and the practical telephone have influenced the course of history even beyond the airplane or the internal combustion engine. It's Einstein's universe, but we move around in it thanks to Edison. He said:

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration."


Posts: 2057 | From: Davis, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Swervin Irvin
Member
Member # 888

posted 12-30-1999 01:59 PM     Profile for Swervin Irvin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have a profound admiration for the great Neil Armstrong, especially after what he said of loitering over his site, then landing with less than 30 sec. of fuel: "I was being absolutely adamant about my right to be wishy-washy about where I put her down." (or something near that)

He is truely a great man, but his accomplishment was as the apex of an incredible team of thousands of great men and women who designed, tested, and built the US space program.

Mr. Einstein, on the other hand, sat on his butt, and single-handed, changed science as we know it.

Thank God for the Atom Bomb and all of the Ally lives it saved by bringing the murderous Japanese to their knees without an invasion.


Posts: 497 | From: Redmond, Wa. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Scout
Member
Member # 657

posted 12-30-1999 02:07 PM     Profile for Scout   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Major Tom,

Would you care to explain? Why Israel is such a bad idea?


Posts: 715 | From: Israel | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
1234
unregistered

posted 12-30-1999 02:50 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
swervin ervin, the japanese were on the verge of surendering, the us didn't need to drop the a-bomb, it was drop for experimental reasons.
IP: Logged
Jackal
Member
Member # 1202

posted 12-30-1999 03:26 PM     Profile for Jackal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry to ask, but what has this to do with jets ?
Posts: 220 | From: | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Swervin Irvin
Member
Member # 888

posted 12-30-1999 03:54 PM     Profile for Swervin Irvin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dear 1234, thanks for your input. I believe from the perspective of late summer, 1945, it was the best decision our leaders could make with what they knew of the enemy at the time. Even with our 50 years of hindsight, I don't feel we have the right to second guess the people who had to fight and die for our freedom.

Dear Jackal, not much, but this thread had already attracted numerous responses, and I, for one, enjoy how the give and take of these open forums that can meander around and off a given subject. Haven't you had great conversations that ended up a long way from where they started? Thanks for your input.


Posts: 497 | From: Redmond, Wa. | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
BoneDome
Member
Member # 190

posted 12-30-1999 04:18 PM     Profile for BoneDome   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't know guys, but there is someone who I think deserves consideration for the title of "Person of the century". I think Winston Churchill is a figure who has had an enormous impact on the modern world.
Just think what could have happened if England had fallen to Germany in WW2.
Did he drink a lot? yes. Was he a good prime minister after the war? No. But it was his strength of character that carried the British through WW2, and his constant lobbying that eventually saw the involvement of the U.S in the European conflict.
If Britain had been defeated, where would the U.S have staged their air raids from? would the Germans have completed their atomic weapon program and used it on the U.S.A? (that could have happened I think. After all, Germany would have been safe from an atomic retaliation from the U.S because of the proximity of Germany's neighbouring (allied) countries).
I think he certainly deserves more recognition for his accomplishments.

Think about it.


Posts: 171 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Shavah
Member
Member # 243

posted 12-30-1999 06:34 PM     Profile for Shavah   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Time's qualification was: "TIME's Person of the Century is that person who, for better or "worse", most "influenced" the course of history over the past 100 years..."

If you take this in a literal sense, every last one of you is missing the boat...

Karl Marx perhaps could wear the title. Consider his writings and the impact they had on a certain gentleman named Lenin...

Lenin, in a nation ripe for change seizes the moment and the rest is history...

Almost everything we have in the west can be traced back to origins that were based in the cold war. The space program, which placed Niel Armstrong on the moon was a project born of the cold war. Microprocessors were a project born of the US space program. Almost all of the conveniences of the modern day lead back to origins in the race for military supremacy for the western world. The US Interstate Highway system is another, built for transporting troops and equipment around our country as fast as possible,is now used by everyone for it's convenience and affordability. Aviation and the rate at which it has advanced technologically can be directly attributed to military innovation, why you ask?....becasue we had to outdo those damn reds who might not even exist if it weren't for the writings of Karl Marx...


