my profile | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
»  COMBATSIM.COM Forum Archive   » Real Military Discussions   » Air Defense, Weapons, Platforms   » What rifle is this?

   
Author Topic: What rifle is this?
LeadHead
Member
Member # 184

posted 06-10-2000 10:40 AM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
http://www.users.wineasy.se/mags/bassak/bilder/m16.jpg

The page where I got the link said M-16A2 but it looks a bit short, not?


Posts: 775 | From: PiteŚ, Norrbotten, Sweden. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tailspin
Member
Member # 86

posted 06-10-2000 10:49 AM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That looks like the CAR-15. A compact version of the M-16 with a telescoping stock and a 10in.(I think)barrel. Used for special OPS and originally intended as an "Officers model" type carbine.

------------------
Joke 'em if they can't take a....


Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Kilo
unregistered

posted 06-10-2000 05:19 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Not sure if its a CAR15. The only CAR15s ive seen have the A1 style triangular grip instead of the A2. The flash suppressor on the end also doesnt look like the CAR15 version. It could be an upgraded version of the CAR15 though, but im not sure...
IP: Logged
Tailspin
Member
Member # 86

posted 06-10-2000 10:16 PM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hmmmm....don't think I have ever seen a CAR with a triangular forend. Any I've seen have the round ribbed forend. The civilian versions have a long flash supressor to meet minimum length requirements. I do agree that the supressor on this rifle doesn't look like the CAR.

------------------
Joke 'em if they can't take a....


Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
Member
Member # 172

posted 06-11-2000 12:40 AM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That is indeed a CAR-15. The one in the picture is the 11.5 inch barrel, the most common "shorty" that has been made for military use. The civie CAR has 16 inch in the US, due to US laws.

The shorty's did actually have a few that had triangular handguard (Armalite's original shorty had a cut forend and a regular butt that was cut down. Look weird or cool, depending on your mood. Also LaFrance Custom has an M-16K which looks nearly identical), but all of the production shorty's have the rounded style that was later adopted in extended form for the A2 and all versions made today.

Strength and heat protection and ventilation were the main reasons for the newer round style, but it's also much more comfortable in my book.

------------------
Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
Member
Member # 172

posted 06-13-2000 01:30 PM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry, we should have explained: the CAR-15 is a short barreled M-16, with a telescoping stock, so the caption is not entirely wrong. In fact, by regular news standards for weapon recognition, that's pretty good...

Also, the camera man may have been told by an ignorant soldier.

------------------
Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Dan.
unregistered

posted 06-13-2000 03:30 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rick,

Could you explain the difference between the CAR-15 and the M4?

You would do better than I....

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Dan


IP: Logged
LeadHead
Member
Member # 184

posted 06-13-2000 03:31 PM     Profile for LeadHead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Just for the record, I do know what a CAR-15 is.

And no, it wasn't from the news, it was from an unofficial site about "BasSšk", the Swedish Royal Navy's base security units. You know, those guys supposed to run around in the archipelago hunting sagotagers using dogs trained to smell Spentnaz toes.

And not only dogs by the way. AK5s with SUSAT (?) sights and M203s (not necessarily on the same weapon though) and Ksp90s (FN Minimi) as well.

Just in case anyone wonders about our whacky designations, "AK" means "Automatic Carbine" ("AutomatKarbin" in Swedish) and "Ksp" means literally "Bullet Sprayer" or "KulSPruta". That's one descriptive designation if any.

The reason I wondered was because the caption specifically said "M-16A2".

------------------
Lead-Head's Simulation Site:
http://fly.to/lead-head


Posts: 775 | From: PiteŚ, Norrbotten, Sweden. | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
Member
Member # 172

posted 06-14-2000 01:59 PM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dan, CAR-15 barrel has a rifling twist of 1-12", intended for all civie ammo and 55grn ball. CAR-15 "A2"'s are more modern civilian (like the last 15 years, as opposed to 70's and early 80's), and use the same twist (usually, anyway) as the M-16A2 SS-109 standard, which is 1-7". 1-9" would do the same job except tracers in cool/cold weather will not fly straight at all.

The M-4 is basically the same thing, but a few changes: the barrel is the first nato "m-16" weapon with a 1-9 twist, the handguard looks the same as the past ones, but has even better ventilation and heat protection, as well as strength.

