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Author Topic: Modern sims = just c r a p!
Fredrik, Sweden

posted 10-16-1999 10:50 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dear sim (ore non sim) players:

First of all, I have to tell you how
tired I am on playing flightsims just
because of the looks of them. The one
and only flightsim with feeling is
the GSC F/A-18 Hornet. It uses only
vector graphics, but the gameplay
is so good, that you dont even care
about the graphics. Too bad the
Korea-versione doesnt support D3D
or OpenGL on the PC version.

Just compare this sim to for ex F22 TAW.
Well. We have the nice 800x600 graphics,
and some more things not to be found in
F/A-18 hornet. But the rest? C r a p.

Compare Janses WWII fighters with Micro-
prose EAW. You will find the same things
here. EAW doesn't have the jolly good
graphics, but who cares. It is far more
playable than WWII (which is probably the
most boring sim i have ever played).

The only thing I can say about the modern
sims I have played is:

Where is the feeling of being there, in
the the scenario. The feeling
is all gone. I am not going to spend my
hard earned money to look on 5fps high-
res pictures. I will probably download
some free 3D-pics (or r e a l photos) of
the modern planes of today instead.

I hope someone is thinking in the same
ways I do.


Fredrik, Sweden
(Maybe the Saab JAS is not much to come with but...hehe)

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Kurt Plummer
Member # 358

posted 10-16-1999 01:20 PM     Profile for Kurt Plummer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

I'm with you sir, one of my favourite games of all time was Tornado with simple, /clean/, f-a-s-t graphics and a superb mission editor to make me _work_ at success (moving up the ranks to command more planes).

But I think that between eye candy and 'plotlines' ala USNF (actors walkin' and talkin' in flight suits) I'd still rather the eye candy.

If you're going to go immersive, you OUGHT to grab an author who can help you FULLY develop a believable (theatre trouble spots/politics) plotline and a 'director' to shoot scenes that are as much panoramic as inter-personal.

Otherwise, the thing I miss most in modern games is the ability to steer one's fate with /tactics/ and the occasional bit of new-technology 'RHIP Reward' (an F-16 with EFE engine -only- for the Squadron CO for example...

Even in your WWIIF vs. EAW comparison, the wingcommands are there but there is practically ZERO fidelity with how the game robots react to them. And those /commands/!
Popup Windows ala AOTP that was clumsy and hard to use ten years ago! Bah!

I know of a certainty that if an /infantry/ sim was played the way we 'command' airsims there would be multipe hoots and hollerins' and more that a few "Get a Rope"s (New York /city/?!? .

But apparently, in the rush to get in the last bit of flight model and eye candy wow, it doesn't matter for a flight sim.


1. Control your wingman /initial positioning/ and then let them loose to be the bad dawgs they are. You don't micromanage a fight in real life, you DO do your best to deliver your formation into best-position to bag the other guys at minimum own-loss. That's the 'reward' for a flight leader: coming home with no Missing Man formation-hole letters to write.

So... Use formation commands that have Real Effects on the -way- that your people attack for a given XX geometry setup too.

In jets that's 90% detached support (beyond visual range maneuver), using prefixed ambush orbits and coattrail seductions.

In props it's how many guys are on the gunline and which target set the choose and VARIABLE burst-start/burst-length windows they pick to engage with.

2. Use a 'menu' system that also makes sense. Popup/Pulldown windows that get in my way make me MAD.

Especially when they are linked to number=x behaviour responses that are never the same between wingman/flight/squadron.

Heck, I don't have _time_ for that baloney!

What you WANT to have happen is
Key 1 Who? (Wingman Section Flight for each
Key 2 Do? (Formation/Attack Style for each
Key 3 What? (Help, Lead/Lag, Rejoin etc.)
` Send (Affirmative=click or GO Now!

_ALL ON A SINGLE COMMAND FIELD BAR_ at the bottom of the screen. One that is out of my way (so it doesn't just up and 'disappear' after a few seconds) and can therefore be preset to the instant-react option I want and /left there/.

I glance down, review my commands, and if I've made a mistake; adjust the ONE field that needs fixing rather than cycle through the /whole/ mess again.

And then I send it, as soon as I'm out of autopilot hyperspace.

We're not children to be 'taken to the flight sim movies'.

We should be given commands to wingman that WORK. And a means of employing them that is sensible and -quick- and stays out of the line of sight to the 'real world'.

Lastly, I'd /truly like/ to have the ability to control my prelaunch intercept 'style'.

Everything from moving bases and requesting resupply (Ooooh! Escort those C-130/Ju-52s to when I launch against an inbound B-17 raid and whether I go for an

A- Airborne Marshal (chance of getting
additional support from other units at a
radio beacon)
B- Height Climb (Less Chance of being
'under' the enemy escorts/sweeps at the
C- Far From Target (Earlier engagement. If
the target is obliterated without XX
arbitrary bomber losses /before/, you're
a mission failure. More time = more
kills but less fuel and height

Of course if the enemy turns his raid package and I have to give chase on a 500knot Su-24 in a 250nm configured Zulu F-16 I could easily end up 'out tanked' if not actually /outrun/ chasing the little monster down.

