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Author Topic: Which sim portrays the best feeling of flight?
Box-man
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posted 10-27-1999 08:53 PM     Profile for Box-man   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Based on the sims I've played, I'd say Joint Strike Fighter takes this award hands down. I loaded up that old sim (came out in '97) the other day and was shocked at how superior it was to all the latest sims in terms of overall graphics and the feeling of forward motion and speed, especially at low level. The JSF graphics engine, especially the way terrain is rendered, simply blows away any other sim I've ever played.

Also, the positional sound in JSF is the best of any sim I've seen, and you don't need EAX, A3D, or a PCI board either. Even on an ISA soundcard the sounds in JSF do a great job of creating the illusion that you really are flying a fast fighter jet.

JSF also has real weather effects, doing rain and snow better than any other combatsim that's been made. You can also turn on "head shaking" and "head tilting" to make the feeling of flight even more real, especially at low level, as you find your view swaying as your head tilts during those turns, or jiggling as you ride throught that turbulence at low level. Very well done.

I wish there were a way to convince Eidos/Innerloop to redo this sim with the same graphics engine except add some missing features like:

-A more dynamic campaign
-Custom loadouts for wingmen
-Enable the "fly any plane" cheat for wingmen (you can already use this cheat yourself, but wingies must fly F-22's and JSF's).
-Give wingmen ability to attack ground targets.

With these minor additions JSF would simply kick arse, big time. But since I'm not holding my breath for Innerloop to come through, could anybody who's played JSF suggest a sim that has a terrain/graphics engine on par with JSF, but with the above features included as well? I have hope for Flanker2...


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Yogi
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posted 10-27-1999 10:27 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I agree about JSF...it had serious potential. Only thing I would add to your list is the Navy variant.....
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Caveman
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posted 10-28-1999 12:50 AM     Profile for Caveman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Is there a demo of JSF on the net?
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SGAV8R
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posted 10-28-1999 01:18 AM     Profile for SGAV8R   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What I felt was lacking in JSF was the cockpit. Seemed to me the cockpit was rather slipshod compared to the outside surroundings. I agree, that game had MAJOR potential, but the cockpit, HUD and the likes, IMHO need to be done up ALOT better. I kindda feel the Falcon4 HUD, or even the Hornet Korea HUD & cockpit would have been closer to what I had in mind. Feel free to disagree, but I think on my part, I will reload JSF and try to see it from a new angle, your angle :-)
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camryn
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posted 10-28-1999 06:36 AM     Profile for camryn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
There is a Download for JSF at the following...
http://www.demoland.com/pages/dd_dou.htm

Camryn


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daveb
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posted 10-28-1999 07:01 AM     Profile for daveb   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Not being a pilot I cannot say but for me Mig Alley feels it might. F2 probably will be the best.

------------------
Best wishes,
Dave B.


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Sammer
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posted 10-28-1999 07:22 AM     Profile for Sammer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
One would think that a JSF would have at least Maverick missiles with optical or IR targetting systems.

Or at least a FLIR or LANTIRN for easy targetting of convoys. But nooooo...

You just have to settle for TLAR (That Looks About Right) method which I frankly think is a waste of time, since strafing and low level bombing is almost impossible because the 'auto-pilot' does an auto-pullup when you are 500 ft off the ground. I fixed this by lowering my gear, but then I still hate TLAR.

And worse still you gotta use bombs against tanks. Tell me one thing, what are missiles for?

-Sammer


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Spectre
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posted 10-28-1999 07:45 AM     Profile for Spectre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Flanker 1.x hit the nail on the head for flight dynamics.
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daveb
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posted 10-28-1999 07:50 AM     Profile for daveb   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes Spectre,
You're right .. and roll on F2!

------------------
Best wishes,
Dave B.


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Jake Strafer
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posted 10-28-1999 08:43 AM     Profile for Jake Strafer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I can't believe no one has mentioned A-10 Cuba! This for me has the best flight/physics engine I've ever seen, and I've played all the above mentioned sims (except F2). In fact, if you read in the JSF manual, Interloop SAYS that they really liked A-10 Cuba and were hoping to model its flight engine. Parsoft's last release, FS:SDOE, was pitiful compared to A-10. I think flight modeling makes or breaks a sim. Other nice flight models belong to: Flanker 1.5, Falcon 4, Jane's F-15, and Warbirds/Dawn of Aces, JSF, (Flight Unlimited so so for civi sim).