Posts: 551 | From: Omaha NE | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ozias
unregistered

posted 12-30-1999 07:29 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If Britain had lost the Battle of Britain,
then it is fairly likely that Werner Von Braun would have sent germans to the moon and nukes to the US.

IP: Logged
Shavah
Member
Member # 243

posted 12-30-1999 07:39 PM     Profile for Shavah   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
While that is true Ozias don't forget Hitler's hatred of the communists that drove him to start the war on the eastern front. In turn the division of his military forces resulted in the breathing room the RAF needed to rebuild and win the war. Again Marxism played a role in these events.

[This message has been edited by Shavah (edited 12-30-1999).]


Posts: 551 | From: Omaha NE | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
skip
Member
Member # 1470

posted 12-30-1999 08:29 PM     Profile for skip   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That bomb saved millions of American and japanese lives and at the time we had no choice but to develop it, hitler sure as hell was trying.
Posts: 260 | From: ,Texas,usa | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
skip
Member
Member # 1470

posted 12-30-1999 08:33 PM     Profile for skip   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Damn good point shavah.
Posts: 260 | From: ,Texas,usa | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
DaleReeck
Member
Member # 1021

posted 12-30-1999 09:22 PM     Profile for DaleReeck   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As much as I hate to nominate the guy for anything, Hitler probably had more effect on history this century than anyone. WWII was the catalyst for more technical advances in the last 50 years than had occurred in the previous 2000 years. If it wasn't for Hitler going psycho and starting WWII, so many things might have been different in our lives today. The influence of nuclear weapons (and hence the cold war) was a major part of a good portion of the century. Jets got a big boost from WWII as well, making travel from one end of the Earth to the other common place today. Not to mention the computers we are typing these messages on as well got a big boost from WWII. Also because of WWII, the US went from an isolated country with not much affect in world affairs to a superpower and a world leader. While we probably would have invented and/or achieved these things eventually, many of the advances we have today (and hence how we live our basic lives from day to day) may not have reached the level that they have now until well into the 21st century. All these things have a direct link to WWII, a war which Hitler started. For all the evil he did, it is ironic that his monkeying around made our lives in 1999 better than they might have been. Of course, of equal importance are the men who stood up against Hitler like Churchill, Roosevelt, Truman and yes, even Stalin. But that is another story

Posts: 327 | From: Cheektowaga NY USA | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Shavah
Member
Member # 243

posted 12-30-1999 09:37 PM     Profile for Shavah   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
An interesting point Dale. I seriously considered Hitler as well. But after careful consideration I went with Marx because Hitler was so against communism that it played a major role in many of his decisions before and during the war. Consider for a moment that MArx never wrote his books, Lenin never had them to read and the Russian revolution if it had happened had resulted in a very different geo-political landscape. Hitler might not have moved on Russia in the manner in which he did and, all things remaining the same, would have surely brought all of Germany's weight to bear on Britain, defeating her. Where would the world be now if that were the case?

I still stand by Marx being the most "indirectly" infuential man of the century.


Posts: 551 | From: Omaha NE | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Spiff
Member
Member # 222

posted 12-30-1999 09:54 PM     Profile for Spiff   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Kurt,

After being informed of the concepts regarding nuclear chain reactions by Dr. Leo Szilard, Einstein did in fact recommend the development of a nuclear power program (which included weapons research) to FDR in 1939. However, this recommendation was strongly based upon suspicion that the Nazis had begun their own program to develop nuclear weapons (as evidenced by the German halt of Uranium sales for their newly acquired mines in Czechoslovakia). Since the US's nuclear weapons program did not get started until 1941 (and then *really* started with the Manhattan project in '42), it doesn't look like Einstein's recommendations had much impact on FDR. After the war, Einstein advocated a complete ban on nuclear weapons.

