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Author Topic: US lies or efficiency of their military power (for RBs & WBs)
MACTEP
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posted 05-08-2000 03:42 AM     Profile for MACTEP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I recall from reading messages posted by RBs and WBs about who's side does cover ups and lies more often than another.
This is abt claimed US military numbers in kill ratios.
Long time ago when Soviets were still in power NATO officials had power over the data that could be available for the public in their countries. It's a quite transparent why they didn't wanted true numbers to show up. I'll leave it for another dispute.
I'm a RB "backer", so you know my attitude .
Today when soviets are more or less history, truth will more often hitt the fans, and "claimed" numbers from NATO and US military officials won't be so gargantuan.
Well WBs it's your sh1tty day to take a whipping . Tis data is from your own press not from post USSR data or media (which has info mostly in russian )
Flames are welcome.
This is an extact from msnbc: http://www.msnbc.com/news/404473.asp?cp1=1#BODY

DISPLAYING COLORFUL CHARTS, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Henry Shelton claimed that NATO’s air forces had killed “around 120 tanks,” “about 220 armored personnel carriers” and “up to 450 artillery and mortar pieces.”
An antiseptic war, fought by pilots flying safely three miles high. It seems almost too good to be true — and it was. In fact — as some critics suspected at the time — the air campaign against the Serb military in Kosovo was largely ineffective. NATO bombs plowed up some fields, blew up hundreds of cars, trucks and decoys, and barely dented Serb artillery and armor. According to a suppressed Air Force report obtained by Newsweek, the number of targets verifiably destroyed was a tiny fraction of those claimed: 14 tanks, not 120; 18 armored personnel carriers, not 220; 20 artillery pieces, not 450. Out of the 744 “confirmed” strikes by NATO pilots during the war, the Air Force investigators, who spent weeks combing Kosovo by helicopter and by foot, found evidence of just 58.The damage report has been buried by top military officers and Pentagon officials, who in interviews with Newsweek over the last three weeks were still glossing over or denying its significance. Why the evasions and dissembling, with the disturbing echoes of the inflated “body counts” of the Vietnam War?
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Now pay attention to these lines:
"In one sense, history is simply repeating itself. Pilots have been exaggerating their “kills” at least since the Battle of Britain in 1940"
Does it say anything to you guys?
HAhahahahaha!
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Allright this is enough for a little post. Read the article.
Mactep out.
P.S. Thanks to pnguyen for providing link
P.S. This is a copy from Current.


Posts: 181 | From: East Side | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tailspin
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posted 05-10-2000 03:59 PM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
To MACTEP and all you RB's...OK, I'll take the bait. It is EASY for you to TALK THE TALK now. There is nothing left for you to use for comparison. The MIGHTY Soviet Empire has crumbled around your feet. Now its all TALK,TALK,TALK...and you know there is not likely much chance of you ever having to prove yourself. You are killing each other at a much greater rate than the west ever managed. Well...that is only because the great Soviet Union never had the cajones to take on the west directly. While WE were backing our allies with machines AND blood, the USSR was thumping its chest and peeing in its pants at the same time. Shure,you say we actually fought directly against the US in Korea and Vietnam. How CONVENIENT it was all done in secret and the only records are those you provide. You feel better because NATO admits to inflating "kills" in Kosovo? How about all those Russian soldiers getting killed in those "areas under Russian control" in Chechnya?(SP?) If I supported a World Super Power that did nothing but cower in the shadows while it cajoled its "not so close" friends the Chinese,or its insignificant backwater Allies to do all the bleeding and dying, I wouldn't be talking so LOUD!:P USSR...My A**...Phoney a**ed...talk about a REAL paper tiger! sheese!If I've said it once,I've said it a Million times...the numbers just DON'T ADD UP in the REAL world!!
Hope I've accomodated you,MACTEP...Cheers

Tailspin...American and PROUD of it!!!

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Joke 'em if they can't take a....


Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rosco
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posted 05-10-2000 05:34 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tailspin, I think your "running scared" description fits the U.S. more than anything, although America isn't afraid to swagger now, that wasn't the case 10 or more years ago. Also, ten years may be thought of as a long time in the MTV/CNN Prozac nation that is the U.S., but elsewhere it's the blink of an eye. Russia is still there, they may well recover and will actively contest American interests.

I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from obvious mismatches like the Gulf War, the last time the U.S. faced an opponent on their level was against the Chinese in Korea, and that ended in a near defeat and bloody draw.

