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Author Topic: B17II- Waste of Money??
Ruzbasan
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Member # 3836

posted 12-16-2000 05:14 PM     Profile for Ruzbasan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fellow Simmers,
My first impressions of B-17II are not good.I'm trying to like it but it does'nt give you immersion like EAW, CFS2, or F4. The following needs improvement:
1. No situational awareness possible when flying fighters. No way to target enemey planes unless you use padlock, which IMHO is hard to use.
2. Terrain Graphics are poor- terrain is worse then EAW. Up close AND from high altitude the ground looks cartoonish and very fake.
3. Aircraft graphics are not even close to CFS2 or Janes WWII Fighters. The aircraft look like they have been filled with air and were inflated. The B24s in CFS2 are much more detailed in exterior view.
4. The sound effects are horrible. What is the constant low explosions when their is no sign of Anti-aircraft fire? Where is the deep rumble of a B-17's four engines? Why is their no turret gun sounds when in exterior view when the guns are firing? Why do enemy fighters silently fly by in exterior view?
5. WHERE ARE THE HUGE BOMBER FORMATIONS???
WHY ONLY FIVE BOMBERS IN EACH MISSION!??!!! EAW has thirty or forty!!!
6. VERY LOW FRAMERATES!!
I am running a 64mb Geforce2 ultra in a 733mhz PIII machine set at 1024x768 16 bit, with graphics set at balanced and the terrain POPS UP!!! The graphics are actually jittery and pausing when you fly a fighter! At the current level of sim technology, this should be happening at all. CFS2 does not do this.
7. You can not quit a mission. When I hit Ctrl-Alt-Q, the damn mission won't stop! I have to do this many times before the program recognizes the key strokes.
8. The crash graphics are horrible!!! Crash a fighter and see!! Your screen turns into a yellow mess. Broken parts off of aircraft are plain polygons!! Not like in CFS2 or Janes WWII fighters.
Their had better be one hell of a patch for this "game".
Gary

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"Seek out the enemy! Do not ask how strong the enemy is, but where he is to be found." Soviet Fighter pilot motto


Posts: 26 | From: Middletown,CT, USA | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
ProzacPain
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posted 12-16-2000 05:21 PM     Profile for ProzacPain   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You sound like a whiner alright.
I'd say for a solution to your problems, first spend a few hours reading this board before you post your complaints, and i bet you will have solved 50% or so of your issues. Come back when you've calmed down and taken the cotton out of your ears and after you clean the mud off your glasses.

Posts: 68 | From: Jacksonville FL USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Judge
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posted 12-16-2000 05:47 PM     Profile for Judge     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
ProzacPain,

Did you even bother to read the original poster's message? If you followed your own advice and perused this board and the bombs-away.net forums you'll see that the problems he has with the game cannot be resolved. Namely:

1) poor graphics: it's a subjective opinion, but there are no fixes. You're stuck with the graphics the game comes with. No open architecture here;

2) texture draw-in: all users are experiencing this, even those on high-end systems;

3) small bomber formations: There is a hard-wired limit in the game of 18 bombers, 6 'real' with the remaining 6 or 12 (depending on what mode you run the game in) being 'ghosts'. There is no way to increase the number of bombers. The R&RDB file setting doesn't work;

4) sound effects: again, it's subjective but there is no way to improve them. The game and game data are not open architecture.

If you can provide URLs to posts that show how to improve these shortcomings, then do so.


Posts: 440 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
UPS
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posted 12-16-2000 05:47 PM     Profile for UPS   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ruzbasan:
2. Terrain Graphics are poor- terrain is worse then EAW. Up close AND from high altitude the ground looks cartoonish and very fake

May I remind you, this is not real life. It's a game. What do you expect? Computer programmers can't fully emulate real life.

If you thought that buying this game would let you experience, in every detail, what it was like to fly in a B-17 during WWII, you thought wrong.


Posts: 76 | From: | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
harrypat
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posted 12-16-2000 05:50 PM     Profile for harrypat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER
Posts: 58 | From: Quebec, Canada | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Blond_Knight
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posted 12-16-2000 06:06 PM     Profile for Blond_Knight     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
So let me see if I have this right.

First you lobby Wayward at every possible opportunity for as much realism/realistic appearance as possible to the point of being antagonistic....THEN you mock and belittle other players who bring up the same issue(s) once the game is released.
Did I get that right?

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See-Decide-Attack-Reverse


Posts: 1093 | From: Richmond Va - Capital of the Confederacy | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lucky_1
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posted 12-16-2000 10:16 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
He's got a point.

When new sims or games for that matter are released, we expect them to feature something new, something creative.