As for the "Person of The Century"; such subjectively defined qualifications make the task of comming up with a single individual which we all could agree on, a fairly impossible task. Thus, many of the ideas

For me, Einstein qualifies as a worthy "The Person of the Century" for a couple of reasons:

Einstein's general theory of relativity had it's flaws (including the whole Cosmological constant bit which he later claimed was the greatest mistake of his life), but the theory itself utterly shattered notions about how the universe existed and set contemporary physics on it's ear. There was no longer an "Absolute space, in its own nature, without relation to anything external, remains always similar and immovable" (Newton), there was no longer this universally constant thing we call time. In the world of Einstein, time and space are maleable quantities... who would have thought you would be extending your lifespan by flying on an airliner??

Another, often overlooked contribution was his work in helping to lay down the groundwork in quantum mechanics (although he did have some incorrect notions here as well).

Many have repeated accused Einstein of "sitting on his butt", which I take to mean "okay, so he came up with some theories but how does that affect me?" After all, a light bulb can be felt and seen, but there is no relativity in the kitchen or the living room. I think Einstein's influence was far more subtle, but broader in scope. Here are just a few that come directly from Einsteins relativity theory (by no means exhaustive.. this is just what came off of the top of my head).

Were it not for the theories of Einstein (assuming someone else did not reach the same conclusions at a later point)

No nuclear power/weapons.

No Neil Armstrong on the Moon, no GPS, no space travel, period.

The Hubble Telescope would be an impossibility, and the stars would remain a mystery.

Oh, yeah... and no Planet of the Apes movie.

Additionally, and for me, this is what distinguishes Einstein's work from that of others, he created a philosophical revolution which trancended physics to change modern culture. Ironically, "Relativity" was taken by others and translated by analogy into "relativism" (which Einstein did not believe in) casting Einstein into the same boat of philosophical disruptors such as Karl Marx.

As you might have guessed, Einstein is a bit of a hero for me. Not a perfect one, mind you, but a deep thinker who commited heresy by mingling philosophy and math to expound a new universe. To me, he presents the best representative of a rather large group of technological revolutionaries (such as Edison and Curie) who all made this century so many orders of magnitude different from any other. Anyway, thanks for putting up with my posting...

For those who think naming Einstein the person of the century as unfair, I rather think Einstein, himself, would agree with you:

quote:
"My political ideal is democracy. Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized. It is an irony of fate that I myself have been the recipient of excessive admiration and reverence from my fellow-beings, through no fault, and no merit, of my own."

-Albert Einstein



Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Y2K BUG
unregistered

posted 12-30-1999 10:21 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am THE man!!!!!
Bill Gates

IP: Logged
Kurt Plummer
Member
Member # 358

posted 12-30-1999 11:07 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Spif,

For a very educational timeline and quotes.


KP


Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
Member
Member # 1256

posted 12-31-1999 06:46 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I never said nuclear weapons where a bad thing, but they certainly aren't a good thing, that's for sure.

Ghandi helped free a whole nation, Mr. E layed the framework for the most destructive device in the history of mankind. He's a much better choice. Heck, John Browning or Mr. Garand are better choices for person of the century than Big E. They invented the weapons that won WWII and Korea! And they weren't ashamed of how they helped win WWII like tutti fruity Einstein.

On second thought, Mr. Browning should be man of the century, his guns influenced millions of Japanese and Germans to die a wee bit early. Just look at how man vehicles of death and industrial destruction his .50 caliber M2 machineguns where mounted on!

scout-

Israel was a bad idea because we wouldn't have to worry about a middle east peace process if Israel didn't exist. There was pleanty of peace in the middle east before Israel came about.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Scout
Member
Member # 657

posted 12-31-1999 09:33 PM     Profile for Scout   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Major Tom,

I don't know you in person, and I'm not gonna draw any conclusions, but what you just wrote is truly one of the most ignorant things I have ever read on this forum. And I have been around for at least 3 years...

Libya? Lebanon? Iran? Afganistan? Osma Bin Laden? Taliban? Saddam Hussein? World Trade Center? Hello... Rings any bells? If not for Israel a lot more terrorism acts would be conducted worldwide, believe me.