[read all the above as IMHO, no flame]


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LeadHead
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posted 10-28-1999 12:37 PM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My vote goes for DI's Tornado and F-16 sims...
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FalconF1
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posted 10-28-1999 01:34 PM     Profile for FalconF1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wow, didnt know we had so many ex-fighter pilots in this forum!

All kidding aside, I think F4,TAW, and EF2k v2.0 gave me the best feeling of what I think it feels like to fly one of those fighters for real. In ef2k especially- when I fly real low beween river valleys.


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Turbo
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posted 10-28-1999 03:24 PM     Profile for Turbo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You guys should try X-Plane. It's got the best feel by far. Too bad it doesn't have all of the rest of the stuff.

JSF does have a good feel too, it could have been a killer sim (I bought it anyway). BTW, you can disable the auto pull-up using one of the MFDs.


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Major Tom
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posted 10-28-1999 05:13 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
JSF gives the best sensation of flight by far. But EF2000, give you a nice sense of velocity and weight. Ever try to pull up and kiss the ground like most people do in other simulations? In EF2000 your attitude simply changes by it takes a bit for the plane to catch up. Whicked dive bombing in that game.

Flanker 1.5 would probably have the best feeling of all of them, except that you dont really get bounced around in the cockpit at all.


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Major Tom
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posted 10-28-1999 05:15 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Innerloop could have been great, I'm talking Spectrum Holobyte great. What ever happened to them?
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Box-man
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posted 10-28-1999 06:27 PM     Profile for Box-man   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't understand why Innerloop bailed out either. JSF was the best looking sim ever made, perhaps only matched by F2, but for that comparison we'll have to wait and see. In any case, F2 is coming out more than two years after JSF came out.

True, JSF was incomplete, with no Mavericks or LGB's, just missiles, rockets, and GPS guided weapons. And not being able to give custom loadouts to the wingmen, or get them to attack ground targets, was a major shortcoming. The campaigns were fairly "dynamic" but not nearly as good as the Wargen engine in EF2000. However, JSF did model four very different regions of the world, whereas most sims only cover one theatre. JSF also had the best wingman command structure I've ever seen in any sim, far superior to F4. In JSF you had very precise control of each wingman, and they obeyed orders very well.

With a few small tweaks, JSF could be one of the best sims ever made. For very little cost, Innerloop could add the missing features we discussed to the existing JSF code, and then re-market the sim as a new game for $50. I'd buy it in a heartbeat and so would most other sim fans.

Even with it's shortcomings, I still play JSF simply because it's a joy to fly. The feeling of flight is unsurpassed at any altitude. The sounds are excellent, too. I also like the "fly any plane" feature. Makes the campaign more interesting. Try flying a mission in the SAM-infested Russian theatre sometime using a non-stealthy F-16 instead of a JSF. If you want to live you'll quickly learn the art of staying down on the deck!


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Kurt Plummer
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posted 10-28-1999 07:18 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Sammer,

The reason the TLAR method was used is the JSF is actually supposed to be the first combat jet /without/ a HUD. I've yet to see-believe on precision stuff like carrier landings but the idea is that you 'take your HUD with you' when looking outside for threats and also to cue AIM's. HUD calibration is a major maintenance pain whereas IR or magneto track of a helmet is both flick-switch accurate and (relatively) cheap.

The lack of LGB and Maverick doesn't surprise me. The AGM-65 motor group hasn't been made in oh, four years? Just recently they wanted to sell some more and had to pull ancient AGM-65A's from the deep reserves to be reseekered with I2R and enhanced TV so they foreign could sell some AGM-65G from-stock to make the contract terms.

If JSF did a good job with things, you should have two other, really good, options:

1. BAT
Brilliant Anti Tank. A glider munition carried in a SUU-64/66 shell. Homes acoustically with an MMW backup if I remember right. Pop the bus about 5K above the target convoy or whatever and awaaaay they go.