What has B-17 II offered that is ground breaking?

Large formations? Nope.

Excellent sound? Nada.

Outstanding terrain? Its good, but "older" games have better.

Perhaps its the FM, ground breaking? Hardly.

Man, this sim had so much potential. Well, I guess I'll wait for a patch, but there is just too much that one patch can't handle.

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"Do not needlessly endanger your lives, until I give you the signal." Dwight D. Eisenhower


Posts: 635 | From: Knoxville, TN. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lucky_1
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posted 12-16-2000 10:17 PM     Profile for Lucky_1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

[This message has been edited by Lucky_1 (edited 12-16-2000).]


Posts: 635 | From: Knoxville, TN. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
RSColonel_131st
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posted 12-17-2000 12:52 AM     Profile for RSColonel_131st   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Okay, here are ur points:

1. No situational awareness possible when flying fighters. No way to target enemey planes unless you use padlock, which IMHO is hard to use.

WTF is padlock hard to use? this are just two keys. I use it every time, and it works perfect. SA in EAW is not better for me than here, when I not use padlock in EAW, its also not good SA.

2.Terrain Graphics are poor- terrain is worse then EAW. Up close AND from high altitude the ground looks cartoonish and very fake.

Hhmm, thats ur opinion. compared to EAW, the terrain looks really cool for me, and dont forget, it is a actual map of europe, including all rivers and other landmarks, even inlcuding every small village...to make death reckoning navigation possiple. If u dont like the style, thats ur opinion, but it is certainly not worser than EAW.

3.Aircraft graphics are not even close to CFS2 or Janes WWII Fighters. The aircraft look like they have been filled with air and were inflated. The B24s in CFS2 are much more detailed in exterior view.

Again, thats ur opinion. I think, the detail of the planes, along with the chrome effect of unpainted steel, make this the best looking planes ever for me. DOT. Maybe u can us give 2 screenshots comparing CFS with B-17 so that we can decide ourself?

4.The sound effects are horrible. What is the constant low explosions when their is no sign of Anti-aircraft fire? Where is the deep rumble of a B-17's four engines? Why is their no turret gun sounds when in exterior view when the guns are firing? Why do enemy fighters silently fly by in exterior view?.

Okay, I'm also missing some sounds on exterior view...but the rest is AWESOME. Have u ever heard the schrapnell of the flak tickling against ur plane? or the howling sound of a dive in a fighter? Have u heard ur wounded crewmembers crying for help? Looks like u didnt listen enough.

5. WHERE ARE THE HUGE BOMBER FORMATIONS???
WHY ONLY FIVE BOMBERS IN EACH MISSION!??!!! EAW has thirty or forty!!!

18 Bombers in full mission. EAW has thirty, but thirty what? Of course not bombers of that detail. Each with his own damage model, and cleary visible damage on the structure and skin. Each with a hole where a bullet hit it. 6 with 60 AI guys working on the guns. For all that is damage calculated, and the graphics are there. U cant ask for 30 bombers in this detail-live with it.

6. VERY LOW FRAMERATES!!

Looks like u didnt read the posts carefull enough. Maybe u didnt notice that a stuttering with geforce cards is know, and will be adressed in the patch? It runs fine with other cards.It also runs fine on a lot of geforce systems. Nothing we can not fix.

7. You can not quit a mission. When I hit Ctrl-Alt-Q, the damn mission won't stop! I have to do this many times before the program recognizes the key strokes.

might be related to the geforce problem. okay, thats bad-patch will fix it.

8. The crash graphics are horrible!!! Crash a fighter and see!! Your screen turns into a yellow mess. Broken parts off of aircraft are plain polygons!! Not like in CFS2 or Janes WWII fighters.

hhhmm, u must be playing a different game. damage, explosions and parts ripped of are very detailed shown on my game. dont know what u where expecting, photorealism?

After all, a lof of ur statement is ur personal opinion, and there are many people, for example at www.bombs-away.net ,which will not share it. Next time u complain about the game, dont state ur opinion as fact. If u dont like graphics or soundstyle, that does not mean it is ultimate BAD for everybody. And after all, if u really dont like this game, u should take itm, bring it back, and continue to play CFS2.

No need to come here and scare people off from the game.



Posts: 310 | From: Austria | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
RSColonel_131st
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posted 12-17-2000 01:02 AM     Profile for RSColonel_131st   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Äh, for lucky_1.
U have some good questions, I dont know if u have the game or judging from other posts.

I will tell u what makes B-17II oustanding for me.

First, the idea. it is not one of thousand other WW2 flightsims. It is a bomber sim, including parts of role games and strategy. U can man .50 guns, u can aim the bombs, u can navigate, and u also can fly the plane. Far more, u can fly the fighters. This is amazing to me, it will take me weeks to learn all positions.

