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Author Topic: right to bear arms
1
unregistered

posted 05-04-2000 09:08 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
the milia's in the constitution are control by federal and local governments, it is spelled out in the constitution, the bill of rights also tell certain branches of the government what right they have or do not have. If you look at the 1st admendment, it restricts congress from suppresing free speach and by doing that the us citezents have the right to free speach even the the admendment is directed at the congress. On the militia it is article 1, section 8 and article 2, section 2, that spells out the militia, and by the way i do not agree the route with gun control is any good, but i also believe that the 2nd admendment will not be overturned simply because the members in the government (local and fedearl) are to busy at each others throat.

"With effort and research, you'll find that since the implementation of the Reconstruction Acts, the federal government has "questionably" implemented an amendment that has given it supreme power to regulate citizenry, immigration laws, federal banking regulation, and civil rights laws that were technically either encompassed in the original intent of the Constitution, or strictly forbidden. So you see, the federal government has effectively wrested power from the hands of the people, and placed it squarely under their control. Fortunately for all of us, they're doing it in such a piecemeal fashion, that no one can see it coming until its too late"

Could you tell us wich admendment you a talking about?


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Kilo
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posted 05-05-2000 09:56 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think the proposition of every American having access to military grade firearms is pure insanity. Maybe Americans dont realize this, but the reason there are so many shootings, murders etc in the States is because anyone can own a firearm. And dont give me that "responsible civilians should be able to own guns" crap. Until he gets a criminal record, there is no way to tell if the guy buying the gun from you is a nutcase or not. The UN has rated Canada as the safest , and best country to live in. When the UN rated the safest cities to live in, 4 in the top ten were Canadian cities. The highest ranked US city was Boston, at #34. Most of the high ranking cities were Canadian or European. European nations also have strict gun laws which is why many are ranked so high.


Then there is the issue of the gov't taking everyone's rights in the US. I think the problem with this arguement is that if it is true, then the United States has a VERY BIG problem indeed. No one should have to fear their gov't so much that they need automatic weapons to defend themselves. I think this arguement is just an excuse to play with some toys. You dont need M16s to go hunting, or defend your home. An ordinary bolt action rifle SHOULD be enough. American society sickens me.


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comedy-dave
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posted 05-05-2000 10:56 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The 'right to bear arms'? ...Pah!

How about the 'right to bear my *** '!,

...i here-by reserve the right to bear my *** any time or place of my choosing. And it should be protected under law!


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Dan.
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posted 05-05-2000 11:27 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kilo,

You said "Maybe Americans dont realize this, but the reason there are so many shootings, murders etc in the States is because anyone can own a firearm."

Oh, really? Care to discuss this further?

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Dan


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Kilo
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posted 05-05-2000 01:24 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sure Dan.

Toronto is the 4th largest city in North America. Yet our crime rate is much lower then many smaller US cities. There are reasons for this. Its not as if every American is crazy, and there are just more criminals in the US per capita. Its just that in the US, there are more guns, and it is easier to obtain one. Look at Columbine, and all the other school shootings. Do you really think that if the kids couldnt get their hands on guns they would just run in with knives and bombs? No way. Why do you think that the US has one of the highest crime rates among Western nations? In the UK, France, Holland etc there are almost no crimes involving firearms that are as bad as what happens in the US. All the nations that have enforced gun control have less crime than the US. Its not rocket science. Guns cause more crimes than they prevent.


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Dan.
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posted 05-05-2000 02:10 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kilo,

You said "There are reasons for this. Its not as if every American is crazy, and there are just more criminals in the US per capita."

Well, yes actually we do have more criminals, but not in the way you have cited. Since we are so lax with our prosecution and more importantly punishment of criminals, we tend to let them out much faster than most other societies. This does two things: first, it cycles criminals onto the streets much faster, and second, creates an environment for career criminals to thrive. Granted, with our recent toughening of sentancing laws, our crime rates have decreased...which just proves the point. However, our rate of criminal recidivism is a crime in itself.

