my profile | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
»  COMBATSIM.COM Forum Archive   » Real Military Discussions   » Air Defense, Weapons, Platforms   » right to bear arms (Page 5)

 
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4  5 
 
Author Topic: right to bear arms
Dan.
unregistered

posted 06-01-2000 10:01 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Raver,

Skoonj said "Buying from an individual you need no paperwork if you don't want to do any, just turn over the weapon for money."

But not in all states. For instance in California where, for a legal transfer of a gun between private parties, a gun dealer (Federal Firearms Licence holder) must take the gun for the waiting period while all previously mentioned paperwork is filled out.

This will get me in trouble with some of my pro-gun peers: I agree with that law.

Everyone seemed to answer your question, so there is very little to add. The laws do vary greatly, for instance I was not aware that in Florida, CCW (concealed carry weapons) holder DO NOT have to undergo the waiting period. Makes sense to me! However, the vast majority of gun laws do not make much sense at all.

Let me know if there are any particulars we missed.

An interesting point that should not be missed: since 1965 there have been an additional 15,000 laws enacted, further restricting gun purchases. For instance, prior to that, you could order guns through the mail. With all those new gun laws, murder, assault, rape, and other violent crime continued to climb. The murder rate by handgun peaked at about 15,000 in 1994-5. Not until our justice system reversed itself in the mid-90's by enforcing harsher penalties did the crime rate begin to sink. In 1998, there were a mere 9,000 homicides by handguns, the lowest in over 15 years, I believe. To verify (and correct any inaccuracies, I'm going from memory), you may see these stats at the Bureau of Justice website, Homicide Trends in the United States at www.ojp.usdoj.gov.

Si Vis etc

Dan


IP: Logged
1
unregistered

posted 06-01-2000 11:21 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
so, what your are saying is that the crime rate didn't go down because of more guns, but because of harsher punishment?
IP: Logged
Dan.
unregistered

posted 06-01-2000 11:28 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
1,

No, I am saying that the crime rate did NOT go down because of restrictions enacted against law abiding citizens owning guns. It went down because we started punishing criminals.

Si Vis etc

Dan


IP: Logged
Abrams
Member
Member # 2631

posted 06-01-2000 01:44 PM     Profile for Abrams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dan I guess you didn't hear about the gun control law they've passed down here in Florida about concealed weapons and the selling of weapons. You have to get a background check and fill out many papers before you can get the permit or the gun. But it truely depends on the state you're in for the laws.
Posts: 168 | From: NAS Pensacola, FL, USA | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Big Stick
Member
Member # 596

posted 06-01-2000 02:45 PM     Profile for Big Stick     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What happens to your personal data you have to provide for the check? Do they have to destroy it?
Posts: 571 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
ShadowFox2000
Member
Member # 3583

posted 06-01-2000 02:53 PM     Profile for ShadowFox2000   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dan, do you actually believe that a criminal thinks of all the possible consequences to his actions before committing a crime? If so, you're badly mistaken. Just like the death penalty was supposed to be a crime deterrent. It's not. And if everyone made rational decisions all of the time, this discussion would have never taken place, because we wouldn't have a crime problem, or a gun control debate. Now I'm not saying I'm against harsher punishment, I'm saying that the only positive effects are that they keep criminals off the streets longer. Just something for you to think about.
Posts: 87 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
mbaxter
Member
Member # 191

posted 06-01-2000 03:32 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Is anyone seriously going to dish out that liberal garbage that criminals have no sense of self preservation?

Let's see ... the lowest crime rates in the world are in the countries with the death penalty and harsh sentencing laws, while the softest countries have the highest crime rates. And in the US when you used to have a tough justice system crime rates were a fraction what they are today. And when they toughened the justice system in the mid 90's crime decreased.

Hmmm... Isn't it funny that the same people who are against the death penalty are the same ones who thought communism was better than capitalism? After being consistenly wrong about everything for the last century, why is that the liberal intelligentsia still has so much clout?


Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Dan.
unregistered

posted 06-01-2000 04:19 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Shadowfox,

You said (paraphrased): "Dan, do you actually believe that a criminal thinks of all the possible consequences to his actions before committing a crime? If so, you're badly mistaken...the only positive effects (to longer prison sentances) are that they keep criminals off the streets longer."

Well, yes, that is correct. If you felt that I was implying that the ONLY thing reducing crime was longer or harsher prison sentances then I apologize. The truth is that the American crime rate is a very complex animal, subject to many different catalysts.

Those items that have a PROVEN track record for reducing crime, on a cause and effect basis verified through study:

1) The economy: Better economies have helped reduce the amount of violent crime for both socio-economic AND psychological reasons.

2) Punishment: Not only are we locking up criminals longer, preventing them from committing crime (our rate of recidivism is despicable), but there is an element of prevention through the threat of punishment. The death penalty is a poor example because of the TYPE of crime that it is applied to. Petty crimes and misdemeanors tend to go down in a "higher penalty" environment because the "cost" of doing business (5 years mandatory) far exceeds the "benefits" of the crime (that $100.00 bucks in the victims wallet).

3) Gun ownership: Specifically the ability to lawfully carry concealed weapons. Several studies have shown that liberally issued CCW licenses promote between 4% and 7% drops in violent crime. When a county in Florida ADVERTISED that they would be teaching women how to use handguns for self-defense, incidents of rape declined 40% to 70% (depending on the city) within a year! Now, if that is not an example of "cost of doing business..."

So, to conclude, the crime rate is subject to these and more complex issues that go on in society. All that is left to ask is: What can I do?

I can be aware of my environment, and not be a victim. Should someone attempt to make me a victim regardless, I can choose to submit, increasing my chances of injury, or resist, decreasing my chances of injury.

