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Author Topic: BASIC differance between combat sims and the "real world"

posted 10-29-1999 10:39 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What really separates a combat flight sim form the real world? Of course there are a lot of differences but, I feel if you dig deep enough it comes down to one thing...reward and punishment! When you get flamed by a Mig-29, or lose a mission, what punishment is involved? What do you lose? Nothing! In fact you are rewarded with the “Fun” of playing the sim. I don’t have to tell you in the “real” world a lot rides on completing you mission, even training ones have life or death consquences! This motivation is missing in the sim world. Of course we can’t have out computers blow up in our face when something goes wrong (I hope not anyway) but, what can the manufactures do to give us a “reason” to win? I think there are ways to reward/punish for completing/failing missions. I will not go into the technical aspects of what I’m suggesting because, I honestly don’t know what they are, I would like to get some feedback from you on a few ideas.
Let me setup a “what if” situation here. You buy a new title and it come with all the standard missions both training and campaigns. It is a full game title with nothing “left out”. There is an added campaign I’ll call the “real world campaign”. There is no campaign installed yet, it only comes with a password and game registration number used to log onto a Internet site, from which you can download the campaign. Once you’ve logged in and downloaded you have say… two weeks to log back onto the site to transmit your success or failure in this campaign. Why two week? This would put a time factor/pressure (just like in the real world) to complete the campaign. If you don’t log back in inside that two week window you would automatically be logged as a “fail”.
Now let’s say you complete the campaign and transmit your results to the web-site, what happens next? This is where the rewards/punishment comes in! Below are some possibilities.

1. You receive a gift packet in the mail with $$ off coupons on a wide range of products, $10 off you next sim purchase, $30 off your next Video card, or $100 off you next computer! The size of the packet would only be limited by participation of the dealers/retailer.

2. You are automatically allow to download an upgrade to the original sim that includes, new controllable aircraft, add-ons to the mission builder, or a new campaign with new terrain in a different part of the world. How many would like, after completing the Vietnam campaign in USAF, to be given some Mig-CAP missions with a new F-8 ? This would only be limited by the game manufactuor.

3. You are interred in a drawing to receive a ride in a Mig-29, or an hour in a US Air Force, full motion, F-16 simulator. This would only be limited by the creativeness of the sponser.

Of course the punishment side is you lose all this by not completing/losing the campaign! What do you think? Would something like this add to the excitement? Would it make you wont to finish the campaign? I think it would even add to the basic game itself! While playing the other parts I.E. training and installed campaigns I would be trying harder, learning more, in preparation for the “real campaign!”

Well ………

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Major Tom

posted 10-29-1999 12:54 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Two words

Electroshock Punishment ;-)


And people think the world of hard core simulations alienates too many people right now.

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Member # 275

posted 10-29-1999 01:40 PM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wow, tied to your computer for two weeks? As a reward, why not let 'em go outside and see what the sun looks like? Real war has few if any rewards and computing has its own punishments, although I salute your sentiments, Hog. It just goes to show the drama that already exists in flight sims.

In the name of realism, would anybody give up the right to go to the bathroom whenever they want? No way.

Posts: 2057 | From: Davis, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 191

posted 10-29-1999 07:14 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Realism vs. Sims? Here's one of my observations:

Just once, I'd like to see a sim where enemy jets use smart tactics, like hit and run tactics, for example. I'd like to see the enemy sometimes fire off their BVR missiles and then break off the engagement and head for safety. I get tired of the way every air-to-air engagement in these flightsims we play is an all-or-nothing affair. The losing side always gets slaughtered down the very last plane. This is rediculous.

You look at real air combat over the last 50 years and you'll find that even in very lopsided engagements, there are always survivors on the losing side. In fact, usually MOST of the aircraft make it back. Take the '82 Isreali invasion of Lebananon, for example. Syrians got their butts kicked big time, yet despite losing decisively, most of the Syrian planes were able to survive the air battles.

In these flightsims we play, the enemy always has the same tactic. Once they find you, they bore in, fire their BVR missiles first, then their short-range missiles, then they get into a dogfight with you and your wingmen, and fight until every last one of the enemy is dead. No sense of self-preservation. The enemy will engage you suicidally even if he's just one Mig-21 going up against four F-16's. Doesn't matter. The enemy acts like robots.

Frankly, that gets old. I'd like to see the AI in flightsims use a randomn chance factor, where sometimes they choose to engage from max range and run away, or do other clever tactics, instead of always fighting to the last man. It would sure make the enemy seem more...human.

[This message has been edited by mbaxter (edited 10-29-1999).]

Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
nick moyrand
Member # 214

posted 10-30-1999 08:32 AM     Profile for nick moyrand   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey, I like that "reward and punishment" deal.

I think that every copy of hard core sims should be supplied along with a 7 foot, hungover drill sargeant.

Imagine being whacked upside the head everytime you just don't grease that landing!

How about dropping and "giving twenty" everytime you crash back to desktop?, tell you what, everyone would upgrade real quick.

Of course, any "spur of the moment" deragatory comments about how Microprose releases buggy products, would yield a senseless beating that would leave even Roney King, green with envy.

When you think about it, is it such a bad idea?

Of course, the ultimate punishment would have to come in the form of a lengthy conversation with Kurt Plummer. Survey said that most guys, when confronted with such a cruel and unusual fate, opted for the "sensless beating", much to the sargeant's glee.

Nick Moyrand

Posts: 897 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

posted 10-30-1999 12:23 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sure, why not, hell if you finish a mission why don't they just give you the freaken company to play with???

How bout for a punishment they blow your ... off when you fail?

Use your damn imagination, quit relying on the game makers to fill in all the dang details! U want consequences, then impose em on your self, U want rewards U supply em.

U know what the real reward is when a combat pilot gets it right??? He/she gets to see their kids or their parents or their spouse again.


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nick moyrand
Member # 214

posted 10-30-1999 01:28 PM     Profile for nick moyrand   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What the hell?...
Posts: 897 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

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