Anyways, why are YOU worried about the peace in the Middle East? Do you have any personal economical engagements in that region? I don't think so. Do you wake up in midnight cold-sweated and thing "Jeezuz, please let there be peace in the Middle East"? I don't think so either. So what the f_ck do u care?

In fact, you as American citizen should be glad that there's no peace in the Middle East. That way your government will provide more working places for people that work at Martin Marietta, Boeing, MD, Ratheon and other corporations that get rich from selling things that kill people in Middle East. That, and having your great president's ego awarded with Nobel prize for making "peace".

And what is that crap about Einstein? Somehow I'm starting to get the idea that you have a problem with the "stein" part of his name. If so, get back to the woodwork you came out from. If not, then I'm sorry, but you still didn't say anything intelligent to proove your point, and no, "tutti-fruitty" doesn't fall into that category either.

Cheers,
Scout

[This message has been edited by Scout (edited 12-31-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Scout (edited 12-31-1999).]


Posts: 715 | From: Israel | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
Member
Member # 1256

posted 12-31-1999 10:58 PM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If Israel didn't exist, we wouldn't have to worry about terrorism from that region at all. Unless it's jewish fundamentalist terrorism, a little bit of that was going on it Palestine.

And no, I dont dont have any problem what so ever with people with a little bit of german in their last name.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
daveb
Member
Member # 173

posted 01-01-2000 07:49 AM     Profile for daveb   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Neil Armstrong and NASA gets my vote!
Why?
The Space programme gave us pictures of this ole planet and showed how unique and precious it is in the solar system. It was also a technological masterpiece and showed that dreams could be fulfilled.

Second person of the century goes to Sister Theresa of Calcutta (RIP) who showed that one person can count in this silly world of ours and that the sun can shine out from an individual.

------------------
Best wishes,
Dave B.


Posts: 613 | From: Windsor, UK | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Scout
Member
Member # 657

posted 01-01-2000 08:13 AM     Profile for Scout   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Major Tom,
Ok, I think I got the point. However, I'm confused about one small thing - Are you Beavis or Butthead? Thanks for clearing that up.

Sincerely,
Scout


Posts: 715 | From: Israel | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
Member
Member # 1256

posted 01-01-2000 08:21 AM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thank you for bringing personal insults to this discussion Scout. In no time I'm sure Chuck, Bones, and Disco Stu will enter the fray and we can have one big flame war just like in the bad old days.

Till the forums turn to that kind of total crud, I'll refrain from insulting you...

Better to shoot someone in the back while everyone else is shooting.


Posts: 1352 | From: Prescott, AZ | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
Phil47
Member
Member # 658

posted 01-01-2000 03:35 PM     Profile for Phil47     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wow,
Now we do have a debate going. Tempers flaring..Flags waving.

Show me a hero and I'll show you a tragedy.

Lets face it , we can't all be hero's, because someone has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by.

As regard to Hitler....One murder makes a villain...Millions, a hero.
I think that sums up that maniac.

With regard to greatness..
Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right use of strength.

If you don't want to be forgotten after you are dead, either write things that are worth reading, or do things worth writing.And if fame is to come only after death, then I am in no hurry for it.

Who bloody well knows who should be the person of the century.....Probably someone none of us have even heard off or have ever met.

So you might just as well nominate yourselves, because the debate could go on ad infinitum..Armstrong could'nt have got to the moon without so and so. Who could not have invented so and so, because of so and so's equations.......and so on and so on.

Just be happy we are all here..
Phil


Posts: 340 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
BoneDome
Member
Member # 190

posted 01-01-2000 06:06 PM     Profile for BoneDome   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hmmmm, I don't think Armstrong should be considered for the title. I have nothing against him, but I dont think what he did qualifies him as the most important person of the century. He was a pilot, and like many other pilots, he joined the space program. He was very LUCKY to have been choosen to go to the moon, but let's face it, it could just as easily been any of the other astronauts... Gus Grissom (had he not been killed) could have done what Armstrong did. It wasn't so much the man that made the space program so incredible, but the mission. The astonauts were exceptionally trained pilots.
If , on the other hand, we were talking about the "Greatest accomplishment of the century" then I would vote for the space program without hesitation.

