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Author Topic: Do people not like Total Air War?
Greggy_D
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posted 12-29-1999 12:11 PM     Profile for Greggy_D   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Just from perusing these forums, it seems that Total Air War (and F22 ADF) have been either ignored/forgotten. I haven't played either and I was just wondering why they don't have the staying power of F4, F15, EAW, etc....

Were they bad sims or have people just played the crap out of them and have moved on?

------------------
Greggy D.


Posts: 199 | From: Livonia, MI, USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Datajack
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posted 12-29-1999 12:37 PM     Profile for Datajack   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
TAW and F22-ADF are great sims. I still play TAW. Why people don't talk about it? I don't know.

The company that makes TAW (DID) is no more.
Maybe that has something to do with it.

I have seen talk on these forums about EF2000 V3 and how some of us would love to see it made.

Also, if there is something you wish to discuss about TAW then by all means post a message! That's what this forum is for!

Datajack


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mbaxter
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posted 12-29-1999 09:14 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've tried but never could get into TAW, but I still love EF2000. My main gripe with TAW is that the wonderful "browse planes" and "browse objects" views from EF2000 are gone. I loved the way you could hit F9 and then SHIFT-C to browse through all the nearby aircraft and pan the view around to see what they are doing. You could do the same thing with all nearby ground vehicles as well.

TAW got rid of that function, which was the one thing that helped the immersion factor so much in EF2000. Very stupid of them.

Also the TAW wingmen aren't as useful in a dogfight as the ones they gave you in EF2000.


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Lucky_1
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posted 12-29-1999 09:46 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I thought that the F-22 ADF had some of the best graphics of it's time. It was really a great game, especially with the latest patch. I just haven't played it as much. The campaigns are good, but I do not like being forced to be an AWACS controller. I know, you can jump in the fighter, but thats all I want to do. Besides that, I like the game.
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Wedge
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posted 12-30-1999 05:13 PM     Profile for Wedge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
TAW is a real good sim, and i like the idea of getting into an AWACS. Though i cant understand what people you americans put into the cockpit(if you look at the behavour of the wings when playing in "AWACS-mode")They rather drop down from the sky because they are out of fuel, than act on iniative and land while there still is.
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Lucky_1
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posted 12-30-1999 08:40 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually Wedge, Most times in ADF the F-22 is piloted by the Saudi's, Egytptians, or the Nigerians or something. But I agree, the planes do not have any common sense when it comes to fuel conservation.
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Tracer
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posted 12-31-1999 08:35 AM     Profile for Tracer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
mbaxter,
i'm not sure as it *has* been a long time since i played TAW,but if you press "SHIFT+\" and "SHIFT+Z" you can cyle thru groups of planes/ground objects(depending if you had selected ground/plane objects in the "Filter" options-F11?
Then by using F10 & F9 you could still "browse" any object and watch what it was doing?

Tracer


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mbaxter
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posted 01-01-2000 05:48 AM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Tracer, thanks for pointing out those keystrokes. Funny, they aren't on the keycard or in the manual.

Yes, if you hit F12, you can then browse through the nearby planes and vehicles using SHIFT-Z. Unfortunately though, you still can't pan the view around the objects - you are stuck in a fixed view. Not nearly as well implemented as EF2000. Also, it browses from one flight to the next, rather than one plane or vehicle at a time. Overall more clumsy and less useful than EF2000's browse views.

This is a common phenomenon where game manufactures get something right the first time and fail on their second attempt. I've seen this happen alot with sims.


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FOX3
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posted 01-01-2000 06:47 AM     Profile for FOX3   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
There is a new TAW message board at
http://www.ina-community.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Total+Air+War&number=13&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=

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Tracer
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posted 01-01-2000 08:28 AM     Profile for Tracer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
mbaxter,
Got another couple of "view" keys for you?
When the target is in range use "F3 or F2" to "padlock threat/Target"(depending if you are in AA/AG mode) then press "F9" this will give you a free "browse" mode- use Cursor keys to pan etc.Use "1&7" on keypad to zoom in/out
Press "Shift+F9" will cycle "Chase Cam/Satelite views"
If you padlock wingman-"F5"-the same keys above work.
The only key that works for the "Filter Key-F12" is when you have selected your "object to view"(Shift+Z or \) press "F9" will "Object held" -this means the views wont switch to another object/plane but you can't pan/zoom etc. keep pressing "Z & \" will cycle some camera views+will sometimes padlock air/ground(within Cockpit if in range)then press F9 and browse as above?

TAW=Total Awsome Work to get the most out of the view keys ;-)

Happy New Year!