I choose to resist with a handgun; it reduces the chances of a violent confrontation, and does the most to ensure my personal safety, and the safety of those around me.

As for the criminal thinking of the consequences of his actions: I have never heard of any criminal, suspecting his victim to be armed OR willing to resist, continueing his attack. Am I "badly mistaken" as you put it? Well, its worked so far.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Dan


IP: Logged
Big Stick
Member
Member # 596

posted 06-01-2000 05:48 PM     Profile for Big Stick     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowFox2000:
Just like the death penalty was supposed to be a crime deterrent. It's not.

Oh yes it is. Ted Bundy is not going to kill anymore.


Posts: 571 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Raver
Member
Member # 2100

posted 06-01-2000 05:56 PM     Profile for Raver   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

Let's see ... the lowest crime rates in the world are in the countries with the death penalty and harsh sentencing laws, while the softest countries have the highest crime rates. And in the US when you used to have a tough justice system crime rates were a fraction what they are today. And when they toughened the justice system in the mid 90's crime decreased.


Well if the death penalty IS such a good deterant, then you should have no one else being convicted right? Well something has gone wrong cuz they are STILL sending people to death-row....looks like someone forgot to tell these low-lifes that the death penalty is supposed to DETER them from committing crimes.

The death penalty is great for the average guy on the street....makes him feel good that there is a state sanctioned "eye for an eye"(and helps state govenors' in their run for president ). But as for DETERING people....nope it don't work.


The Raver has spoken!


Posts: 276 | From: Melb/Aust | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Toecutter
Member
Member # 436

posted 06-01-2000 09:47 PM     Profile for Toecutter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Just a statistic that cought my attention somewhere that made my jaw drop: Out of 6 million prisoners in the world today, the US warehouses 2. You can work out the ratios but it`s like 10 to 1. And I didn`t even count our legislators...We have a lot of "free-spirits" around here folks. Our guns are necessary...and fun.
Posts: 1724 | From: States | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
1
unregistered

posted 06-02-2000 08:49 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
criminals do have self preservation which is why they will kill the person who is trying to arrest them. the death penalty doesn't reduce crime, it just make the criminal take out more people (no witness's) because he knows if he gets caught he will be executed.
IP: Logged
Dan.
unregistered

posted 06-02-2000 11:47 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
1,

Your argument is flawed, in that it just does not happen like that in the real world. Crimes that the death penalty are applied to are usually crime of passion, or so well thought out that the criminal really did not ever think he would be caught.

Where we ARE seeing more resistance, to the point of lives lost (usually the criminals) are in Three Strikes cases. When the bad guy knows he about to be apprehended for a third strike crime, he is much more likely to resist. This resistance has most often resulted in his death; rarely are citizens or cops injured.

Raver,

Please see above; the death penalty is not the detering punishment. Rather, our "truth in sentancing" attitudes and longer sentances have had great successes in detering crime.

You speak in extremes when you say things like "Well if the death penalty IS such a good deterant, then you should have no one else being convicted right?"

You know as well as I that the world does not operate that way.

Si Vis etc

Dan


IP: Logged
Raver
Member
Member # 2100

posted 06-03-2000 04:09 AM     Profile for Raver   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dan,

you are right in what you say, it was the way I wrote my last post that was flawed. The message that I was trying to get across was that if you bring in/have the death penalty and harsher sentecing laws, with the view that these will DETER crime, then you are in for a rude shock. The average criminal does not think past his nose....he/she, for the most part, only lives for the moment, and it never enters their brain that they will ever get caught.
Lets face it, if they DID think that way then there would be a hell of a lot less crime right?).

So if you are going to have a death penalty fine, BUT don't say that it is there to deter crime.

Hope this spells out my thoughts clearly.


The Raver has spoken!


Posts: 276 | From: Melb/Aust | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
[email protected]
Member
Member # 4935

posted 06-04-2000 01:03 PM     Profile for josh_greeno@hotmail.com   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by icebrain:
Well, I figured I had to put it so that some certain people could understand

Josh, can you please try not to post the same message five times?

Getting rid of guns will not solve anything. First, you would have to come up with a plan to get them away from people without violating the constitution. Also, getting them from criminals will not be as easy as "Mr. Criminal, guns are banned now. You need to give it to me so I can dispose of it." He'll just shoot you, after laughing.

No matter how idealistic, there is no way everyone in this world will unite peacefully without some powerful divine intervention. Until that point, you can forget it. Ain't gonna happen.

This is also the reason that crime will never be eliminated. Someone will always try to buck the system.

In short, until the Second Coming or Judgement Day, nothing will be perfect.


Your very right


Posts: 42 | From: Colombia,tn,usa | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
mbaxter
Member
Member # 191

posted 06-05-2000 06:45 PM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Raver - there is a world of differnce between having the death penalty on paper and actually using it. A country that has tough laws on paper but not in practice will not achieve enough of a deterrence factor. This is the problem with the US in particular.

Sure, US crime rates have been reduced quite a bit in the last ten years with longer sentencing (we don't kill them, we just keep them locked up longer at taxpayer expense). But if we were actually executing large numbers of criminals, that would knock our crime rate down much more dramatically.

The sad truth is more than 99% of all murderers do not get even get a death sentence, and with those few that do, they're usually old men before it gets carried out. It's rediculous.

Anyway, I'm happy I live in a state with few gun laws, high gun ownership rates, and where it's legal to carry concealed weapons (after background check and paying for permit, of course). Not surprisingly, the crime here is very low.


Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged

All times are MST (US)
This topic is comprised of pages:  1  2  3  4  5 
 

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | COMBATSIM.COM Home

COMBATSIM.COM, INC. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin Board 6.04b

Sponsor
2014 COMBATSIM.COM - All Rights Reserved