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Author Topic: Jas 39 Gripen!
Henkurrr
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 02:00 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think *they* should make a gripen-sim!
that would rock phatass.
the swedish airforce is pretty cool and fly its own planes! who agree with me? anyone from sweden btw?
anyway, gripen rocks, check out saabs webpage and you'll see. www.gripen.se

/ Henrik Åström


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Spectre
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posted 11-19-1999 02:25 PM     Profile for Spectre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Although I agree that a Gripen flight sim would be cool...my recommendation is: don't hold your breath...
Posts: 900 | From: Colorado | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Attila
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posted 11-19-1999 02:42 PM     Profile for Attila     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Henrik,

I agree! I always was a bit disappointed that Innerloop (the norwegian Oslo-based company) chose the JSF aircraft. It would have been cool to see a detailed sim made by those guys for the Gripen!


Posts: 579 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lud von Pipper
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Member # 82

posted 11-19-1999 07:42 PM     Profile for Lud von Pipper   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry guys, but it seems that if the plane is not USA made&flown (or to some limited extent Russian) it doesn't sell on the other side of the ocean!
We've never seen a good Mirage (any version) sim(except for IAF), nor any european only plane simmed out there (except for EF2000 and the very old Tornado), so you can figure out the situation.
Call it US Dumbness if you likes...

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Attila
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posted 11-19-1999 07:59 PM     Profile for Attila     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Pipper, you ended up with a few exceptions in your argument --- maybe Gripen could join them... :-)
Posts: 579 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ozias
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 09:02 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Blame Top Gun, Iron Eagle and Dessert Storm for the US aircraft bias....

I'd like to see a decent Falklands sim, Sea Harriers versus Mirages, A-4 and Etenards.

The only sim I know of that had a Falklands scenario was Dogfight.


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Vapor16
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posted 11-19-1999 10:55 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am personaly in favor of a AV-8B Harrier 2+ sim ("hardcore")....but i wouldnt mind seeing a Gripen one, would like to enhance my knowledge of non-USA aircraft.
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Lucky_1
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posted 11-19-1999 11:02 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Call it U.S. dumbness" What? As if you think that we actually control what we want to be released. If that was true, then why the hell did Jane's dump A-10. Its an "American Made","American Flown" aircraft that everyone would love to had play.

Please, don't blame the simmers of the U.S. We just buy what is available. We have little control if any on what sims are released.

If there were only European aircraft sims released we would buy those sims as well.


Posts: 635 | From: Knoxville, TN. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
JA
unregistered

posted 11-19-1999 11:24 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yeah! How about a BAe Lightning sim? I'm only half kidding...Seriously, a hardcore Harrier sim (either U.K. or U.S. version for that matter) would be most welcome. Gripen is not a bad idea, either- especially if it had a Draken add-on!
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Kurt Plummer
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posted 11-20-1999 12:11 AM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wull Shucks,

Since you can't swing a dead Moose without hitting an Engineer in Sweden and you can't be an engineer without knowing how to program a computer...

OTOH, the aircraft I think would be just /super/ to model would be the 'TBolt' (Viggen) in WWIII.

Four Variants, Reverser-STOL into 2K foot Dispersal Basing, Some Neato A/G weapons (including one of the first if not THE first mass produced AShM), datalink integrated targeting via STRIL. First PD radar in Europe. A gun which will kill a bomber at nearly a mile and a half... 9-10 types of differing AAM.

All tied up in a package with not so much raw performance to be just 'overwhelming' (ala Eagle) but enough of an (especially low-speed end and climb rate) energy and angles dominance to be a very thrilling ride against MiG-21/23 type massed threats.

The problem with Gripen is that the Cold War is over in Europe and the only likely customers are places like Saudi, Chile, the PI, and of course South Africa.

To be sure, you could probably get some very interesting conflicts going in these regions but not something sufficient to justifiy the full package.

OTOH, if you think back to the 70-80's timeframe and the (then secret) NATO alliance 'silent partnership' you could have the Russians storming across the northern bounds getting at the NATO bases blocking AVMF passage and Sweden responding.

Or Sweden deciding to allow USN recovery basein/internment for damaged aircraft and the Sov's getting pissed about that.

Heck, even some of the /peacetime/ incidents were supposedly pretty hairy with the Swedes putting MiG's into the Bothnian Gulf on a 'DACT' regular basis in areas out of coverage from both sides' GCI.

And to be honest, NATO caused more SAF intercept reaction launches than the Russkies did so you could add RF-4, F-104, Tornado and a few others too...


Kurt Plummer


(Who would have an immediate '1950-70 addon pack' for the J-35 too...


Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
florrb
unregistered

posted 11-20-1999 01:48 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That hot looking commercial had me thinking much the same thing, and Saab's jets were always fascinating to look at. On a related but off-topic note, I've always wondered about a 1936 era sim; Italian biplanes vs Soviet bipes, I-16's against Mitsubishi Claudes. Not much in the way of 'good guys' to fly for but an interesting(to me) bunch of fighters.
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Major Tom
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posted 11-20-1999 03:14 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
There is a damn good reason why non US aircraft fail to appear in simulations.

They suck.

Cant put it in simpler terms.

Mirage, jack of no trades, master of none

Tornado, jack of all trades, master of none

EF2000, why bother when you can have a Sue or F-22 sim?

