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Author Topic: My views on Hasbro & B17II
Fokker
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posted 08-29-2000 09:21 PM     Profile for Fokker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I for one,was notbuying this game for multiplayer alone. I had wanted to explore the option later. What has really upset me is the failure of a substatial company to be able to produce a product to the origional specs and deliver. Is it so hard? The game at its core was multiplayer. If Hasbro was a car manufacturer or a computer manufacturer, we wouldn't buy a damn thing from them again. Falcon 4.0 should have place a bullet right between the eyes of Hasbro's game development wing. Falcon was the warning, bells and whistles should have sounded instantly. Gunship! was a game where consumers like ourselves should have laughed at even buying a pile of worthless code. When Ford produced the Pinto, did consumers stand by and watch it burn? No. I will buy B17II only because I want to personally take it to Hasbro along with a pile of other crap they have "coded" and burn it on the sidewalk infront of their corporate headquarters. What the hell is wrong with us? A company wants input from its consumers, then does the opposite? WTF? Someone needs to do something. I rose this issue with Rage develpoment. They produced an an rts "War of the Worlds", excellent, had a few bugs needed a patch. The manual said units could do certain things which in fact they could not. Waited, waited, WAITED! No damn patch! Rage issued a statement, they were not going to produce a patch. End statement. I paid fifty bucks for a product that was broken? And the maufacture wasn't going to fix it. Am I stupid? Is everyone that bought the game stupid? I paid some poor slobs wages only to get crap. I wanted to sue them. There are things in the manual in black and white that state how the product should run and react. Would you buy a car if it came equiped with an airconditioner but no switch to turn it on? No. If a manufacturer did that there would be hell to pay. Come on people lets wise up, this is out of hand. Is there nothing we as buyers can do? Are we helpless? If it were up to me I'd send every piece of crap game back with a nuke attached, or have a B17 carpet bomb the development complex.

Posts: 43 | From: Brownsville, PA, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
patrickcorbett123
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posted 08-29-2000 09:47 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You've got a good point. Computer games are just like any other industry. If someone were to produce another object that said it did `x' on the box and didn't, there would be hell it pay from consumer groups. Now, in the case of B17, we can't go much, since the product actually isn't released. However, if a game does say in the manual or box that it does stuff and it didn't, consumers should get refunds or fixes.

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Swampthing
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posted 08-29-2000 11:31 PM     Profile for Swampthing   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Bah, this whole thing stinks of the Gunshit fiasco if you ask me. It really feels the same too. Remember how when gunshit was being made they kept promising it'd be realistic this and realistic that etc etc etc and it was released and it got totally creamed and mutilated by reviewers and gamers alike? Then Hasbro says "Well look, flight sims don't sell, we tried again and now have definate proof so we're going to cancel the tank game" This is the same deal. I'm guessing wayward needed some extra time so hasbro says "nope, flight sims don't sell. Freeze the code now, fix any gigantic show stopping bugs and get this thing out the door so we can get some cash" Hell, i bet there's not even a patch for this game, and i bet it will be sorely needed. If there is a patch it'll be like the gunshit placebo patch.

I was VERY interested in this sim for quite awhile. I chose to think that hasbro wouldn't mess with it. I was wrong. There's no dynamic campaign and now no multiplayer. Sorry, but i'm not giving hasbro the satisfaction of getting any of my money on this one. If they want out of the sim business then good riddance, but they aren't lining my pockets with their buggy crap games on the way out.

Mark my words guys, buying B17 will be a major mistake. Hasbro will NOT support it with patches, so what you get out of the box is likely what you'll have 2 years from now.


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Spin Doctor
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posted 08-30-2000 09:13 AM     Profile for Spin Doctor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You guys are probably right for the most part. Hasbro in my opinion, is trying like crazy to ship everything it has comitted to previously as quickly as possible, hence cutting the multiplayer aspect. Even if it takes a while to remove the MP code, that's something they won't have to worry about in the final release. They may release one patch (if they even ship the game, which I personally doubt) but after that, if you're expecting ongoing support from Hasbro, then you are seriously deluded. Supporting old games does not make money, which is what Hasbro cares about. Actually, to be fair, they may not know how to provide ongoing support. They are a toy company. In the toy world, you make the toys, you sell the toys, the kid breaks the toys, you make new toys, ad infinitum. Support does not fit into this equation.