2. LOCAAS
Low Cost Autonomous Attack System, a small tubojet powered weapon with automatic target recognition off a laser radar seeker and '3-way' warhead

Supposedly up to 24 in an F-22, I know not how many in/under the JSF.

When packaged into a WCMD or 'wind corrected munitions dispenser' bus, the weapons should be able to travel up to 8nm downrange and basically /have no/ 'seeker acquisition' limitation. You see the enemy on radar, yours or JSTARS and you drop-on-coordinate.

LOCAAS will also travel up to 100km /past/ the initial release marker in 'hunt mode'.

IF it ever 'works', poor 485lb, single target, lock on before launch, Maverick just won't even be in the same class I'm afraid.


Kurt Plummer


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Kurt Plummer
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posted 10-28-1999 07:21 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ooops!

Looks like they switched numbers on me:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/mmc.htm

Bottom of the page.


Kurt Plummer


(who would like to /try/ JSF but doesn't have glide...:`)


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SPOT
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posted 10-28-1999 07:41 PM     Profile for SPOT   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You know Box-Man I downloaded the demo of JOINT STRIKE FIGHTERS. I'm going to play with it awhile. I can tell you though the graphics are perfectly acceptable to me -
I flew low level with turbulence and I had fun -ooops - it was a challenge for me. Demo has a 4 minute time limit. I certainly had a very good sense of speed flying low level. Even has little trees in the hills whipping by you. One other thing. Cockpit doesn't have everything sims to day have- but there are nice little touches - your hand on the joystick in the virtual cockpit moves with the movement of joystick on your desk. Your legs move to when using the rudderpedals. Nice touch. Looking forward to bailing out and seeing if I can walk once as advertised

And I ordered EF2000 from EB (14.25 that includes shipping) today because of what I read in another string at COMBATSIM.

[This message has been edited by SPOT (edited 10-28-1999).]

[This message has been edited by SPOT (edited 10-28-1999).]


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Barron
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posted 10-28-1999 08:37 PM     Profile for Barron   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Try these:


A-10 Cuba
Flanker 2 (haven't tried it)
X-Planes
Warbirds

Barron out


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Boxman
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posted 10-28-1999 08:42 PM     Profile for Boxman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kurt,

When you want to have sex with the wife does it take you as long to get to it as it does when you write a post? My God man, less IS more. Or how about KISS, Keep It Short & Simple.


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JimG
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posted 10-28-1999 09:24 PM     Profile for JimG   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I must be missing something...I think F4 has a excellent sensation of flight.
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Box-man
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posted 10-28-1999 11:03 PM     Profile for Box-man   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
SPOT - yes, in JSF you can bail out, and when your chute lands, you can walk or run around and shoot at things with your pistol. Once, just to see if it could be done, I bailed out on purpose over an enemy airbase, then walked up to one of the AA batteries, and shot it up with my pistol. It blew up after a few hits. I thought that was pretty cool. One thing I never had tried it bailing out near a convoy and seeing if you can take out the trucks with your pistol. BTW Spot, the final patched version of JSF looks even better than the demo.

HINT: If you hold down shift, you're little downed pilot will go from walking to running.

I'd forgotten about that little feature. A very entertaining addition to the game, though rarely used, because in JSF, taking a missile hit is usually catastrophic, giving you no chance to eject.

Kurt - JSF does model the various JDAM's, including the -B variant that releases scores of smart warheads that seek out any tank or vehicle within a certain radius. If you drop one of these properly on a moving convoy, you can often take out the whole group at once. Pretty cool to race over a convoy, with all those tracers flying up at you, release, pull up, hit AFT view, and watch those darts shooting down into the vehicles. BTW, JSF does the best job with tracers and AAA fire of any sim I've seen.

The tracers are much more vivid and realistic looking than the ground fire in F4, and the proximity detonating AAA in JSF is simply the coolest, much better done than the stuff in F4. Fly near Kabul in the Afghan theatre in JSF and you'll see what I'm talking about. When those AAA shells start exploding in the air around, getting ever closer to your jet, you're heart will start pounding as you frantically try to throw the gunners off. Very cool.