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"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
_ALEX_
unregistered

posted 05-10-2000 06:22 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tailspin,

It was a funny reading, but quite what was your point? Looks like that "mine is longer than yours" male thing to me


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'
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posted 05-10-2000 07:27 PM     Profile for '   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Bull's eye

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Posts: 445 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Tailspin
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posted 05-10-2000 08:19 PM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
...OK, you got me! I'm really not interested in debating the virtues(or LACK thereof)of the RB's vs. WB's. Figured MACTEP just wanted to "play". Rosco...I really don't know what you mean! Hell the US has been sticking its military "nose" in other countries business since the end of WWII. Running scared?? Where? Berlin?,Korea?,Lebanon(ok,forget I said that one),Vietnam?,Middle East? The arms race?,Western Europe?,Cuba? Uhh...whats MTV?
Alex...I agree! The whole world knows there are bigger pr**ks in the USA than anywhere!

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Joke 'em if they can't take a....

[This message has been edited by Tailspin (edited 05-10-2000).]


Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Rosco
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posted 05-10-2000 08:48 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tailspin, what I meant is, that Grenadas and Lebanons aside, it seemed like the U.S. was always tiptoeing around provoking the Soviets, always fighting defencively despite all the "strongest country in the world!!!" bluster. Look at all the restrictions around the attacking of SAM sites in Vietnam since Soviet technicians might have been present.

The U.S. was ever afraid to respond to Soviet actions, would they have stood by as American fighters shot down one of their airliners or put up with U.S. backed terrorism for so long? I doubt it. The only country in the West that wasn't fighting a slow retreat through most of the Cold War was Israel, and the U.S. almost let them down in 1973 by not intervening because of "what the Russians might do".

I doubt the Soviets truly feared or respected the U.S. if they could go about doing such things without consequence, Americans don't seem to know how to play the game. The Chinese are a very smart people and their far-seeing plans seem to be coming together...

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"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Tailspin
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posted 05-10-2000 09:05 PM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think the Cold War was begun and perpetuated by fear and mistrust. The Russians feared another invasion from the west so they held on to everything the took in WWII. This created a"buffer" zone where future invasions would not be fought on Russian soil. This Russian need for safety was interpreted by the west as agression and threatening the rest of Europe. Neither side trusted the others intentions. Each side feared the other. I think Gen. Curtis Lemay scared the hell out of the Russians. He should have! He scared plenty of Americans with his rhetoric. Kruschev in turn scared the hell out of the Americans. And his own military commanders. The whole thing was fueled by fear. My point was and is still that the US has historically put more on the line(so to speak)as far as its OWN troops are concerned to back up what it "preaches" than the USSR. The US bled its own blood more than the USSR in the name of its policies. For what its worth.

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Joke 'em if they can't take a....

[This message has been edited by Tailspin (edited 05-10-2000).]


Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
MACTEP
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posted 05-11-2000 05:24 AM     Profile for MACTEP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tailspin - fear was not of convential war but nuclear. I think that you are clever enough to not discuss it. US bully around only those countries that don't have nuclear capability to strike back into american soil or when they could being assure than soviets won't be involved for the fear of same.
It says all.
and, hmmm... I hope your dick size isn't disproportional to your brain size! hahahaha!!!

Posts: 181 | From: East Side | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tailspin
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posted 05-11-2000 06:15 PM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Uhhh...Thanks,I think? MACTEP...the debate would be pointless because I am correct and you are wrong and I realise you would never admit it.

A comment on the misinformation business. It is no suprise that the "game" of misinformation and manipulation of statistics is still alive and well even in todays "instant news" environment. I have been interested in WWII and the military in general since I can remember. Anyone who has studied military history should know that deception is an important part of any strategy. Military leaders don't see it as "lying". Its part of the overall action and has its purpose. I don't think you can point to one side or the other. Both are equally culpable.

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Joke 'em if they can't take a....


Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
MACTEP
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posted 05-12-2000 08:46 AM     Profile for MACTEP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tailspin, that was good taken
recently I've read articles on a russian site concerning those numbers claimed since ww2 about victories of luftwaffe(spelling?) over russian pilots and figures claimed by US in korean war - it was a good analysis with an explanation behind bloatet numbers. I understand the idology - but false believe in ones superiority might end up prutty tragic for him.

Posts: 181 | From: East Side | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tailspin
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posted 05-12-2000 05:18 PM     Profile for Tailspin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes I agree. We must remember that in spite of singular failures in intelligence,both sides have a pretty good idea of the other's capabilities...and their own. You know there have always been one set of statistics for "public consumption" and the REAL numbers for actual military planning. The saying..."Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see"...usually applies to anything the military "feeds" the public!