I believe that they want to get back to this philosophy, which is doable if you don't make complex, creative or deep games.

So as much as you optimistic chaps want to believe in Hasbro, time for a reality check. They got nothing against us personally. We just don't make them any real money. Not like Barbie Deerhunter Makeover 2 will.

------------------
Objects on your six may be closer than they appear...

Spin Dr.


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JG26_Frost
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posted 08-30-2000 01:10 PM     Profile for JG26_Frost   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
WHy in the flock did they ever get into the sim buis?? It boggles my mind, its like Pepsi saying they want to start a line of DVD players. See my post in the other thread, it voices my oppinions on the matter.

------------------
A story is told of a BUDS class standing at attention in front of a large sand berm. Suddenly one of the SEAL instructors quietly climbed to the top of the berm. There in full view of the class he shielded his eyes from the sun and stared out to sea searching the entire horizon from side to side. When he finished he walked down the hill and stood in front of the class."Does anyone know what I'm looking for?" he asked. No one replied, he paused before he spoke, "I'm looking for war."


Posts: 75 | From: Portland Maine USA | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
kverdon
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posted 08-30-2000 05:50 PM     Profile for kverdon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
JG26,

What you are missing is that Hasbro never got into the flight sim buis. They purchased Microprose primarilly to get the license to Civilization and Xcom. The problem for Hasbro was that Microprose already had contracts out to produce a number of flight sims. What Hasbro is doing now is simply getting out of those contracts any way it can. They don't give a SH*T about the sim users base so they don't care if they screw us over.

Kevin


Posts: 145 | From: Tigard, Oregon USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Robbster
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posted 08-31-2000 10:51 PM     Profile for Robbster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
B17II + CD Burner + EB's 10 day return policy = payback.
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Iain @ Wayward
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posted 09-01-2000 06:16 AM     Profile for Iain @ Wayward   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually it equals theft, and a slap round the face for the hard working people who spent almost three years of their life to date on this product.

Iain


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blit_ZEN
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posted 09-01-2000 12:11 PM     Profile for blit_ZEN   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Iain, can't people buy directly from wayward? to give you all the best return on the years of effort it took?

blitz


Posts: 440 | From: se penna, usa | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Iain @ Wayward
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posted 09-01-2000 12:52 PM     Profile for Iain @ Wayward   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Nope... That deal would be actively taking business away from our Publisher. We trust Hasbro to sell the game, distribute it, position it and market it.

Hasbro trusts us to make the game.

Iain


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krubo
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posted 09-01-2000 02:15 PM     Profile for krubo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
People who burn Game Cds are ass'. Put me down for "purchasing" 2 copies of this game. One for me and one for me unopened. Landmark game does not even begin to scratch the surface. Punk ass Robbster!!!
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Texican
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posted 09-01-2000 04:25 PM     Profile for Texican   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Iain @ Wayward:
Nope... That deal would be actively taking business away from our Publisher. We trust Hasbro to sell the game, distribute it, position it and market it.

Hasbro trusts us to make the game.

Iain


I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but seeing Hasbro and trust in the same sentence made me fall down laughing!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, please forgive me, no offense to Wayward, but those are definately two terms that shouldn't be used in the same sentence

Texican


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King Rat
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posted 09-01-2000 06:03 PM     Profile for King Rat     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Iain, who do you trust when items from published features are reneged at beta level code with explicit statements that said features will never be implemented. What about those for whom that info resulted in a decision to pre-order? What level of confidence do you expect people to have when fundamental program architecture decisions are being made a few months before scheduled release? How much support can we anticipate by way of bug fix patches from a publisher with a proven track record of little to none for similar programs, not to mention outright cancelations of promised titles?

I present these questions neutrally and rhetorically, though you may address them if you wish. I'm a Forty-Something software engineer at a simulation company who has been around the block a few times not to say in similar positions to Wayward at this time, so I can't get truely worked up over the maligned removal of multi-play. I certainly condemn calls for piracy by those who've never constructed anything of value in their lives and don't begin to understand some of the personal and ethical ramifications involved.

However, I can say the decision sprung on us regarding removal of multiplay has probably cost you a few sales on my part, because that was a defining feature to me. I'm not suggesting it can't still be a fine game for what it is. But it's not what I was going to purchase B-17 II for.