Then you say "...in the US, there are more guns, and it is easier to obtain one."

Taking your logic to its extreme, then we should have had triple the crime rate 20 and 30 years ago, because since then, nearly 20,000 state and federal firearms laws have been added to the books. In fact, as recent as 1968 you could buy complete firearms through the mail! Explain to me, with such tighter regulation of guns, how access to guns has elevated crime? Surely, even you can see there must be something other than that at work!

You asked "Do you really think that if the kids couldnt get their hands on guns they would just run in with knives and bombs?"

Of course they would! Criminals do in England and Japan and Europe all the time! Once one has determined to commit an act of violence, the tool is just a matter of choice. In fact, since LESS THAN 8% of ALL VIOLENT CRIMES in the U.S. involve a gun, the gun really is NOT the choice of criminals.

You commented "Why do you think that the US has one of the highest crime rates among Western nations?"

Crime? Yes, and due to our ideas of prosecution and punishment, not to mention cultural makeup. Not due to inanimate objects. However, murder rates? We lag far behind South America and several other nations per capita in that area, sorry to burst your bubble.

You claim "In the UK, France, Holland etc there are almost no crimes involving firearms..."

Before comparing the United States to countries other than Canada, I strongly suggest you read "The Cowboy, The Mountie, and The Samurai." You will then realize how important culture is regarding this topic, making your comparison inaccurate. In the future, if we are talking about American gun laws and crime, I feel it fair to keep it within American boudaries.

You claim "All the nations that have enforced gun control have less crime than the US."

Patently untrue. Look at Central and South America where crime is rampant, with full bans on ALL gun ownership. Parts of Eastern Europe are the same.

You state "Guns cause more crimes than they prevent."

Again, completely false. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Report; the Center for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta; the Federal Department of Justice; and Handgun Control, Incorporated:

In 1998 the presence of a handgun PREVENTED over (depending on the exact source) 500,000 violent crimes. (FBI = over 800,000 times, Handgun Control = 85,000 times; the NRA which I do NOT quote says about 1.5 million times). Interesting to note: Handgun Control is devoted to the ban of handguns, and CDC Atlanta leans toward the anti-gun side.

Contrast this, using the same sources, to: In 1998, guns were used in LESS THAN 8% of ALL VIOLENT CRIMES.

Using the same sources: in 1998 there were approximately between 8,000 and 10,000 murders where a firearm was used.

Do the math. Guns are not the problem, and in fact provide much of the solution. In the 31 states that have adopted laws making it easier to carry concealed handguns, the incidence of violent crime has dropped on average 7%. This, while crimes against inanimate objects such as vending machines and burglaries increased about 10%. The criminals were NOT going away, they were SWITCHING TO UNARMED, DEFENSLESS TARGETS.

Kilo, take the time to check my sources and do the math for yourself. The guns are not the issue, it is our crime rate and culture. To disagree, after doing some research, would prove either that you just want to be anti-gun, which is fine, or that you are in need of some remedial statistical analysis.

Si Vis etc

Dan


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Rosco
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posted 05-05-2000 03:32 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kilo >

Much of the difference between Canadian and American violent crime rate can be attributed to the fact that Canada run 10-15 years behind the U.S. some general trends. The hardcore youth gang movement and critical mass of criminality is only just emerging in Canadian cities. We were lucky our "official despised minority" the natives, took this long to take up the gang life.

Recently Vancouver B.C. "beat" our equivalent American city, Seattle, in number of murders, which is surprising as Vancouver doesn't have neglected tenements and "forgotten" neighbourhoods filled with people who'll pursue lifelong criminal careers. Trends once associated with U.S. cities, like fortified homes and gated communities, are starting to make their appearance here. This isn't the Canada of even ten years ago...

