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Author Topic: Tanks
BirdShot
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Member # 5993

posted 12-01-2000 02:42 PM     Profile for BirdShot   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

Just curious - is the German Leopard Tank any good compared to the M1, the Challenger, etc.?
I am more knowledgeable in aircraft...

Posts: 212 | From: Portsmouth, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Akulashaker
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posted 12-01-2000 05:46 PM     Profile for Akulashaker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The "Leopard" brand spans an entire family of batle tanks, broadly divided into two main versions:

1. Leopard-1 and variants: roughly equivalent to M-60A1/A3, Chieftain, Merkava-1/2 and T-72A/B.

2. Leopard-2 and variants: analogous to M-1A1/A2, Challenger-1/2, Merkava-3 and T-80/T-90.

This account is deliberately kept simple, of course. A detailed analysis of the subvariants (especially of the "-2" genre) and their distinctive capabilities are easily the subject of a very thick book.

Have a word with Ssnake in the "Armor" forum if you feel hungry for more

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The Europe-88 Project: World War III in Germany
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Posts: 488 | From: Greece | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Flip
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posted 12-01-2000 07:44 PM     Profile for Flip   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Early Leopard Is had slightly thinner armor than the M-60s but were faster.

I recall reading an old Herald Tribune article of Dutch Leopards (1A4 ?) in successful action against Serb armor. It was no contest.


Posts: 150 | From: | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Akulashaker
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posted 12-02-2000 04:42 AM     Profile for Akulashaker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Flip:

I recall reading an old Herald Tribune article of Dutch Leopards (1A4 ?) in successful action against Serb armor. It was no contest.

"against Serb armor"???? AFAIK, there was no direct tank-battle confrontation between NATO and Serb forces. Care to enlighten me?

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The Europe-88 Project: World War III in Germany
www.geocities.com/akulashaker/E88/


Posts: 488 | From: Greece | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jussi Saari
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posted 12-02-2000 04:49 AM     Profile for Jussi Saari   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Akulashaker:
"against Serb armor"???? AFAIK, there was no direct tank-battle confrontation between NATO and Serb forces. Care to enlighten me?

He probably means the incident where the Serbs tried an RPG ambush against a Leo-1 -protected relief convoy, but got clobbered themselves by the Leos. I've never heard of any tank battles involving Leos either.


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Kilo200
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posted 12-02-2000 03:14 PM     Profile for Kilo200   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The best tank in the world is probably the Leopard 2A4. It is as good as or better than the M1A1 in every area except a few, notably acceleration. The M1A1 also runs hotter because of its gas turbine engine, making it easier to spot, or too lock on to when using thermal imagers.
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Akulashaker
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posted 12-02-2000 05:20 PM     Profile for Akulashaker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
One-on-one, the best MBTs in the world are probably the M-1A2 and the Leopard-2A6.

There. I said it.

Come on! Where's my cheque from GDLS and Krauss-Maffei already?


(although the Frenchies might too have a winner with the Leclerc)

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www.geocities.com/akulashaker/E88/


Posts: 488 | From: Greece | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rosco
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posted 12-02-2000 08:16 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm rather partial to the LeClerc, it's not quite as well armored as most of the other {mostly heavier} top contenders but it is more agile and packs a deadly punch with its new longer barreled 120mm cannon. Where it really stands out though is when it comes to it's vetronics suite.

The combination of its powerful L55 120mm and advanced fire control system reportedly give an effective range advantage of 700 meters over the M1A2, while allowing the leClerc greater freedom of maneuver while still remaining accurate.

LeClerc even reportedly has a degree of stealthiness built into the design, being the first AFV designed with a low IR signature and RCS from the outset.


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
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posted 12-03-2000 02:54 AM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

RCS and heat signature reduction would seem to give it a pretty good edge in a fast paced meeting engagement....

It would seem that in the next 10 years or so, stealthy armor vehicles will start to show up in the wish lists of the larger armies. I remember a while back that the UK asked for proposals for a stealthy armored recce vehicle, and I think they wanted a track instead of wheels.

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Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lytiwheedle
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posted 12-03-2000 09:14 AM     Profile for Lytiwheedle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hmm does anyone know if the Challenger2 is any good? It should be, because of the Chobham Armor, that the Leopard and the LeClerc do not have. But I have no idea really...
Posts: 19 | From: Luxemburg | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rosco
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posted 12-03-2000 02:40 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Challenger 2 is a little slower than the others and it's main gun has a slower rate of fire and slightly inferior performance against other tanks but is reputed to be the world's best protected tank and has a good reputation overall.

In Desert Storm, several of the older {less armored} Challenger 1's were struck by "friendly" American 120mm DU sabot rounds without ill effect...

The LeClerc and Leopard 2 {and others} use Chobham-like armor, which achieves very similar results.


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
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posted 12-03-2000 06:28 PM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have heard that the RO 120mm gun is considered substandard in both accuracy and longevity (ruined after just 100 rounds) when compared to the German original gun. The Brit army wanted to refit them with the German one, but MoD refused, and this shortcomming was a primary motivator for buying the WAH-64 Longbow and RPV systems.

Please understand, though, that all of the above regarding the barrels was heard by me third-hand rumors, may be wrong, and I have no contacts inside the British Armored corps to confirm any of it.

If anyone thinks this is wrong, remember that the worst rifle design in recent history was the L85/SA80 LSW80, and instead of buying proven systems off the shelf to replace them, they have gone ahead with a costly and questionable upgrade, to be done by HK in Oberndorf. I doubt HK wants their name attached to this project, as it will not likely improve the rifle, but they are under threat of being sold by RO to a new owner, and are not in a possition to refuse contracts.

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Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rosco
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posted 12-03-2000 07:47 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rick, no German gun has ever served with the Challenger series {or any other UK tank AFAIK} the RO 120mm rifled gun dates back to the Chieftain. I've heard that the CHARM is very accurate but does indeed suffer from rapid barrel wear due to it's rifling, whereas it's smoothbore competitors avoid this problem. They stuck with rifling as it allows the use of versatile HEP ammo {High Explosive Plastic} something denied to smoothbores.
Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
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posted 12-04-2000 02:21 AM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rosco, thanks for refreshing my memory about the rifling!

I never said that the UK ever had a German gun (could you imagine the outcry from vets!!!). I should have said that SOME soldiers in the British army WANTED to re-arm their tanks with the Rein-metal 120smoothie, but I did say that the MoD refused to do so. I had forgoten that the RO used rifling, and that it's HEP was the reason.

I believe part of the problem for the RO gun was due to metals being not as durable as the German gun. I'm not sure, but I suspect that the German gun may be cold-hammer forged, just like today's assault rifle barrels. Hammer forged barrels tend to wear quite well for 5.56 auto weapons, particularly if chrome-lined (barrel heat for 5.56 is pretty difficult to manage for designers, look at the AR-15,CAR-15,M4 and how the handguards have been changed many times to allow for better heat control and ventilation).

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Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

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