Second, the graphics, which are top notch. CFS2 is not bad, but IMHO B-17 Rulez. Have a look at the intro, at the point where the sun is glaring trough the damage hole in the vertical stabilizer. Aren't this good graphics?

Third, the sound. I dont know what u have listened to, but once u hear the scaring sound of flak, or the crying of a wounded crewman, u might change ur opinion.

Forth, terrain is oustanding, 'cause its a real map of europe u are flying above. What was the last WW2 sim where u where able to navigate for ur self using VFR.

just my personal opinion, though.


Posts: 310 | From: Austria | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mattius
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posted 12-17-2000 03:46 AM     Profile for Mattius   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ruzbasan needs to be shot! This game is in my top 5 ever!!!!!!!

Words cannot describe


Posts: 4 | From: Calne, Wiltshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged
redbaronace
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posted 12-17-2000 05:30 AM     Profile for redbaronace   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
.

[This message has been edited by redbaronace (edited 12-17-2000).]


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cobraj
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posted 12-17-2000 10:04 AM     Profile for cobraj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think we have all gotten too spoiled for superior graphics or something. i remember loving secret weapons of the luftwaffe, flying the b-17 missions that had.
i bought the game and run it on a pII 400!
voodoo3 192mb ram, set terrain for speed, tone down the details a bit, flew at least 10 missions no problem. Yeah I have a frame rate hit some time when fighters are around, and yes interiors are blurry, but compared to the first b-17, just take it for what its worth... i don't think the hardware is available yet to really a full immersion bomber simm..HMMMM maybe in the future running dual pentium 1gb cpu's with a gb of ram, with a 512mb graphics card, that would allow total immersion!!

Posts: 2367 | From: pahked just outside of Boston | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ruzbasan
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posted 12-17-2000 04:29 PM     Profile for Ruzbasan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ok...Ok...Let me clarify some things:
I will admit I did state my opinion.Isn't that one of the purposes of a "forum"? Maybe I should have worded my post as "Does anyone have any solutions to this...." That is my fault. I was just so let down when I booted up the game that I wrote a little too strongly.
However, by reading this forum, many, many simmers are not happy with B-17, not just me. The bugs in the game do not have work arounds because of the closed coding. This is Microprose's fault, not mine.
My purpose was not to discourage people from buying the game. I feel it is the obligation of every true simmer to put out the warning when a bomb hits the store shelves. Maybe game publishers will stop releasing unfinished games full of bugs. B-17 II had such promise, so much fanfare. Like everyone else, I waited patiently for the game. I could'nt wait to buy it. After all the fanfare, yes I did expect an outstanding simulation, far ahead of any two year old simulations. It's simple, Microprose did not deliver.
However, B-17 II does have some great innovations. For example, the ability to fly each position is great! But damage model is up to the visuals in Janes WWII fighters. That's not an opinion, that's just plain fact. When a wing comes off a fighter, do you see struts and parts of the wing sticking out like in WWII fighters, or just a plain polygon shape? In B-17II, I see just a plain polygon shape. Belly land a fighter in Janes WWII Fighters and compare the damage model to B-17 II. If you see damage on par with WWII fighters, please post a comparison screenshots of both sims side by side. It is inexcusable that a two year old game has better graphics then B-17 II.
With graphics cards as powerful as the GeForce 2 Ultra available, we should definitely expect more realism, not just gameplay. The aircraft graphics in CFS2 and damage model are way beyond the graphics in B-17 II. This is plain fact...no screenshots are even necessary.
About the sound effects, I discovered another interesting feature in B-17 II. Go to the waist gunner position and hit the compartment "c" key when the gunners are firing at passing fighters. By golly, I did'nt know that a fifty caliber machine gun has a built in silencer!!! The one saving grace of B-17 II was the internal compartment views of the crewmen. I'm sorry, but silent firing machine guns wrecks the immersion of the compartment view entirely. That's not an opinion, if your a true simmer, it's a fact! Another inexcusable game bug.
But besides all this, I have not given up on B-17 II. I will admit I have not played it enough. I will play it some more with an open mind. I will keep it on my hard drive with the hope that the graphic stutters and sound bugs will be fixed in the upcoming patch. Who knows, maybe Meatwater can come up with an excellent sound pack for the game, something at least as good as the engine sounds in CFS2. The game has great potential, let's hope some patches will save it.
P.S.- To the guy that said I should be "shot" for my post-Get off the Combatsim Forum! We don't tolerate rude posts here!