Lastly I've seen many of your posts and American bashing figures prominently in all of them, I don't have a problem with that by itself, In fact I often playfully indulge in it myself as Americans are by-and-large the most ignorant people you'll find {You know who you are } but I ask, what's Canada really done? If we're so much smarter and better than the Americans why are they in such a position over us? I doubt a 100 years from now anyway will remember there was a Canada.

Anyway, going back to topic, I find it strange that guns didn't become such a "scourge" on modern American society until the drug trade and post-modern criminal coddling liberal trends made their appearance. It's starting to look as if its that way in Canada as well. Also, you should be loathe go give up any long standing rights based on the actions of scum and criminals, it's like me taking away your internet "priviledges" based on the "fact" that you could set up a hate website.

------------------
"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Dan.
unregistered

posted 05-05-2000 04:38 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rosco,

Wow, well said. I've heard America described as the retarded child with the biggest stick on the block; don't piss him off. Sad, but funny and possibly true?

I'm American, and love the country, but we do tend to forget there are other kids in the sandbox.

Si Vis etc

Dan


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Kilo
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posted 05-05-2000 05:38 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It is not the lax treatment of criminals that causes the crimes. Canada also has a bad record in this area. Maybe you can tell me why Canada has less crime per capita then. You say that it is society differences. But firearms and gun control are social issues. You can not sit there and tell me what in a gun free US, crime would still be as high. So even if the kids are going to attacked with knives, I'd rather be attacked with a knife than a gun. For all those crimes that are prevented by guns, how many involve guns? Even if that number is higher, people are still killed with guns in the US in large numbers. I can be objective , because I am not American, but you are. Most anyone in Canada will agree with me that guns not only cause crimes, but make them more serious. Picture the US with no guns. Do you really think that the crime would as high, or the same amount of people would killed in crimes? I am not saying get rid of all guns, but the fact that in some states, it is legal to own a .50 cal machine is crazy. Do you really need that firepower?
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JOE
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posted 05-05-2000 05:54 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
ONLY 8000-10,000 people?!! Thats the size of a small town!! We lost the same amount of troops in Vietnam per year on average.How can you say that it is better having the right to own a gun, than save that many lives?! I am American, and I have no problem with rifles etc. But what Kilo said was right, automatic weapons cross the line. So even if guns prevented all those crimes, crime wouldnt be as deadly if burglars used bats and knives etc. I admit I am from NY, so I may not be as into guns as the next guy from Idaho, but there is no reason that there shouldnt be stiffer laws in the US.

Just wondering if there is a stat on how many crimes gun cause. You see, there wont be, because its impossible to tell when that happens. Once again, even if a man is going to rob a store, it would be much better if he did so with knife than with a gun.


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Rosco
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posted 05-05-2000 06:37 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I guess that someone should have told the Rwandans to put away their machetes and get some guns if they're gonna commit mass murder. It will take the U.S. a long time to match the million deaths caused by simple weopons in a short period of time in that tiny country.

Kilo, even if every single legal firearm in the U.S. was turned in, it would little or no effet on the overall murder rate, gangs and drug dealers can buy any weopons they can pay for, even the cigarette smugglers that plagued the Ontario/U.S. border in the early '90s often packed Uzis and AK-47s.

I can tell you even here in Vancouver, mere "graphitti tagger crews" can pack heat, despite our strict gun laws. If our authorities can't stop big rusty boats full of illegals from coming in, they're not going to stop illegal arms dealers from unloading their wares.

Heck, did you hear about the Russian guys that were caught selling SA-18s and other heavy weopons to what they thought were drug dealers/cartel types in Miami, these guys even said they might have nukes available!

As for Canada having less crime per capita, hell, Canada is mostly rural, We have 3 big cities, I don't think the Hells Angels, Crips, Asian gangs, Russians etc. are in any hurry to set up shop in f*cking small town Nova Scotia or Saskatchewan.

------------------
"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Dan.
unregistered

posted 05-06-2000 12:50 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kilo,

You said "It is not the lax treatment of criminals that causes the crimes."