Tracer


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KJSIMON
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posted 01-01-2000 09:17 PM     Profile for KJSIMON   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
TAW and F-22 AFD are the ONLY F-22 sims (so far) to correctly model stealth in a realistic and tactically useful way. 
Posts: 84 | From: Miami, Fla | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
mbaxter
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posted 01-02-2000 02:07 AM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Tracer, thanks a lot for the tips! I've started playing TAW again as a result of the info you gave me.

It's great to able to really watch the air and ground action going on around me. Adds a lot of immersion to the game. I never was able to notice this before, but wow, sometimes there's some damn intense ground combat going on! Very impressive.

It's also nice to play a sim with smooth framerates again. I'd gotten too used to F4 and USAF.

I must say this also: after not playing TAW in for so long, I really noticed that the wingmen, flawed as they are, are certainly a step up from the incompetent fools in F4 and USAF. Not half as good as the AI in Fighters Anthology, but still decent. It's a refreshing change.


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Tracer
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posted 01-02-2000 09:34 AM     Profile for Tracer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Mbaxter,pleased to have been of service ;-)
To be honest as i said earlier-it was just a case of "finding out what key views i could get"? DID were the *first* to use a "real" smart cam that switched to the action as it happened and EF2000 was an amazing system of cams-yes TAW/ADF manuals were pretty *brief* in there discriptions but "your enjoying it now,that's the main thing?"
If you fly close to a SAM site and it tracks you press "F3/F2(or make it a target "T" or "S" then use "C" & "X" to cycle) then Shift+F3/F2"AG mode and you will see it rotate and fire at you(press Shift+F2/F3 and you will see the missile streak towards you):it's quite cool!(if the missile "takes" a flare/chaff you are automaticaly placed back in the cockpit-otherwise you "ride" it into your plane!:-0 lol
Just to think you would prob never have found out those key strokes if Greggy_D hadn't posted his Question????
That's what i love about this forum-always learn/help/find something new out

Cheers
Tracer

[This message has been edited by Tracer (edited 01-02-2000).]


Posts: 681 | From: Edinburgh,Scotland | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Dragonryder
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posted 01-02-2000 12:52 PM     Profile for Dragonryder   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
<<It's great to able to really watch the air and ground action going on around me. Adds a lot of immersion to the game. I never was able to notice this before, but wow, sometimes there's some damn intense ground combat going on! Very impressive. >>

The original poster asked why a lot of people never talk or play TAW, and it's actually for this reason: A lot of "hardcore" simmers will insist that TAW has insufficent, incorrect, or even a lack of a ground war (The major complaint from EF2000). This is just so untrue, you know? You can see the ground war... especially those tanks nailing each other. The game has a big amount of misconception about it.

Also, a lot of people were "burned" when TAW was released as a full game as opposed to the expansion pack that it was supposed to be. I talked to one guy who flat-out told me TAW "sucked", and when I asked him if he played it, he said "No. I refused to buy it, because I was so burned."

Whatever. The sim rocks.


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mbaxter
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posted 01-02-2000 03:39 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes, thanks for the additional tips Tracer - I'll try them out when I get off work.

Re: the ground war, I must say after watching ground action in the campaign, that the ground war in TAW seems more intense than F4. I have never seen a real tank battle in F4. In TAW last night just for grins I orbited near a ground battle and used the views Tracer mentioned so that I could pan the view around and watch the tanks and AFV's shooting at each other. There were vehicles getting blown away left and right. I thought it was cool how the tanks would fire a single round, then downrange the target would explode, and meanwhile the AFV's would be laying down streams of tracer fire. Neat! I only wish the action were easier to watch.

DID really screwed up making the view systems so arcane, though. How hard would it have been for those idiots to just have a couple of keys that you could cycle through to see the action, with the view automatically pannable without having to hit additional keys? This is a no brainer! DID went through all this effort to make ground and air units fight each other, and then did their best to hide the action from the player, giving the player the impression that there is much less to TAW than there really is.

Really idiotic. I'm amazed. EF2000 and the longbow sims did it much better.

Another question for Tracer: I have found that in TAW I can hit F12 to enter the smartviews, then SHIFT-Z to cycle through each formation of aircraft or ground vehicles. But the view in this mode is not pannable, even after hitting F9 or SHIFT-F9. So you can cycle through but you can't look around to get a better idea of what the object is doing. Now, you can select the object in the tactical display and hit F2, then F9, to get a pannable view of it, but this only works if the object is in visual range.

Sorry to be so wordy, but I was wondering, is there a way to get a pannable view of any object, regardless of whether or not it's in visual range?

thanks again!


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FalconF1
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posted 01-02-2000 06:30 PM     Profile for FalconF1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey mbaxter,

We went through this back in the old board. Dont you remember? TAW has all the "smart view" features of Ef2000.

Yes, I still think TAW is/was an AMAZING sim. I havent played it in quite a while though.