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SPOT
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posted 10-28-1999 11:30 PM     Profile for SPOT   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well I did the ejection sequence and to quote the README file
"<BothCtrl<E> Eject (this is REALLY COOL)"

And it is. WOW! What other developers could do with that feature - You could have real honest to goodness SAR (Search and Rescue) in a game. Once I landed I moved pushing my joystick. I could move my head and kinda move my body hanging from the chute.
It really is a COOL feature. The graphics in JSF game are not bad - in fact except for the helicopters/ac/vehicles in APACHE/HAVOC the landscape is better then that helo sim.

Well I ejected again - in the rain -and I drifted. I could see my shadow on the ground as I got closer. I twisted in the chute - but that caused me to come down to quick - so I guess I died since it said I failed the mission. I couldn't run. Way nice. Every Hardcore sim should have something like this. It really is well done. Geeez an F-105 or F4 Phantom sim with a CH53/SAR feature.....

[This message has been edited by SPOT (edited 10-28-1999).]


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daveb
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posted 10-29-1999 02:18 AM     Profile for daveb   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Someone mentioned X-Plane. Well, I did not include that because it's a civilian sim.
Mig Alley still feels closest IMHO with Flanker 1.5.

The worst I think is F15. BTW I am a fan of the game it's just the plane felt like driving a fully laden truck.
Not being a pilot I cannot know so perhaps real pilots can speak although in my experience they are great at pointing out what is not realistic but cannot agree on what does feel realistic .. grouped together like lawyers and accountants .. urm sounds like I'll get flamed.

------------------
Best wishes,
Dave B.


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Box-man
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posted 10-29-1999 03:23 AM     Profile for Box-man   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes it is very subjective, but based on all my sim experiences I'd have to say JSF did the best job at capturing that elusive and hard to define sensation of flight, through a combination of graphics, sound, and other factors. I give a lot of the credit to the unique implementation of ground objects, including individual trees, bushes, buildings, etc. There is so much ground clutter flying by that you really get a sense of how fast you are going. Except for Apache/Havoc no flightsim has ever had ground objects like this. Also the engine is so well-tuned that it gives a good framerate even on a "lowly" P-266.

Personally, I think it would be a loss to the flightsim community if Innerloop never does a follow up to JSF. This sim had so much potential. I wrote Innerloop and told them as much yesterday. I would suggest all of you take a moment to do the same. Unlike many companies Innerloop is not afraid of feedback and has their email address posted prominently on their front page: http://www.innerloop.no/


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Major Tom
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posted 10-29-1999 03:48 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've written Inerloop on 3 seperate occasions and never recieved a response.

I have a feeling that if Innerloop could only find a publisher, we would have some simulations to rival the Air Combat Series and Spectrum Holobyte greats.


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Sammer
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posted 10-29-1999 03:58 AM     Profile for Sammer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yeah,

I found out after I got hit, and I decided to see how it was when you ejected.

Found I had a sidearm, but I couldn't catch the convoy. Moving too fast.

-Sammer


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mbaxter
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posted 10-29-1999 04:40 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Sammer, next time try holding down SHIFT and run after that convoy. You might catch it!

You know something else that's cool to do in JSF? Use the "FLY ANY PLANE" cheat and put yourself in an MI-24 Hind, then setup a mission to interdict a convoy. Takes a little getting used to flying the chopper, but once you get the hang of it, you'll find the Hind is a much more effective weapon against convoys than any of the jets. You can really wipe them out. Hinds also work well against AAA emplacements. The down side, it's near impossible to land the sucker!


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Ravan
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posted 10-29-1999 07:36 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think that Frame rate has a lot to do with how we get a feel for Sim flight models. It usually takes around 18 months for hardware to catch up and put these Sims through their paces. Try loading older Sims on your machines.... All graphics to the max... absolutely no stutter.. The Immersion factor goes way up. Only then can you make a real assessment of the flight models as they should be. Go grab one of your older Sims of the shelves.....give it a dust off.