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Joke 'em if they can't take a....


Posts: 1895 | From: Metropolis USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Butcher
unregistered

posted 05-14-2000 12:36 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Everyone

I have some disturbing news for everyone that is not an Australian. I have recently read a friendly combat exercise report and have found that so far Australia has only ever lost 2 combat exercises. So far we have kicked the British, Indonesian, American's, Chinese and everybody else on an average air-air kill ratio at 1:13 and an average personnal kill ratio of 1:100. The 1 is Australian losses compared to enemy losses. This proves that Australia has the best Jungle Warfare specilists in the world!

P.S This has nothing to do with your previous subject other than saying they are 100% TRUE!


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Sammer
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posted 05-14-2000 12:52 AM     Profile for Sammer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
By any chance did Australia fight in an exercise against Singapore? I would like to know the details.

-Sammer


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El Diablo
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posted 05-21-2000 01:21 PM     Profile for El Diablo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I don't know what kind of Russian propaganda you have been reading MACTEP, but maybe you need to look at the big picture.

First, when you say that pilots have always been exaggerating their kills, that's true. What you seem to forget is that the Russians did so more than anyone else. At least when the Americans exaggerate something, it isn't so outrageous as to insult everyone's intellegence by them thinking that we would actually believe it. Like in the Korean War, it would be kinda hard for the Russians to kill more American aircraft than existed in the theater, wouldn't it? And when we shot down civilian airliners, at least we admitted it. The Russians, noooooo, they couldn't embarrass themselves in front of the "capitalist imperialistic aggressor Americans," could they? Hmmmmm....

And if the Soviets were so brave, why did they try to spread communism all around the world so quickly? Apparently they had no real confidence that they could take on the Americans alone and expect to win. Neither could anyone else, for that matter. That's why they had to rely on KGB sponsored terrorism to scare us (which is really the coward's way of fighting). After a while, the Russians wanted to pretend that they weren't doing it, so they had third parties do it for them. Big tough Soviets.

And finally, Tailspin was more or less correct in what he said on his first post on this thread. You can attack him all you want, but no one has been able to really disprove him.

El Diablo

[This message has been edited by El Diablo (edited 06-27-2000).]


Posts: 95 | From: NY, USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
MACTEP
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posted 05-22-2000 12:06 AM     Profile for MACTEP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
El Diablo, all u say is BS. period
Posts: 181 | From: East Side | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
_ALEX_
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posted 05-22-2000 08:58 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
> You can attack him all you want, but no one has been able to really disprove him.

Well, the only way to disprove him is for both him and MASTER to present theirs to a commission of three qualified physicians for a visual inspection / measurement.

And even then they'd have to agree whether comparisons should be made erected or "in the marching order".

Real things are usually more complicated than "mine is longer than yours" considerations.

Like, basically, west was militarily weaker than USSR in WWII aftermath; they knew it and they were extremely afraid of it (quite correctly so). Nukes demo'ed over Japanese cities saved the day. Then it was Soviets' turn to fear, as there were real and seriously discussed plans in Pentagon to nuke USSR "just so".

And then it was "war by proxy" period. Soviet Army did their share of fighting, although strategic leadership never was as stupid as to get involved full scale until Afganistan.


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AV7784
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posted 05-22-2000 11:49 AM     Profile for AV7784   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
THUD THUD THUD THUD THUD THUD

what's that? oh wait i know what it is.......
A DEAD HORSE BEING BEATEN!!!!!!


Posts: 88 | From: Aviano AB, Italy | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
'
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posted 05-22-2000 01:37 PM     Profile for '   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
...to death

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Posts: 445 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
El Diablo
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posted 05-23-2000 07:13 PM     Profile for El Diablo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
A dead horse being beaten to death... LOL.

Now MACTEP, why don't you tell us all why all I say is "BS". I think we would like to see your explanation, since apparently you are the only one with that opinion.

It's very easy to say someone is all BS. Now go and follow it through. Go ahead.

El Diablo

[This message has been edited by El Diablo (edited 06-27-2000).]


Posts: 95 | From: NY, USA | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged
John3283
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posted 06-27-2000 10:33 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Agreed Diablo.
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1
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posted 06-29-2000 12:18 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wow, someone stepped up to MACTEP and he doesnt show his face around here again, now there's a surprise.
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