Uh, yes, it is.

You said "You say that it is society differences."

No, you need to read a little slower, or increase your comprehension. I said "cultural" differences, and if you do not see the difference between the two, well, further conversation with you would be pointless until you are better educated.

You commented, "For all those crimes that are prevented by guns, how many involve guns?"

What does that matter? The very fact that guns are used to save lives...ahh, you just don't get it, do you?

You were foolish enough to say "Most anyone in Canada will agree with me that guns not only cause crimes,..."

CAUSE CRIMES? Um, when was the last time a gun was taken to court for a crime it commited? You see, here in America, that which "causes" a crime is taken to court. Put another way, if guns "caused" crimes as you say, oh my god, with the 240 MILLION firearms we have in this country, we'd ALL be dead. I do hope you see how utterly rediculous your comment was. You probably won't.

You said "Do you really need...."

Need, Kilo, has absolutely nothing to do with it. You are very mislead, and I am sorry for that.

JOE, so nice of you to speak up!

You said, referencing the number of homicides commited by firearm, "ONLY 8000-10,000 people?!!"

Did you read the rest? Guns in that same year SAVED somewhere in the neighborhood of 500,000 lives! That is a 50 to 1 ratio, I repeat: FOR EVERY LIFE TAKEN, FIFTY ACTS OF VIOLENCE ARE PREVENTED!

Now read this twice: guns are used in LESS THAN 8% OF ALL, REPEAT ALL VIOLENT CRIME. Doesn't that mean anything to you? Let me put it simpler: in drunk driving cases, cars are involved 100% of the time. The relevance? In each of the cases, a HUMAN ACT is responsible for the misuse of a tool.

You also said "crime wouldnt be as deadly if burglars used bats and knives etc."

That, at best, was a naive statement. Again, read slowly: MORE VIOLENT ACTS ARE COMMITTED WITH BATS, KNIVES, FISTS, and other implements that all guns put together. Joe, ever think that maybe guns are not the problem, but that criminals are? We realized it with drunk driving deaths a few years ago, and instead of banning cars, we started punishing drunk drivers. Newsflash: it worked, drunk driving deaths have been declining.

Si Vis etc

Dan


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Dan.
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posted 05-06-2000 12:52 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rosco,

Kilo and Joe would do well to read your posts twice. I think my facts just confuse them.

Si Vis etc

Dan


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Rosco
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posted 05-06-2000 02:39 AM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually Dan, I'm not really happy with the quality of my posts both here and elsewhere on this forum, I'm contending with some health problems right now and it is sometimes difficult to articulate my ideas to the degree that I'd like.

Joe and Kilo >

As for facing a knife, you guys don't know what you're talking about here either. If you're picturing fending off a lame attack by some skinny chain smoking punk with a little folding knife, think again. How about some big biker with a thick bladed hunting knife or a fast darty guy with a butterfly knife. Imagine getting a blade slammed into your face or gut or seeing a large rip on your arm because you tried to block sharp steel. Even worse would be the guy who takes a good heavy machete and just lops off your forearms.

Knives are no joke, ask O.J. Simpson, if he's not too busy looking for the real killers. He could tell you that someone not even in great physical condition and with no training could massive damage with a knife. I'd "rather" face someone armed with the most common criminal firearms, which are .22 and .25 caliber semi-automatics. Anyway, I'd rather not deal with any of the above without a gun, how about you?

------------------
"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Toecutter
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posted 05-06-2000 03:50 AM     Profile for Toecutter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
C`mon guys, show some tolerance: You`re confusing Kilo and Joe with the facts here...
Hey, they`d rather live in a safe, politically correct, police camp/welfare state, it`s their prerrogative no? As long as they stay in the Peoples Republic of Canada who cares, fuk`em...

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Raver
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posted 05-06-2000 04:42 AM     Profile for Raver   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ok, I know that I am cop some flack on what I am about to say, but it needs to be said.