The barrel is 13.5 " long, this apparently is the optimum for shorter barrels (always a tradeoff in shortness of weapon VS velocity, which is critical for 5.56). The barrel is heavy at the muzzle, but contoured light under the handguard, and also has a mounting groove for the forward mount of the M203.
This M4/M203 combo is very popular with the USN Seals, probably mainly due to experiences with very similar combos used in Nam by SOG and Montagnards. It gives tons of firepower for a resonable weight and ballance. I think the SEALS also use teflon coated magazines for the M4, to help prevent abnormal rusting due to conditions.

The M4 also has a different feed ramp/locking colar, in that the angle is 2 degrees changed due to the shorter buffer.

There is a model that has a flattop, (most usefull IMHO), allowing for nightscopes and so on. Also, many companies already have tons of addons/retrofits for them that also work for pretty much any AR-15 pattern rifle.

The extractor spring may also have a rubber washer added, but I'm not sure if this is standard or a retrofit for one unit.

------------------
Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Dan.
unregistered

posted 06-14-2000 03:04 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rick,

Thanks, I was aware of the difference in the 223 rounds, interesting history to that.

I am in the process of procuring a short barrel, XM177 flash hider upper (M4-type, Bushmaster manufacture) for a standard lower (solid stock to be replaced with collapsing). The lower was intended for a full length rifle, manufactured by Bushmaster. Will I need to change the buffer?

Thanks in advance;

Si Vis etc

Dan


IP: Logged
Slickster1
Member
Member # 4991

posted 06-16-2000 01:47 PM     Profile for Slickster1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey fellas. Back after the 2 week National Guard thing.

Seems like the extra length flash supressor is to give enough room to allow the gas to build up enough pressure to operate the thing. I read a book about a LURP guy early in the war that was very frustrated by the USA not having a good light weight weapon. At this time the M-16 was suffering its jamming problems. The M-3 climbed too badly, plus the weight of 45 ACP rounds was a killer. Forget the M-14. The guy used an M-2 carbine some.

He decided to take a CAR-15 and switch out the flash supressor with a regular, shorter M-16 flash suppressor. Result? A single shot weapon. Not enough back pressure from the short barrel/flash supressor to cycle the weapon.

------------------
Rick "Slick" Land


Posts: 121 | From: Fayetteville, AR USA | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
Member
Member # 172

posted 06-17-2000 10:02 PM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dan, you will keep the same buffer assembly, if you are not changing the rear stock. As I understand it, that one is more reliable anyways, as the telescoping stock/buffer has less distance to prevent a BOB stoppage (bolt over base of cartrige, resulting in a failure to chamber).

Now, keep in mind I'm Canadian, and I am not completely aware of your laws, but beware Pre/Post ban combos, as they could get you in hot water (I believe if the flash hider is welded, not threaded, onto a post-barrel, it stays post-ban, but you should check that yourself, if it matters to you). Aside from that, it should work fine.

You should be aware that there are no real XM177 hiders on the market, though, as the real deals on real XM177's were actually constructed similar to a suppressor (I think they were welded or cast though), for exactly that purpose: make it short and handy, but reduce the muzzle blast back down to regular M-16E1 levels (yes, there were E1's, I think these were "experimental" test versions of what the A1 later became). As far as I know, it did work well doing just that, but since few of the operators knew what it was for, how it worked or that it needed cleaning, most just plugged up with crud and were loud as [email protected] !! Of course, some operators wanted it that way, as it makes for good shock effect on undisciplined or ambushed troops. Why is any of this relevant? Real XM177 hiders, being much like silencers/suppressors, are regulated under US law the same, so all are already in expensive private collections or museums.

Having said that, that style of flashider (even if fake/not original) does look cool, so have fun!

Slickster1 : The slightly longer barrel on the M-4 is exactly to prevent that condition. that would be because his weapon was an XM/CAR-15 with a 10" barrel, and the gas block was just a quarter inch back, giving no time for gas to buildup and push the bolt carrier back... so yes, in the 10 " barrels, it would act as a "gas booster" or "recoil booster" as it has sometimes been refered to. The AK-74 shorty, "Krinkov" AKSU has a recoil booster, along with the MG-42. Now, thinking about that, consider what I said about crud building up: if you have a real silencer, most require complete weapon cleaning after about 100-300 rounds, MP-5-SD included (about 350 rds). Precious few do better than that. Also, because you trap tons of super-hot gas that normally goes out the barrel at 3000 ft per second, the weapon overheats in seconds of shooting, forcing most suppressed weapons to be fire SEMI-auto ONLY, even in emergency. The MP-5 SD is one of very few exceptions.