I would have been happy with a belated and/or reduced level of MP. Maybe pilot, navigator and bombardier per plane, leaving the gunners to the computer. At the very least it should have been possible to permit individuals controlling whole planes to link up in the large formations of the era. But no MP at all? And we first hear about this at a beta release press conference? I can't imagine this firestorm comes as a surprise to you.

Just some "for what it's worth" unorganized comments on a late Friday afternoon.

Keith Rogers

[Aside: the maner of MP removal makes me nervous in a professional capacity because I know first hand that backing code out is at least as difficult as splicing it in. I wish you luck in it.]


Posts: 275 | From: Utah, USA | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
jed
unregistered

posted 09-01-2000 07:48 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Iain @ Wayward:
Nope... That deal would be actively taking business away from our Publisher. We trust Hasbro to sell the game, distribute it, position it and market it.

Hasbro trusts us to make the game.

Iain


You left out "abandon it".


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Robbster
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posted 09-01-2000 08:49 PM     Profile for Robbster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"People who burn Game Cds are ass"

And so are companies who deliver a sub-standard product, and charge $60 for it. So there!


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Swampthing
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posted 09-01-2000 09:02 PM     Profile for Swampthing   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Trust, hasbro and this game are words that should not even come close to being uttered together with a straight face. Why? Can we TRUST that any bugs with the game will get patched once you have your money in hand? (sound of crickets chirping)

No? Didn't think so.


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Rowdy
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posted 09-02-2000 04:10 AM     Profile for Rowdy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
NO PATCH + NO ADDON = RELEASED SOURCE CODE?
IF THE GAME IS BUGGY, WHY NOT LET SOME OF THE MORE TALENTED FOLKS ON THIS FORUM FIX IT BY RELEASING THE CODE, OR SELL ( FOR CHEAP) ELEMENTS TO FIX IT. POSSIBLY DO OUR OWN MULTIPLAYER.
I THINK ROBBSTER IS FED UP WITH THE BULLSH_T THAT MOST, WELL, hASBRO HAS HANDED US LATELY. I DON'T BLAME HIM FOR THINKING THIS WAY. PERSONALLY, I WISH THEY WOULD RELEASE THE SOURCE CODE EAW SO THIS GAME CAN BE IMPROVED UPON. EVERYDAY THERE IS 1-3 NEW PEOPLE WANTING OR REDISCOVERING THIS GAME WHICH ONLY MEANS MORE MONEY FOR HASBRO. THINK ABOUT IT, IF B17II TURNS OUT REAL GOOD AND THEY RELEASE WAYS TO EDIT THE GAME, MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO PURCHASE IT WHICH MEANS MORE MOOLA FOR THEM. HASBRO HAPPY= CUSTOMERS HAPPY!!!
OH WELL... SO MUCH FOR THE DREAM WORLD...

Posts: 80 | From: Alberta, Canada | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Electricity
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posted 09-02-2000 07:52 AM     Profile for Electricity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Robbster, nobody is forcing you to buy the game. Also, you aren't owed anything. This is just your way of justifying being a petty thief.

Iain,
I hope you have what it takes to not get burnt out by the types of responses you will get in this forum.

I am certainly looking forward to B17II w/ or w/o multiplayer, and am very happy that you're team has raised the bar in the simulation industry to a new standard. I certainly hope B17 is scaleable to the casual crowd and your marketing team knows how to pull them in. It is a sim like this that can cause a craze in the young kids, and could really surprise the industry (which would spark many others to invest more in this type of software). American's are always looking for new things, and a sim with the type of realism B17 appears to have could really be a beginning of a new wave.

This is obviously wishful thinking, but not impossible. Much like the music industry, you can sometimes predict a hit that will make the top 10 and rarely ever predict a #1 hit (which many times comes from nowhere).

Again, I hope Hasbro is going to market B17 correctly, and doesn't just blow this one out and think of the short term gains as B17 could surprise them (again if it is marketed correctly).


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Siggi
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posted 09-02-2000 11:25 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fokker & Robster, right on.

I've pretty much burned myself out over at the BA forum, giving Wayward grief and otherwise venting over the whole MP issue and Wayward's failure to deliver on specific promises they had made to us as a community.

Just don't be taken-in by any reasonable sounding BS that any of Wayward's staff spout here. They have proven to be self-serving hucksters who's word is worth shite.

Iain, bite me. You need to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror and address your attitude problem. When you've done the dirty on people it might serve you well to admit it and make sincere apologies...sincere supposing you recognize that you're nobody special, just another developer working for a notably dis-honest publisher. One that's taken pride, it seems, in gutting a once fine dev/pub house; namely Microprose.