I ask the following question, if you have a tool that kills and maims over 20,000 people per year in the US, would you take steps to solve the problem and try to reduce the death toll? Or would you accept that 20,000 plus is an acceptable number in order to have access to and use this tool?

If it had been PROVEN that draconian laws did in fact significatily REDUCE the death toll, would you welcome the impelmentation of such laws to help save lives? Or would you consider the right of the indivdual more important?

I would hope that those of you who have read this far would indeed agree that life is more important than just a "Tool" and that every resonable step should be taken to prevent loss of life, be it through the restriction in how those tools are used or even in some cases, as to WHO has access to thses tools.


Just some thoughts on the matter.

The Raver has spoken!


P.S. Oh, and no, I am not talking about Guns, I am infact talking about C.A.R.S.



Posts: 276 | From: Melb/Aust | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
JOE
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posted 05-06-2000 05:54 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually toecutter, I'm American...
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GI
unregistered

posted 05-06-2000 05:59 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Shame on you Dan. Just because Kilo and JOE do not agree with you, does not mean you have to make personal attacks on their "comprehension" etc. I am sure they comprehend fine, they just have a different viewpoint. This discussion was interesting until these sorts of things began.


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Kilo
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posted 05-06-2000 06:10 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Not sure what you meant by " police camp/welfare state" toecutter. But yes, I would rather live in safe nation, where we excellent social services, less polution, less crime, and in a nation that was rated by the UN as the No. 1 place to live in the world. Amid all this flak for holding an opinion on what is supposed to be a "discussion board", I think I will stop contributing to this thread. I really dont care about Americans. Its not as if my country has this problem.
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Rosco
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posted 05-06-2000 04:32 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As a Canadian, I am ashamed at my country's role in trying to push forth the seizure of privately owned weopons in the U.S. and elsewhere though U.N. arms control measures, and for our "soft power" sh*t disturbing in general. It stems from insecurity, perceived self-importance and a "If we can't do it, they shouldn't be able to either" mindset.

You can bet Canada wouldn't have pushed nearly as hard on the landmine treaty if we still had our men and women stationed in South Korea. The same Canada that spoke out against apartheid in South Africa and racial inequality in the U.S. when we had/have our brutal residential schools and our Davis Inlets.

Natives live at the fringes of Canadian society, far moreso than any minority group in the U.S. We will pay the price for wrongs real and imagined as the current and accelerating native youth boom comes of age.

Kilo, if you're still reading this thread, I'm assUmeing you're from the empire building province of Ontario, the greatest benificiary and recipient of much of Canada's tax and investment dollars, especially Western Canada's.

I'll just say many people that out West here, things are different, we're far, far away from the Liberal morass in Ottawa which takes our money and pushes its ideas on us in return. We could do without you, or the f*cking Frogs in Quebec or the perpetual welfare statelets that are the Maritime provinces. As far as I'm concerned, the East isn't my country so I don't care what happens over there.

------------------
"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Kilo
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posted 05-07-2000 01:22 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Too bad Im from Winnipeg...

I dont agree with your outlook on the rest of Canada either. Sure Quebec creates problems for the rest of us, but what do you have against the Maritimes? They are some of the most hard working people in Canada. I would like to see how us in the West would survive without Ontario too. It is the financial capitol of Canada, and a great boost to our economy and trading.


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Dan.
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posted 05-07-2000 01:55 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
GI,

My comments regarding comprehension were not attacks and I am sorry if you saw them that way.

They were honest observations!

Si Vis etc

Dan


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Rosco
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posted 05-07-2000 03:32 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kilo >

The moronic and unsustainable practice of tranfer payments {federal gouging of our wealthier provinces to prop up the poorer ones} is merely robbing our productive centers of their future while putting 19th century industries like fishing and logging on life support. Not like it matters, with our talent heading South to places and companies that matter.