Ravan.


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mbaxter
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posted 10-30-1999 06:26 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes good point. When JSF was released, the fastest thing was a P-II 266. You should see JSF on a P-II 450 or higher. Heck, even in software rendering mode it still looks darned good on my machine, and in Glide it's outstanding. Often the best thing is to play a sim that's a couple of years old on a new, fast PC. However in JSF, the terrain objects are the main factor in making it feel "real". Most sims, like F4, F-15, etc. just use flat tiled terrain. They don't have indivual trees, bushes, etc flying by. In JSF these ground objects really give you appreciation of the terrain whizzing past - it just feels like you're going faster. Also JSF has no "shimmer" effect on the terrain like F4, IAF, F-15, and other sims. In JSF, everything just looks real solid and lifelike.

To me, the ultimate sim would be: EF2000 with JSF's graphics engine. Imagine that..


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Sammer
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posted 10-30-1999 06:47 PM     Profile for Sammer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
JSF really has the terrain well done. Really gives you the feeling of NAP flying.

Only thing is that my jet felt too dang slow. At full afterburner at Angels 10 my top speed at level flight was 500 knots.

-Sammer


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Spectre
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posted 10-30-1999 08:26 PM     Profile for Spectre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Anybody care to comment on Flanker 2 now...?

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leafer
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posted 10-30-1999 10:10 PM     Profile for leafer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Turbo,

Yup, x-plane rocks. I love the thunderstorm and the sound of rain hitting the canopy in that sim. You can use it to practice IFR and so on. Well you can do that in Flanker too but...I won't go there. ;0)


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leafer
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posted 10-30-1999 10:16 PM     Profile for leafer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Barron,

I love WBs and played it for years, but have you tried Ace High? It's better than Warbirds (imho). I always felt that the depart in WBs was too much (machanical)and was there to make us believe the flight modeling. I could be wrong. :0)


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Aaron
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posted 10-31-1999 10:50 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I took a long leave of absence from flight sims, so I missed alot from JSF and EF2K to Hornet Korea, but for me the game that made me really feel like I was in the scene was Chuck Yeager's Air Combat. It wasn't perfect but man on some of the WWII missions I had a hard time keeping my eyes on the screen because I wanted to look over my shoulder to catch a glimpse of the guy on my 6.
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Haggart
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posted 10-31-1999 04:29 PM     Profile for Haggart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Any of you guys have IAF? If so tell me what you think about it. I have not bought any other jet sims because I was so turned off by the terrain in IAF. Are you supposed to see any enemy vehicles on the ground or not? Is this the kind of terrain you see in other jet sims?
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mbaxter
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posted 11-01-1999 01:58 AM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don't worry, IAF is not representative of most flightsims. The terrain in IAF takes the award hands down for the worst terrain ever done on a flightsim. I'm sure Pixel is very proud of this dubious honor.

I bought IAF, played it for 15 minutes, said "Yuck!" and promptly returned it. I've seen plenty of software-rendered sims (Super EF2000 for example) that look better than IAF's badly done 3D accellerated terrain.


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Haggart
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posted 11-01-1999 07:53 AM     Profile for Haggart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
thanks mbaxter.
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SPOT
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posted 11-01-1999 11:07 AM     Profile for SPOT   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Funny -after reading this forum I downloaded the demo of JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER and after fooling around with I would have to say it has the best terrain features of any sim. And the vehicles (tanks) that you have to attack look believable. The only bummer is the demo lasts 4 minutes. So you have to replay it several times to get a good look. I like the gameplay in IAF - from uphigh the terrain doesn't bother me - but upclose when flying low-level to avoid SAMs it is hard to get visual cues. Oh for an F-111 or A-6 (or A-10!)sim with level of terrain features of JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER. You really would have to play the demo or buy the game to see what I'm talking about. It really blows all the other sims away that I play as far as terrain.

Also in IAF the vehicles do move and are well rendered it's just A2G can be a bitch - visual cues for low level are hard due to the terrain engine they use

[This message has been edited by SPOT (edited 11-01-1999).]


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