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Robbster
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posted 09-02-2000 01:53 PM     Profile for Robbster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Relax guys, my comments were made out of anger and frustration.

I don't condone piracy, yet on the other hand, I don't applaud companies who don't deliver on what they promise and leave us with a sub-standard product.

Is it considered "theft" for Hasbro to take the money of those who pre-ordered based on the proposed features, then to find out the most significant feature is omitted? If the consumer can cancel his pre-order then all will be ok, if not, then I'm not going to be overly worried about those who decide to pirate the game. I really could care less at this point.

The developers who worked hard on the game will be paid as they always have. It's Hasbro that I want to see suffer over this fiasco.


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TWINHIT
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posted 09-02-2000 02:21 PM     Profile for TWINHIT   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"HASBRO HAPPY= CUSTOMERS HAPPY!!!"

WRONG

CUSTOMERS HAPPY= HASBRO HAPPY!!!

RIGHT


Successful business/consumer relationships
begin with trust. Lose trust, lose business.

Simple as that.


Posts: 84 | From: | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
times2
unregistered

posted 09-02-2000 10:00 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
How dare them come out and say theft when they refuse to reply to any reasonable posts that are not to there liking . If they want people to buy there products then they could have the guts to come out and fight for it. That would include a promise to try and provide support after release. If I had spent three years of my life on a product I would not be simply bragging about it's greatness I would be making what ever sacrifices were needed to make it a success.

I have cancel my preorder due to their arrogance.


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Swampfox
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posted 09-02-2000 10:08 PM     Profile for Swampfox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Two wrongs do not make a right...Hasbro's heavy advertisment of Multiplayer, only to be omitted close to release time..vs. some that want to priate the software because they feel that's fair turn-around...both poor form...

A simple approach...if you find you disagree with Hasbro...simply do not buy (i.e. support) their products. But what I find amusing is...some like Hasbro's products enough to consider "stealing" them...hmmm


Posts: 49 | From: SC, USA | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
AndyHill
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posted 09-03-2000 09:16 AM     Profile for AndyHill   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Piracy sucks. Iīd really like to see Wayward rewarded for their efforts and Iīd like to play a superb game called B17 2. Sadly, that might not happen. We all know what Hasbro does to flight sims.

To determine how seriously things are going wrong an important question needs to be answered.

Who owns the rights to the source code? Can Wayward employees just go to another publisher and make B17 3 (B17 2 patched and multiplayable)?

If Hasbro in deed can sack the project, they will. This is going to be Falcon4 all over again. However, F4 is doing better than ever right now. Thatīs why Wayward might need a plan B. If someone robinhoods the source code, B17 2 WILL rise to great glory one day (possibly with unofficial support from Wayward). Hasbro might be prepared for that this time, so someone better get a safety copy of the code before itīs too late?

Poor Wayward just donīt seem to realize that good game designers donīt have dreams of flying. To be succesful and achieve the high Hasbro standards, one must dream of only making money, lots of it!

Andy


Posts: 91 | From: Oulu, Finland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
times2
unregistered

posted 09-03-2000 09:54 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Do you really believe that Wayward doesn't know more about the gaming industry than you? If that is the case then I agree with the poor Wayward thing all the way. When Wayward comes out and says they are sorry they entered into a contract that did not provide for support after release then I will feel sorry for them. First they tell you you can't blame Wayward because it's a business deal, then they tell you you can't blame Wayward because they are developers not Businesmen, you can't have it both ways.

Support the people who support their work.


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DM
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posted 09-03-2000 04:25 PM     Profile for DM   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well I've not read this forum for a couple of weeks now but it seems everyone has angry issues to discuss.

As I've said several times before nothing on the planet will stop me from buying B-17 II (with the possible exception of Hasbro ) and while I wasn't planning to make much use of MP I'm still sorry to see it go. To tell the truth I'm more sorry to see the dynamic campaign going, but that's just my opinion and I'm aware that the longevity of the game depends greatly on the MP.

King_Rat... I also work in development so I also had a few concerns about removing code already wired into the product, but then I thought that the simplest & most trouble-free way to do this is simply hide the MP interfaces, thus leaving the (possibly flawed ) MP code where it is. It may yet be possible to reverse the process with some unofficial patch from Wayward.