As beautiful as F4 is- and its graphics are better than TAW- F4 doesnt give me that extra "eye candy" that TAW gives. There is so much to look at and it is so easy to see it.

I really hope those DID guys regroup. It would be a darn shame if they dont .


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mbaxter
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posted 01-02-2000 07:39 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
FalconF1 - no, TAW apparently does not have the same smartviews as EF2000. Let me explain:

In EF2000, you can hit F9, then use SHIFT-C to cycle through all aircraft, parked or in the air, within a radius of about 50mi or so. Or, you can hit F7, and SHIFT-C to cycle through all nearby ground vehicles and SAM's. With the hat switch, you can pan around any object to see what it's doing. This is simple, very effective, and adds greatly to the immersion, because you can actually appreciate the war going on around you.

In TAW, there does not appear to be an equivalent function. With TAW, you can hit F12, followed by SHIFT-Z to cycle through all nearby aircraft and vehicles, but it cycles through them one formation at a time, and you can't pan the view around, you're stuck in a fixed view. Now, if you want to get a pannable view of an object, you can hit SHIFT-Z from the cockpit view to padlock any objects within visual range (locks up aircraft our ground mobiles depending on what mode you're in) followed by F9, or you can just lock up an object by clicking on it in the tactical display, or by building a shoot list and cycling through targets. Then hit F2, then F9 to get a pannable view of the object. But this only works for objects within a shoot list or within visual range.

That sucks. It's a pain in the rear, and you can't use until you're too close. Heck, once you're within visual range, it's time to stop fooling around with the smartviews and get back in the cockpit!

EF2000 was much better in this regard. You could easily browse the action while still far away and watch the warfare going on. DID for some crazy reason chose not to stick with a method and worked and instead went screwy with TAW.

I like TAW, but I just wish DID had left the smartviews portion of EF2000 alone and used it in TAW.

Sorry to be so long winded with these explanations, but it's hard to be brief when you're talking about something so (needlessly) complicated. Anyway, if any of you know of a way to get around these limitations with the view system, then by all means let me in on it!


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Tracer
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posted 01-03-2000 08:03 AM     Profile for Tracer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mbaxter said"I was wondering, is there a way to get a pannable view of any object, regardless of whether or not it's in
visual range?"
No Mbaxter,
All you can do is use the F9 key that just holds the Smart Cam and stops it jumping to another plane/group or object-then use the \ & Z keys to cycle the views but of course the Smart Cam still has control.

Sorry,
if anyone else knows better please post it?

All the best

Tracer


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FalconF1
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posted 01-04-2000 10:55 AM     Profile for FalconF1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OK youre right about the "range" thing. I believe EF2k let you "see" other stuff from up 100 miles away, while TAW only lets you do it up to 50 miles.

The procedure in TAW does take about 1 second longer to look at stuff , but I dont think its as bad as you said , mbaxter.

Now, how the hell can we convince that DID gang to get back together and make another sim!!!?!?!?!


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Prophet
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posted 01-04-2000 12:10 PM     Profile for Prophet   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As far as viewing objects over 50 nm away, this is only a limitation if:

a: You are in any of the manual Emcon modes which do not support intership datalink

b: You have the OS (Own sensor) filter turned on

c: You have no AWACS or other friendly units outside of your own radar radius of 50nm.

If any of these conditions are met, you can manually add a target to your shoot list and then "Shift-Padlock" the target to view from target to you.

As far as comparisons are concerned, I have played Janes F-15, F-22 ADF extensively and have just started with F4. I missed F-22 so much that I went out last week and bought a discounted copy of F-22 TAW just to get the full AWACS capability and the dynamic campaign engine. Right now, I am not all that impressed with F4's graphics and padlocking...as far as I am concerned, DiD's are the best I have ever used.

Prophet


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mbaxter
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posted 01-05-2000 03:07 AM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
FalconF1 - maybe I'm not doing it right. You lock up an object (make it a target) then SHIFT-F2 followed by F9. This gives you a pannable view of the object, but I can only get this to work when the object is within visual range. Usually you have to be pretty close, like within around 20-30 miles. FalconF1 if you know how to get around this limitation, please explain, thanks.

Prophet - hey, what are the keystrokes to do as you described above?

Thanks guys for all the help!


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Prophet
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posted 01-06-2000 10:07 AM     Profile for Prophet   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mbaxter,

I am not sure of the keystrokes, I always use the MFD switches, however...

I do not recall if any the manual Emcon modes precludes the use of the IR Datalink, which is what allows a multiship flight to share contact information...it also allows you to browse your wingman's stores/fuel, etc. In any case, as long as you are Emcon E6, which is AutoEmcon, you will be fine.