With all the heat, lubricants dry up, excessive wear, parts fail, barrels get burnt before the shootout is finished, and you even risk a bullet striking a bending baffle, resulting in a catastrophic failure and rickochet just an armlength away from your face!! Oh, and it certainly would not be quiet, either......

------------------
Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
Member
Member # 172

posted 06-17-2000 10:04 PM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry, that should read "MORE distance to prevent". Bushmaster website has good FAQ about assembly...

------------------
Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tailspin
Member
Member # 86

posted 06-18-2000 11:58 AM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey Rick...That is very interesting about the long flash supressor on the CAR. I always thought it was a "civilian" thing to get around the "overall length" laws in the US. Good info.

------------------
Joke 'em if they can't take a....


Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
Member
Member # 172

posted 06-18-2000 02:36 PM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ususaly, you would be right, since most such hiders are just sleeves that slip around the barrel, making it apear more like you were SOG or other snakeaters. I do know a few new civilian versions of it are a bit different inside now, one is made for true flashiding, while another for muzzle break. I'm not sure if they are still in production (that was over 5 years ago, and these companies come and go), though.

A second reason the M-4 barrel is two to three inches longer, is because they determined this gave the best velocity drop/barrel length compromise, and I think it only looses 250 fps compared to a regular M-16A2/SS-109. A 10 inch shorty would have a much more significant drop, perhaps 4-500 fps. A Civie legal (for USA) 16 inch barrel should give you nearly equal velocity compared to the full rifle. It's accuracy is very good too, and there are tons of free-floating handguards for shorties as well as full length. It would be well worth your while to get one, as they are very cheap ($50 us)

------------------
Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Dan.
unregistered

posted 06-19-2000 09:35 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rick,

Thanks for the information, and yes, I am very aware of the different legalities involved in assembling the different AR assemblies.

I also checked with one of the gunsmiths I use, he builds match and police AR's. He said the Shorty's buffer weighs less, so if the gun I have does NOT want to cycle reliably, to bring it in and he'd take care of it. Some cycle fine as is.

The flash hider on the XM177 was excellent as a quasi-suppressor, too. The one I am looking at is probably just patterened after that design, for looks. Good enough for me!

Si Vis etc

Dan


IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
Member
Member # 172

posted 06-19-2000 05:47 PM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dan, I do know the telescope buffer tube and buffer are indeed shorter, but I was not aware (but also not surprised) that they dont weight the same either. Since you are using the short gas tube, and a 16" barrel, you probably won't have problems with the normal buffer, though, since you will keep your standard stock, and the gas should be sufficient.

Flat-top?

------------------
Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Dan.
unregistered

posted 06-20-2000 09:57 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rick,

NO! I am changing to a telescoping stock; after all, what is the use of a "short" (relatively speaking) barrel if the stock does not collapse? Besides, its a cool configuration.

Flat-top? No...I never did care for those. Instead, I am going to take the SWAN mount off of my full length Sporter (go back to iron sights, very traditional) and mount the red dot sight on the carbine. The SWAN mount, if you are not familiar, clamps to the handle in two positions, top and front, and extends a mounting-rail riding just above the handguard. This is where the red dot will sit, allowing me to use the iron sight through the red dot should it fail. The mount also allows a scope to be mounted (via four screws, mounting a weaver rail) to the top of the handguard, still allowing the iron sights to be used through a tunnel the mount forms. Not very useful, I prefer the red dot.

Si Vis etc

Dan


IP: Logged
Rick.50cal
Member
Member # 172

posted 06-20-2000 02:52 PM     Profile for Rick.50cal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
oops! Sorry, I thought you meant you wanted to keep the full length stock...

Well, you will definately need to change buffers then.

------------------
Rick.50cal


Posts: 520 | From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

All times are MST (US)  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | COMBATSIM.COM Home

© COMBATSIM.COM, INC. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin Board 6.04b

Sponsor
© 2014 COMBATSIM.COM - All Rights Reserved