Also, could someone perhaps explain why Hitler deserves to be nominated at all? The man was a schoolyard bully gone mad. He had his army walk all over Europe killing anyone who happened to get in his way (whether they were military, civilian or whatever). If you don't mind the analogy, in biblical terms he could be described as Goliath. Who do we remember and celebrate most from that storey? David, or Goliath?
Those who fought back and defeated the Nazis deserve much more consideration and appreciation than Hitler does.

DaleReeck, Hitler does not deserve credit for the inventions and advances of the Nazis. The actual people who made those advances are the ones who should be credited.

As I said earlier, I think Churchill is a deserving contender. But if you want to talk about technical achievements, how about Arthur C. Clark? He invented the Geo-stationary satelite, and look what an impact that has had on communication and media in the modern world. And unlike many other technical advances, he invented that on his own, without any outside influences.

Hey, this whole thing is rediculous anyway. SO many people have done things that have changed our lives, that by only choosing one, I think we insult all the others.

BoneDome out.


Posts: 171 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
leafer
Member
Member # 6

posted 01-01-2000 08:27 PM     Profile for leafer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Out of 100 people, you know who got the vote for person of century on A&E? Johannes Gutenburg! (I don't know if I spelled his name correct) He invented the printing press.

Issac Newton at #2

Einstein # 8

Spiff, I would be happy if Einstein took number one, too. Sure, he sat on his butt but what separates him from the rest of us is that he came up with some real serious chit by just thinking about it! :0)

Ghandi was not even close to the top and I agree. If you consider him for a person of the century then you must consider Dr. King as well.


Posts: 803 | From: Alhambra, CA U.S.A | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
delmonte
unregistered

posted 01-01-2000 08:33 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Interesting thread...

Major Tom, the Middle East has long been an area of extreme tension. The existance of Israel goes a long way to sorting out the problems, but also causes other problems as we well know. Don't make blanket statements when you obviously have no idea as to their truthfulness - it is painfully apparent that you have no idea as to the history of the region, let alone why so many problems exist.

As to choosing _any_ military figure for the Person of the Century accolade, I think it would be a crime against humanity in general - I would hope that we could try to focus on the positive aspects of the last century, not who was the "best" killer.

Einstein was a genius who has changed our lives in innumerable ways. As to "just sitting on his butt", I see no crime there... just because some people think with their muscles, it doesn't mean they are the most important feature of modern society - in fact I would go as far as to say that as time goes by, physicality is going to become the least important aspect of our worth as people. If we are going to evolve beyond being animals, we have to stop hitting each other and work together towards a better future.

As to Einstein's contributions to modern life, try these out for size...

Quantum Pysics - the underpinning for technologies such as Lasers, Television and Semiconductors. We are all sitting at computers which would not be possible without Einstein's work.

Einstein also deternimed that molecules and atoms exist, with profound impact on various fields from Medicine to, again, Computing.

Thridly, his Special and General Relativity have fundamentally altered the way we percieve the universe. As some have already mentioned, the entire space program would not have been possible without his work.

So, back to the criteria for the Person of the Century award - the person "who, for better or worse, personified our times and will be recorded by history as having the most lasting influence." The last (this? don't start...) century should rightly be recalled for its technological advances - never before has so much change been affected on our standards of living, and never before have so many profound technological leaps been made. Einstein's work formed the basis for many of these technological revolutions, and without it we would not live in the world we inhabit today.

In my humble opinion, Einstein is a more than worthy recipient for the Person of the Century accolade.

Thanks for listening,

delmonte


IP: Logged
Shavah
Member
Member # 243

posted 01-02-2000 12:55 AM     Profile for Shavah   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What I can't understand is why when the question was so clearly stated above, so many have misunderstood what was being asked.