Next, you need to make sure that on any of the MFD's that you are using for targeting, i.e., the Attack MFD, the OS button is not illuminated. If it is, it means that you are filtering out target data from the sensors on other allied aircraft. As long as this is the case, you will be able to manually target a bogie by selecting the contact in the MFD. You should see a number pop up next to the contact once you have selected it, and this will be it's location in the shoot list.

Hope this helps.


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mbaxter
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posted 01-06-2000 08:18 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Prophet - yes, you can manually target a bogey by having the appropriate weapon selected and clicking on the enemy on the situation or defense MFD. But if you then hit SHIFT-F2 to get a target view of the object, you'll find it only works part of the time, and you have to be pretty close (no more than 20-30 miles usually). If you get the SHIFT-F2 view to work, then you can hit F9 to get a freely pannable view of the object.

This is the problem. In TAW you can't get a pannable view of an object unless its within "visual range", which means it must be within 20-30 miles of you, or even closer if the object is somewhere behind you.

This has been my complaint all along. In TAW you can't browse the action from afar and see what's going on, like you can in EF2000. That hurts the immersion factor for me, but I can live with it. TAW still has a lot to offer.

By the way, another TAW question - do AI controlled planes ever successfully refuel in TAW when you're in the AWACS mode? I've never seen this happen yet. They just seem to hopelessly follow the tanker, never succeeding in hooking up, until they run out of fuel. I've seen aircraft fly halfway across Ethiopia just trying to catch the stupid tanker, and still not succeeding.


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Tracer
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posted 01-08-2000 08:00 AM     Profile for Tracer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mbaxter,i have *never* saw a plane make it to a Tanker-whether vectoring the Tanker nearer and then vectoring "the offending" plane so it def cuts down it's route.It will *fall* out the sky!
So rather than "be bothered" by the loss- phsychologicaly-of a good plane ;-),i always vector them to nearest base-where they *do* land.
As "we" were talking about views previously?
F4 is another view key which will padlock *any* ground/air vehicle in the vicinity-although it appears at most to be temperamental in it's choices...........
As i said before,i think the views "we" have for TAW/ADF are all we will find????
There is no padlock and browse at leisure as EF2000 had?...but if *any* ex-DID at Rage are reading these posts,then they might well be implemented in EF3000/Typhoon?
Still,isn't it wonderfull when you go on a low level rocket attack on say-an oil dump-and the blast hemisphere catches you out and you fly thru the debris and the engine ingests shrapnel etc.....;-)
If only *more* sims portrayed mud moving as good as TAW?

Cheers
Tracer


Posts: 681 | From: Edinburgh,Scotland | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
M.D.
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posted 01-08-2000 10:32 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello,
good news:www.rage.co.uk/press/didpress.htm
Typhoon is coming!!!

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Casey
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posted 01-08-2000 11:37 AM     Profile for Casey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Great post!

I "discovered" F-22ADF by accident a few months ago. I had heard of it but never seen it around until one day I was in a store and saw a cool-looking black box with really nice screen shots on the back, and a pricetag of $5.99!

Needless to say, I was extremely impressed with the sim I picked up for the price of a few beers. The graphics were smooth and very detailed. It was awesome, the first time I saw little condensation trails from bandits far in the distance, maneuvering for a shot on me! Wow- what a nice touch.

I found TAW online a few weeks later, for $20, with additional documentation.

The only reason I stopped flying F-22ADF was that i never got used to the flight model. I mean, who knows what the actual F-22 will feel like- but it seems to me, the DiD model handled like a B-52. Notice I am saying, it may very well be my fault- I didn't stick with it. But that's what turned me off.

Other than that, I sometimes fire it up just to take off and fly around- it looks that good.

Good hunting.


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mbaxter
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posted 01-08-2000 07:48 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tracer - thanks for verifying my suspicion about the AI aerial refueling problem. Boy that really sucks, because often when a flight will be requesting fuel before they head into enemy territory, and if you tell them to land, you've just scrubbed their mission! Or, you can ignore them, let the whole package go off into enemy airspace, and then watch in dismay as the survivors run out of fuel on the way home. Most irritating. Oh well, the same thing occurs in Falcon4 also, and nobody seems to mind.

The problem is that with the AWACS interface the AI problems in TAW are more blatantly obvious, whereas in a sim like F4, even though the AI is far inferior to TAW, you tend not to notice as much because you don't have the "big picture".


Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
sawder
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posted 01-09-2000 09:56 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't like the paint scheme in TAW.

I think I might buy it soon though.

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FalconF1
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posted 01-09-2000 04:36 PM     Profile for FalconF1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mbaxter- try *not* hitting "shift" when padlocking. Just hit F2, then go to F9. Thats how I used to do it.

Dammit. All this talk about TAW..Im gonna fire that baby up one of these days when I get the chance.


Posts: 300 | From: NY,NY- USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

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