Hope: the indestructible weed of the human heart. One of my favourite quotes.

As long as the sim is a sim & not an arcade experience I suppose I'll be happy.

------------------
"They might look the same, but they don't taste the same."


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AndyHill
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posted 09-05-2000 12:16 PM     Profile for AndyHill   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
WHAT!?!?!?!? Dynamic campaign going??!?! I havenīt read these forums enough, I see. Well thereīs something positive about this as well; losing MP doesnīt mean a thing anymore...

And I donīt know how much wayward know about gaming business, but I just read that theyīre leaving Hasblow. It means that B17 2 is the biggest disappointment this year for me, but at least thereīs hope for better future.

Andy


Posts: 91 | From: Oulu, Finland | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
I forget
unregistered

posted 09-07-2000 05:58 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TWINHIT:
"HASBRO HAPPY= CUSTOMERS HAPPY!!!"

WRONG

CUSTOMERS HAPPY= HASBRO HAPPY!!!

RIGHT

Successful business/consumer relationships
begin with trust. Lose trust, lose business.

Simple as that.


Or is it?

( HASBRO HAPPY = CUSTOMERS HAPPY!!! ) = ( SUCCESSful company ( [Read Hasbro] );

( CUSTOMERS HAPPY= HASBRO HAPPY!!! ) = (
financial hardship [Read Microprose] );

Companies exist to be in business and they usually tend to be in business for themselves, not for you.


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172ndBodyBag
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posted 09-07-2000 07:26 PM     Profile for 172ndBodyBag   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Ian if hasbro trust wayward to produce the product fine, but what about the possible consumers? Can they trust you to produce on going support for any glitches or bugs? I don't agree with piracy but if you are going to give a person a half assed product why would the consumer not have the right for a total refund? If anyone was to burn B17II and got caught you would go after them no doubt. The way i see it is at least Firestone is giving refunds or replacements for it's faulty tires. At least they are giving something back. Sure it is possible the people can trust you but sure as hell can not trust hasbro. I can see the writing on the wall. Wayward did there job producing the product but, i have seen it before with some software companies and there is jack for support and Hasbro is #1 for screwing the consumer. As i posted on another website if Ibeta did not continue to fix the problem plagued Falcon 4 even after the 1.08us.exe was done and Hasbro the software would be a waste of money. But thanks to Ibeta Falcon 4 is Great now. What about the people who pre-paid for a dynamic game that was suppose to be? Is that not faulse advertising? I hope you sleep good at night knowing that your product will be less then successful. Many of online squads had planned on getting B17II and you can count on at least a min of 8 or 10 people per squad to but the game. No guess what you have lost thousands of dollars of revenue. If Hasbro can commit to something get the hell out of the industry.


Posts: 128 | From: | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
[email protected]
unregistered

posted 09-08-2000 05:44 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As far as I am aware, anybody who buys a PC game, and finds that it doesn't perform as the packaging claims it will, doesn't load, or is BTF can return it to their retailer for a full refund / store credit (that bit depends on the retailler, not the developer!).

Piracy is a crime. I suspect that if people could purchase a "Blank Chassis" for Ģ400 and "duplicate" a brand new car, they'd be finding lots of moral reasons why car companies "screw the little guy" and "overcharge for shoddy products".

Your right, as a consumer, ends with not paying out your hard earned money. You never have the right to get something for free, because you feel it doesn't live up to its full expectations. If a product is so good that you HAVE to have it, despite its flaws, then it is good enough to pay the money for!


Customer Service is something best performed by a multi-national company with an existing Customer Support infrastructure. Hence Customer Support being the job of the Publisher, not the Developer.

As far as patches go. I don't know the full details, so I can't tell you any more. For sure, we won't find ALL the problems in Beta. I would expect that we'd patch to fix any show stoppers that come to light a reasonable time after release. Again, it would be Hasbro's responsibility to flag those issues for us, and their responsibility to distribute any patches.


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The Biss
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posted 09-08-2000 06:14 AM     Profile for The Biss   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As far as patches go. I don't know the full details, so I can't tell you any more. For sure, we won't find ALL the problems in Beta. I would expect that we'd patch to fix any show stoppers that come to light a reasonable time after release. Again, it would be Hasbro's responsibility to flag those issues for us, and their responsibility to distribute any patches.

Translated: Forget about it!


Posts: 141 | From: Wake Forest, NC 27587 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged

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