So maybe a prelaunch 'QRA' configuration screen for weapons and fuel and remote-basing should also be available.

It's the 'little things' which I DO mind because they provide me my own immersion-thru-effort sense (I'm effecting my own little part of the war).

A good story really helps but takes so much more effort to get 'right' that I'd prefer the company not try if they don't have the dollars to back it up.

Still waiting to do his first STOL landing in a Viggen...;o) Kurt Plummer

Posts: 672 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 376

posted 10-16-1999 05:22 PM     Profile for Robbster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That last post made my eyes bleed. ;O
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Member # 191

posted 10-16-1999 10:00 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Oh no here he goes again...
Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 275

posted 10-16-1999 10:05 PM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kurt, reading your posting here leads me to recommend that the next time you post, look fot the little blue HTML script on the left of the posting window. It says "UBB Code is ON". If you click it, you will see a bunch of instructions on how to insert italics, bold letters, clickable URLs - and some other stuff, I think. It will your make your excellent, if somewhat long, posts more fun to read. You /already/ are trying to suggest italics, and it works a little bit. Go for the real thing.

[This message has been edited by Envelope (edited 10-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Envelope (edited 10-16-1999).]

Posts: 2057 | From: Davis, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 335

posted 10-18-1999 02:28 AM     Profile for Thrasher   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

It's clear that Kurt likes to share his opinion(s) with us. So what if he makes his posts a little longer than we do..
I think that all of your complaints about his posts in total are longer than all of Kurt's posts.
I hate people who complain.

At least he has a lot more to tell than the rest of you.

Thrasher, 313th VFS

Posts: 139 | From: Wierden, Ov, The Netherlands | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 275

posted 10-18-1999 01:44 PM     Profile for Envelope   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm not complaining. I'm just pushing the BB technology.
Posts: 2057 | From: Davis, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
concerned simmer

posted 10-18-1999 03:43 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Here's my impression of Kurt "too long" Plumer:

Blah blah blah, but hey, blah blah blah and blah blah if blah blah blah<- Of course Blah blah- yeah<- blah blah! hey blah blah blah, blah blah. Yeah, bvr this, bfm that, yeah, aoa barcap rhino bitchin' betty sams agl ils jockitch yeah! get with it, your six, archer break left yeah, sierra hotel baby! blah blah blah blah.......

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Member # 565

posted 10-18-1999 03:59 PM     Profile for jgalante   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sheesh, you guys bitch more than my wife!
Kurt's posts tend to be very interesting to read; even if I don't understand everything he's talking about, atleast it gives me a chance to learn more! (God knows I need the help)
If you go to some sites there are like 0 new posts/conversations - guys should encourage new posts, they give me something to read when I'm supposed to be working!

Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 191

posted 10-20-1999 02:51 AM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes you're right let's get back to the subject. I agree with the premise of this topic. I too have found many of the latest flightsims to lacking something.

I can honestly say that the sims I've had the most fun with have been EF2000 and, oddly enough, Joint Strike Fighter. I've tried TAW, Falcon4, and many other recent sims only to lose interest or get fed up with them very quickly.

EF2000 is to me one of the most immersive sims ever made. I made its campaign even better by modifying the order or battle for the Russian and NATO forces so that you encounter a much wider variety of aircraft types in the game, thus making the campaign even more fun (at least for me) than it was already. BTW, if anybody wants to get the new OOB for EF2000, feel free to contact me by email.

JSF has the best graphics and sensation of speed of any sim ever made, period. I'm interested in USAF but the sense of flight in USAF just doesn't come close to JSF. But I suspect USAF will be fun because of it's mission builder and will become one of my favorites.

Anyway, I agree with Fredik's post - recent flightsims don't have the same "charm" as the old classics.

Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

posted 10-20-1999 01:50 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Do not mistake long for well written. While I agree that Kurt is both interesting and well informed, he suffers from lack of proper editing.
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Member # 269

posted 10-20-1999 02:09 PM     Profile for Talon XBMCX   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

You hit it on the head bro! EF2000 has got to be one of the most immersive simms Ive ever played ... and to top it off the multiplayer was great!!! I dont know how many times we had 6+ players connected and had nothin but a smooth ride the entire time. With the advent of RW and BC it really becomes immersive!!!

Average graphics will be forgotten if gameplay is great. EF2K had great playability ... over and over again.

Im willing to sacrifice a little eye candy for better gameplay ... anyone else???


Posts: 168 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 41

posted 10-20-1999 03:35 PM     Profile for Spectre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am ALWAYS in favor of better gameplay, better flight dynamics, fps and multiplay over eye-candy any day of the week!

Flanker 2 is in final comes the Sue

Posts: 900 | From: Colorado | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 71

posted 10-22-1999 03:25 PM     Profile for Ignacio   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
MBaxter, what is your email? I am interested in your OOB for EF2000. Thanks, if you can send it to [email protected], I'd appreciate it very much. Thanks.
Posts: 109 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Member # 634

posted 10-24-1999 03:02 PM     Profile for Box-man   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ignacio, I have posted a new topic on this forum for the EF2000 campaign enhancement, with a link to my site.


Posts: 74 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged

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