I look forward to taking my skills elsewhere once my schooling is finished, cold weather, a sluggish lifestyle and a bunch of crumbling social programs aren't enough anymore. Not that I'll be missed, as three non-English speaking, welfare and EI abusing {Liberal voting} immigrants will no doubt take my place.

As for the West surviving without Ontario, as the dollar drops still further to critical levels and the economic prospects dry up, many provinces will decide to enter the thriving U.S. economy instead of struggling with keeping a bunch of Ottawa politicians in their "big fish in a small pond" role that they so enjoy.

------------------
"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Meaty1
unregistered

posted 05-07-2000 06:06 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
the reason there is more crime in US than Canada cause canuck thieves go to yankeeland to steal, we got better stuff...makes you feel priveledged dont it?

P.S. why is there no illegal immigration problem in Canada, with such fine cities and safe towns youd think EVERYONE would be rushing to get into Canada....


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Kilo
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posted 05-07-2000 06:53 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Meaty, not sure where you got your info about our immigration. Last summer, there were several boats of illegal Chinese immigrants heading for Canada. All told, nearly 1000 came over illegally. It has been such a problem that the RCN has had to step up patrols quite a bit on the West coast.
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Kilo
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posted 05-07-2000 06:58 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rosco, our economy is at the best level its ever been. It has actually outgrown the US economy (per capita) in several areas. Your lack of faith in Canada is disturbing.
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CDN
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posted 05-07-2000 07:00 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Meaty, do you think the UN just makes this stuff up?
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Rosco
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posted 05-07-2000 09:16 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kilo >

If our economy is outpacing their's in anything it's because we have a lot of ground to make up as our economy recovered from the early 90's recession only recently and because their's leaves little room for improvement.

It irks me that my American friends and cousins, who'd be lucky to be able to find their own country on a map of North America, make a hell of a lot more money than I do and get to keep so much more of it, not to mention have far better goods and services available to spend it all on.

And our our vaunted social programs, The ones that we give up so much in return for? They're falling apart, I'm on a medical waiting list and have been for a year now. Now if was one of those 1000 Chinese illegals that landed not far from were I live last summer, I'd be O.K., as they all recieved medical attention.

As it is, I can't save enough Canadian dollarettes to make a go of seeking treatment in the U.S. I am far from the only person in this situation, too, an old family friend of mine will die from an otherwise easily preventable lung cancer because he had to wait so long for a simple scan that the cancer had spread to both lungs.

I have to say our country really has to make some profound and painful changes if its to last in the 21st century, scoring highly according to the U.N.'s leftist criteria won't do us any good if we're become the world's newest Third World state.

------------------
"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
1
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posted 05-08-2000 02:29 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
rosco, as long as you don't move to the US, we have enough canadians taking jobs from americans here.
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Rosco
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posted 05-08-2000 04:47 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
1, maybe in the film industry but otherwise you can't really 'steal' a job from a field experiencing a shortage of workers. If anything many Canadians will be 'stealing' jobs like lettuce picking and service postions from Mexican illegals in the years to come.

------------------
"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Major Tom
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posted 05-09-2000 03:17 AM     Profile for Major Tom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Whoever said this, said it best...

"Slaves don't own guns"


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icebrain
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posted 05-09-2000 07:24 PM     Profile for icebrain   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
1. If guns CAUSED crime, why do we still have a military? All guns can do is obey the laws of physics, gravity, and ballistics. They cannot commit a crime, and the are certainsly not responsible for their own actions. The sole responsiblity for the action of a gun belongs to its user. That is why lawsuits against gun manufacturers is so stupid. The people claim that, although they see hundreds of shows and movies and news stories about what a gun can do if used incorrectly, they still claim ignorance. The manufacturers are not responsible for the thoughts and actions of their customers. This is similar to the way that we cannot sue a car company if we are hit by a drunk driver, or sue a computer company if we are the victim of a virus attack.