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"Seek out the enemy! Do not ask how strong the enemy is, but where he is to be found." Soviet Fighter pilot motto


Posts: 26 | From: Middletown,CT, USA | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Blond_Knight
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posted 12-17-2000 06:12 PM     Profile for Blond_Knight     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Aww Ruzbasan, dont let them get you riled.
Everytime a new sim comes out, there's always a disgruntled group(or is it always the same guys?) who are ticked that the sim isnt all they thought it would be, and take some misguided notion to attack anyone with a disenting view.

Love the sim, Like it, or dont like it; thats what this forum is here for. But if you dont like it, just say so and leave...dont hang around b!tching about it, berating those who do like it, guys who do that are just lonely looser's.

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See-Decide-Attack-Reverse


Posts: 1093 | From: Richmond Va - Capital of the Confederacy | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ruzbasan
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posted 12-17-2000 08:01 PM     Profile for Ruzbasan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Your right Blonde Knight. But I have to apologize to everyone for my first impressions. I just got done flying several missions and I have to say I was all wrong about this sim. I actually really enjoyed the missions. The graphics turned out to be very good and the flak bursts were outstanding. The sound bugs were there but I found myself really immersed. Ok...you guys are right...this game is really awesome!!! I just wish I could hit a target! That Norden bombsight is a challenge but one I look forward too. BTW, I also like the dark music during the briefing...it sets the mood and gets the blood pumping. I don't know why my first impressions were so far off but we all make mistakes. I gave the game a little time and it shines!!!
(Falcon 4.0 will have to wait I got a mission over Brest!)

Posts: 26 | From: Middletown,CT, USA | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. X
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posted 12-17-2000 11:15 PM     Profile for Mr. X   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think that the bullet holes were nice.


Posts: 73 | From: | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. X
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posted 12-17-2000 11:21 PM     Profile for Mr. X   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ruz what the hell do you need to apologize to a bunch strangers for sharing your first impressions?

These are people who, for whatever reason, likes the game. Some have a perverted lust for it too.

If I were you, I would remove any apologies you have made. You have every right to your opinion.


Posts: 73 | From: | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Moon Walker
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posted 12-17-2000 11:25 PM     Profile for Moon Walker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes but Mattius wants him shot for having an opinion. Does this bring back a little history or what. Talk about immersion.

[This message has been edited by Moon Walker (edited 12-17-2000).]


Posts: 62 | From: | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mr. X
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posted 12-17-2000 11:27 PM     Profile for Mr. X   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I really don't give a rats *** what mattius wants, it will never happen moon boy!
Posts: 73 | From: | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
RSColonel_131st
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posted 12-18-2000 02:56 AM     Profile for RSColonel_131st   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Glad u like it finaly. "give it some times" turns out again to be a good advise for the newcomers in this sim. also speaking for me, when I started, and just was able to man the guns and aim the bombs, it was soon boring. Now, since I can start engines and fly the plane, it is even more funny. And with all the fighters in there...
Posts: 310 | From: Austria | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
CavScout19D
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posted 12-18-2000 05:22 AM     Profile for CavScout19D   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Poor external graphics?? What the hell do you guys want? A picture? Real life video?
Posts: 138 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Shockwave
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posted 12-18-2000 09:02 AM     Profile for Shockwave   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
No complaints here, and I'm running this game on an aging systems (PI450, 128mbram, TNT2 Ultra 32mb). I've got the graphics set between detailed and balanced and do experience some exceptionally long load times between views...even some stuttering when there are lots of enemy fighters on screen. But IMHO this is a great game. Far from perfect but a great game. If you can deal with the shortcommings (at least until some of the issues are addressed in the patch), I would recommend it. I know I'm upgrading my box because of sims like this..

My $.02...


Posts: 33 | From: Jackson, NJ, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Saburo
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posted 12-18-2000 10:00 AM     Profile for Saburo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I went through the same phase of disappointment that others seem have when they first played this sim. The graphics didn't seem right, the B-17 was difficult to taxi, dirty windows obscured enemy fighters, long pauses between screens, and the complex key board interface. Sheesh! But similar to my initial reaction to MiG Alley, this sim is starting to show its stuff as you spend more time with it. This epic sim is dangerously addictive once you soldier on past your preconceived notions of what a flight sim should be like. THIS IS NO SIM, ITS A HISTORICAL DOCUMENTARY! The way you actually become concerned about the welfare of your crew, their success and safe return from the mission is quite an intriguing experience. And almost as much fun as flying skillfully just to blow stuff up!

System: Athlon [email protected], Gladiac GTS 32mb, 4.68, 256mb, IBM13gig/7200, Live Value sound, on a Abit K7 board w/via 4in1,

a hui hou!


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