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Author Topic: SAM's
tjmax
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posted 06-22-2000 06:10 PM     Profile for tjmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If SAM's travel at Mach 3 how can fighter pilots see and avoid them?
Posts: 43 | From: Spanish Fort, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Nick Kula
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posted 06-22-2000 06:35 PM     Profile for Nick Kula     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Radar warning recievers can tell the pilot the position of radar guided missiles, which are evaded with electronic counter measures that send out electronic interference to confuse the radar tracking him and chaff which create new targets for the missile to follow.

An infared guided missile cannot be detected except by sight. Infared missiles usually have short range and can be confused with flares. Pilots often fly above the range of infared guided missles.


Posts: 33 | From: Frankfort, IL, US | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rosco
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posted 06-22-2000 07:42 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Some SAMs travel faster than Mach 3, the smaller and larger missles of the fearsome S-300 {SA-10} system can hit Mach 6 and Mach 8 respectively!

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"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Storm
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posted 06-22-2000 08:43 PM     Profile for Storm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Most of the time, when the SAM is fired the RWR sounds off and gives a direction on the scope. Using that, the pilot can visiually scan for the upcoming missile, prior to it leaving it's booster stage. After that, then the missile will go into it's MACH flight, but is easily beat, as it cannot follow most maneuvers, while going so fast, and is seen. Hope it helps.

Storm

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"When Gorillas fly, Migs die!" 58th F.S.


Posts: 606 | From: Crestview, Florida USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
JFA
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posted 06-22-2000 11:23 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
How quickly does the missile decelerate once the motor burns out (presemably a bigger issue for SARH and ARH missiles than IR missiles). Although, I suppose, once the motor burns out, something that was hard to see to begin with becomes yet harder to see.

A related question would be, "is missile padlock in sims unrealistic?" Would a real pilot attempt to acquire the missile visually or would he or she simply rely on the RWR or TWS displays to avoid it?


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tjmax
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posted 06-23-2000 08:40 AM     Profile for tjmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
but what im trying to say is, how can a plane even have time to get away from a SAM. The Sam is going like mach 3 and the plane is only going about 800? Without ecm
Posts: 43 | From: Spanish Fort, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Whistler
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posted 06-23-2000 09:41 AM     Profile for The Whistler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
All AAm and SAMS go faster than the planes. How else would they ever hit them? Pilots are trained on tactics to spoof missles.
Posts: 1736 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada [email protected] | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
SAM
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posted 06-23-2000 11:42 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi there.

tjmax, just try any flight sim like Falcon 4 or Jane's F/A-18 and try to avoid them. It's simulated well enough to give you a good understanding of how real pilots go about avoiding SAMs, I believe. Just because the missile is traveling 3 times the speed of the plane, doesn't mean the missile can get to the plane in an instant.


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Skoonj
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posted 06-23-2000 12:21 PM     Profile for Skoonj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
When a SAM is fired it is guided to a point in space where it is calculated the target aircraft will be on arrival of the missile. When a pilot sees the SAM, he makes hard maneuvers designed to make the missile guidance recalculate the intercept point. The hope is that if that intercept point is changed sufficiently, close enough to the missile, that the SAM will not have the G-force authority to fly to the newly computed intercept point. It will then overshoot the target.

Pilots know SAMS are faster than their aircraft, so outrunning one isn't really an option.

Skoonj

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Excelsior, Fathead!
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Posts: 541 | From: Naples, Florida, United States | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
1
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posted 06-23-2000 12:25 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I beleive his main question was how can a pilot see a object the size of a a-a missle traveling at mach 3 or higher with his eyes only.
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Skoonj
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posted 06-23-2000 01:55 PM     Profile for Skoonj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
There's usually a smoke trail.

Skoonj

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Excelsior, Fathead!
--Jean Shepherd



Posts: 541 | From: Naples, Florida, United States | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jussi Saari
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posted 06-23-2000 01:57 PM     Profile for Jussi Saari   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 1:
I beleive his main question was how can a pilot see a object the size of a a-a missle traveling at mach 3 or higher with his eyes only.