Harrier, too difficult to fly, not worth the effort, sucks in most areas of combat anyways

Gripen, too...errr...swedish

Lightning, big, loud, and with no teeth

I hate to be blunt, but we'll see a high fidelity F-105, F-4, F-8, A-7 or F-104 simulation before any simulation company would ever think of doing a Mirage 2000 sim.

I have a feeling that people joke about doing foreign aircraft simulations at Janes. Some body stands up and says "Hey guys, you know what would be a great aircraft to feature in our next simulation, the Mirage III!" Then everyone at the table has a good laugh, subsequently they go back to working on simulating an aircraft people might actually want to fly.

Hell, we'll see a F-101 sim before a SAAB aircraft makes it onto a box cover. And if I had to choose between a F-105 and a Mirage 2000 sim, or a F-101 sim vs a Gripen sim. It's USA all the way.

No offense indended. But I have no interest in flying inferior aircraft just because there are too many US plane sims on the market.

Foreign aircraft are fun to look at, and fun to blow up, lets keep it that way.


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nick moyrand
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posted 11-20-1999 05:47 AM     Profile for nick moyrand   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Major Tom, besides being a funny troll, your post is unfortunately inacurate.

A Mirage III sim (which you seem to consider "a big laugh") would actualy make for interesting scenarios.

You could include numerous Air Forces, numerous theatres of operations and all this with one of the prettiest plane ever made.

I am also quite sure that the Mirage mystique would be a very strong selling point.

It surely would make for a great Air to Air sim as opposed to the Moving Mud abominations that have lately poluted the sim market.

I don't mind American planes but they are
generely overweight, ungainly and often classless, perfect Mudbugs if you ask me.

I love crawfish but not in my sims.

------------------
Nick Moyrand


Posts: 897 | From: www.lakah-group.com | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Attila
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posted 11-20-1999 06:58 AM     Profile for Attila     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Flight sims that have modelled so-called 'foreign' aircrafts have a good track record (even in US?). I think of EF2000, Tornado and Flanker --- these have all become sim-legends. So it can be done! I guess it depends more on the quality and approach of the sim than the actual aircraft modelled.

A Gripen-sim with a detailed theatre (on par with Flanker's Crimea) from the north of Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Russia (Kola peninsula), would certainly be cool (check these images from the Gripen site). If modern graphics engines could do justice to the terrain in this area, it would certainly be a breath of fresh air! :-)

Also, this area could be open to many interesting what-if scenarios from the cold war era, as well as hypothetical and future conflicts. Norway --- a NATO ally with it strategic fjords/access to the North Sea/Atlantic, Russia with the strategic and military dense Kola peninsula. Neutral Sweden and Finland in between --- all bordering in the north. Regular NATO exercises in the north of Norway, mishaps, regular invasion of air space/intercept reaction launches, submarines showing up in wrong places etc.

And don't forget training, peace-time duties, and minor scenarios and conflicts. If done well, these things could probably get as interesting and enjoyable as full scale wars (few grasp the complexity of the latter, anyway).

There's a potential here to see most aircrafts --- from NATO, Russia and Sweden alike. And, why not add sea and land vehicles as well. In my opinion, a good modern sim should be built around a theatre with 'vehicle add-ons'. The area is ideal for that!

Just build a good sim core (graphics engine, FM, physics, etc.), model a varied and interesting theatre, include a powerful scenario editor, and the users will sort out the rest.

BTW, as these forums cover the earth, 'foreign' has little meaning... :-)

[This message has been edited by Attila (edited 11-20-1999).]


Posts: 579 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Wizard
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Member # 460

posted 11-20-1999 07:40 AM     Profile for Wizard     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dudes,

I'd like to see a Gripen sim too but the problem is: there's no scenario. Gripen hasn't been exported and the chances of Sweden entering any war except for UN peacekeeping ops is minimal. And who wants to fly peacekeeping?


Posts: 20 | From: Netherlands | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Attila
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Member # 853

posted 11-20-1999 08:14 AM     Profile for Attila     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Use your imagination --- here we have 4 countries bordering on each other, a lot of military activity on the border-line between NATO and Russia, with neutrals in between. We don't need real conflicts, we just want to play out hypothetical scenarios...

Let me add: Its a folly to build a modern sim around a particular scenario. Make a detailed and suitable theatre and a powerful and flexible scenario editor --- thats a sim by todays standards.

[This message has been edited by Attila (edited 11-20-1999).]


Posts: 579 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Bogey
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posted 11-20-1999 09:31 AM     Profile for Bogey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I agree that any NATO-Scandinavian-Russian conflict is highly unlikely today, BUT, why the h*ll should that stop anyone from creating a scenario like that for the purpose of a game???
Remember EF2000 anyone?
Take that scenario and expand it a little!

I'm Swedish myself and love our fighters, Viggen being my personal favourite.
A sim featuring some of the things Kurt Plummer mentioned would be superb!

I would like to see a scenario that spanned over several decades and included several different aircraft.
J-35 Draken, JA/AJ-37 Viggen, JAS-39 Gripen would be in it along with other A/C that fit the scenario.
Beginning in 1960-65 somewhere and ending 2015-20...
A lot could happen in 20 years... :-)

Feedback, please!

------------------
Pushing the edge of the envelope...


Posts: 339 | From: West coast of Sweden | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
>
unregistered

posted |11-20-1999 01:37 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
just testing...
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