Again, the question was: "TIME's Person of the Century is that person who, for better or "worse", most "influenced" the course of history over the past 100 years..."

Operative words here are "for better or for worse" and "influenced" and "over the past hundred years".

If you understand the question, Hitler definately qualifies for the title due to the ramifications of the decisions he made that still affect us to this very day. Einstein qualifies as well, as does Karl Marx. He was my pick even though he was a 19th century sorta person, because while he lived in the 19th century, his ideas bore fruit(and blood) in the 20th century and had far reaching ramifications for us all. Neil Armstrong did something historic but it had no where near the impact of, say, the russian or chinese revolutions, and he also was not in any position to make far reaching decisions that affect(ed) millions of us. The fact that Elvis was so highly rated on Time's survey just shows once again that most of the people were not paying enough attention to the question as it was asked.

[This message has been edited by Shavah (edited 01-02-2000).]


Posts: 551 | From: Omaha NE | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
nick moyrand
Member
Member # 214

posted 01-02-2000 01:18 AM     Profile for nick moyrand   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Naming a "greatest" of all times is akin of those ridiculous award shows we are periodicaly poluted with on TV.

Any mark of greatness would have to take into account one's time and personal situation. In other words, the only people worthy of any "award" are the people that made a difference "against all odds".

My personal choice would have to be Jeremy Bentham, an English economist of the last century who despite being an astute teacher of economics (Oxford), was also the highest ever recorded IQ, read it and weep Einstein!

In the same vein, anyone who has dedicated his or her life to teaching should be awarded top honors for, eradicating stupidity, is somewhere our only salvation.

------------------
Nick Moyrand


Posts: 897 | From: www.lakah-group.com | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Scout
Member
Member # 657

posted 01-02-2000 01:35 AM     Profile for Scout   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
nick,

Sorry, I don't get it, what 'difference against all odds' did this uber cheese IQ individual Jeremy Bentham made?


Cheers,
Scout


Posts: 715 | From: Israel | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Scout
Member
Member # 657

posted 01-02-2000 02:13 AM     Profile for Scout   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Shavah,

Well, if such is the question indeed Hitler qualifies. I'd just hate to see him being honored in such way - the title after all is "The person of the century" (if I understand correctly) and as such implies positive association by default.

Cheers,
Scout


Posts: 715 | From: Israel | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
BoneDome
Member
Member # 190

posted 01-02-2000 06:10 AM     Profile for BoneDome   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It looks like some people are confusing Hitlers INTENTIONS with what he actually accomplished. All he really accomplished was murder on a grand scale, and that is his legacy. Hitler was a bastard.
If we're judging people by how many people they destroyed, look at what Japan did to China in WW2.

Had Hitler succeded in defeating the allies, and taken complete control of europe, THEN he could be voted as the "Most influencial MoFo this century". but he lost the war. If we were to pick a figure from WW2, surely it would have to be someone who changed (or preserved) our way of life. Hitler has not changed my day to day life (although he did give it a damn good try), nor has he influenced the lives of the majority of the people, but the allies preserved my way of life against all odds. If England had surrendered to the Germans, Europe would be a very, VERY different place, so my admiration is targeted at the allies who INFLUENCED the outcome of the war.

FWIW, Thomas Eddison is a more worthy recipient of this accolade than Hitler, because without lightbulbs, I would bump into things when the sun goes round the other side of the Earth!

Once again, Winston Churchill has been the most influencial person of this century as far as politics are concerned. History has recorded that Hitler was unsuccesfull in his attempt to influence the global political scene. Hitlers actions had a direct effect on my family, but I still don't believe that he has actually influenced global history to any great extent. He was a failure.

[This message has been edited by BoneDome (edited 01-02-2000).]


Posts: 171 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

All times are MST (US)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3 
 

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | COMBATSIM.COM Home

COMBATSIM.COM, INC. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin Board 6.04b

Sponsor
2014 COMBATSIM.COM - All Rights Reserved