Well, it depends. Typicall the pilot would track the end of the smoke trail, which is easy enough with the older generation of SAMs like SA-2 or SA-3, which had very long-burning sustainers (somewhere in the region of 20+ seconds) that made the missiles easy to see. After rocket burn-out, the SAM becomes considerably more difficult to see, but the said old-generation missiles were also fairly large and with their large fins they'd also be rapidly decelerating, so one could still see them. Plus, after burnout the SAM would have less than 10s of effective flight left, so tracking them with Eyeball Mk.1 was easy enough. (Source F-4/105 vets from SEA and SA-3 stats and live firing video from our army.)

With newer SAMs however there is a considerable difference. They're much smaller, much faster, rockets produce less smoke, and most importantly, they very often use a very short-burning but high-impulse rocket to accelerate them to hypersonic speeds, and being aerodynamically better and with often twice the peak velocity of the old-generation SAMs, they can coast most of their way. The cold truth is that you pretty much can forget about tracking the SAM with eyes then. (According to a person who teaches this stuff in USAF, missile avoidance against SA-10/11/12/Patriot class SAMs is in practise simply decoy and g's without even attempting any fancy maneuvers or tracking it with eyesight.)

The short-range stuff is also another situation altogether. The more modern SHORADS systems like Rapiers, Rolands and VT-1 have VERY short-burning rockets that accelerate the SAM to around 1000m/s within the first 1km of flight with a low-smoke, high-impulse rocket, and the rest 5-10km or so of its flight the SAM coasts. The low-smoke means practically zero smoke for the best of them, and being very small seeing the incoming missile is practically impossible, not a chance. MANPADS rockets burn a little longer and with a little more smoke since the small size means that you can't compromise rocket impulse and kinematic performance for any luxuries like low-visibility, so typically you'd get about 2.5 seconds worth of nice high-visibility white smoke from a Mistral/Stinger, and a clearly longer smoke trail from a Strela-2/3 or Igla. And again you can forget about tracking the SAM after rocket burn-out, even though it's slower than the SHORADS class it's simply far too small to be seen at a useful distance.

So to sum up, normally you'd be tracking the smoke trail, and after rocket burnout you can track it only if it's big, slow, and close enough.


Jussi

[This message has been edited by Jussi Saari (edited 06-23-2000).]


Posts: 249 | From: Lappeenranta, Finland | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Tornado
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posted 06-23-2000 01:58 PM     Profile for Tornado   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
At what ranges are SAMs normally fired?
Posts: 61 | From: New England | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Jussi Saari
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posted 06-23-2000 02:42 PM     Profile for Jussi Saari   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JFA:
How quickly does the missile decelerate once the motor burns out (presemably a bigger issue for SARH and ARH missiles than IR missiles). Although, I suppose, once the motor burns out, something that was hard to see to begin with becomes yet harder to see.

Depends much on the missile. The small MANPADS decelare pretty fast since their barrel-rolling flight path practically means the missile is pulling g continuously, big-finned SA-2/3 will also decelerate pretty fast, but newer ones keep their speed pretty well. For some idea of decelerations involved, a Patriot burns 11s for about 1500..1700m/s peak velocity and has a range of about 70km, a VT-1 will burn (IIRC) less than 2s for about 1200m/s and has a range of 12km, and a Stinger burns out at around 700m/s after about 3s burn and runs out of oomph at 5km or so. The smaller the missile, the more drag per mass unit and thus faster deceleration.


Jussi


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tjmax
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posted 06-23-2000 07:37 PM     Profile for tjmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
i thought that the pilots wouldnt be able to do anything since the very high speed of the missiles
Posts: 43 | From: Spanish Fort, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
SAM
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posted 06-23-2000 08:59 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Mach 3 is approximately 2300mph. That's 38.33 miles per minute, and .638 miles per second. Now let's say a missile traveling at mach 3 is fired from ten miles. The missile would take more or less (depending on whether the aircraft is flying towards or away from the SAM) 15.7 seconds to reach its target (10/.683=15.7). Fifteen seconds is a significant amount of time. If it doesn't seem like it, just try counting to yourself up to 15. Seems a bit longer, doesn't it? Within this time, the aircraft can perform its evasive maneuvers
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