2. Social programs actually encourage another generation of low-life gangbangers and inner-city rapists and stuff. By throwing money at the problem, it is tacitly admitting that being a bum is acceptable, that its OK to cause problems for everyone else. Then, they bring kids in, the kids pick up on this quickly, and BAM! The problem grows.

3. I think that even the thought that one's target might be armed with a gun would deter most criminals.

4. If guns and the easy avalibility thereof cause the problem (and I reiterate), then why weren't there thousands more violent crimes involving guns committed 30, 40, 50, or more years ago? They've been around for hundreds of years, but the problem has only appeared in the last 20 to 30 years. Maybe there's a connection between the trash we fill kids' heads with now and the higher numbers of crimes committed. (I'm 15, and even I can see the problems our society has caused)


"Take away their guns, and they will use knives. Take away their knives, and they will use clubs. Take away their clubs, and they will use their hands. Take away their hands, and it's cruel and unusual punishment."


Posts: 589 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
mbaxter
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Member # 191

posted 05-11-2000 05:26 AM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I want the thank the leftists on this thread for reminding me to renew my NRA membership. It had expired.

With the election coming up its important the NRA budget be raised accordingly. Increased membership will accomplish this. It's all a matter of money in any democracy (buying and selling politicians) and the key is to outspend the leftists who are pushing for yet more gun control this election. Since the media is behind the leftists, the NRA needs large resources to combat them. If you disagree with gun control make sure you're an NRA member this year.

Along those lines, I wrote the following article which was posted in my state newspaper last week:

"Last week in Britain, Tony Martin, a 55-year old British farmer, was sentenced to life in prison for killing one burglar and wounding his accomplice after they broke into his house, which these same men had robbed repeatedly in the past. While Martin had no criminal record whatsoever, the two burglars for their part were career criminals with lengthy arrest records, who had often boasted of their deeds publicly. A major factor in the guilty verdict against Martin was the fact that his possession of the shotgun which he used to defend his home was illegal in Britain. What is perhaps more horrifying is that despite the unbelievable injustice of Martin's imprisonment, there has been no major public outcry against the verdict among the British public. This apathy reflects very poorly on the character of the British people, but they are more like Americans than many of us would care to admit. The sad fact is that this case is merely a premonition of what America will experience if the pro-criminal gun grabbers of the American left have their way. Do we want America to become a nation where defending your own life and property is illegal because the very possession of a weapon in the first place labels you a criminal? This is the path on which we are headed. I hope this British outrage, among many others, serves to motivate more Americans to get off their cans and join the NRA - the only organization that can ensure America never becomes a nation where the law abiding are more afraid of the law than the criminals themselves."

Doing stuff like this is just as easy as posting on these message boards. I've been printed more times than I can count - even by leftist newspapers.

Dan - glad to be of service.


Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
mbaxter
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Member # 191

posted 05-11-2000 05:30 AM     Profile for mbaxter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
By the way, one thing which many of you leftists conveniently ignore is that countries with less gun control than the US also have less crime. Isreal, New Zealand, and Switzerland come to mind, among others.
Posts: 1687 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tonx
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Member # 456

posted 05-11-2000 07:57 AM     Profile for Tonx   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Wow, you Yanks sure love your guns!

Don't you guys think that the fact that you need a gun to feel safe speaks for it's self?

Anyway, I'm Aussie and 99% of Australians will tell you that tough gunlaws is one of the best things our government has done. If the NRA tries to tell you different, they are liars. We don't fear our government, in fact many think it's joke! Sure we have crime, but only about about 400 murders pre annum out of a population of 19 Million.

I know US gun laws are none of our business, but don't be surprised if those from tough gun law/low crime rate countries think your on the wrong track.

Rosco stated that the Rwandans killed a million with machettes; imagine the death toll if they had assualt rifles!

And I don't care what anyone else thinks, I know I'd have more chance defending myself against a guy with a knife/bat/brick than a gun.

"You do it your way, we'll do it our way"


Posts: 18 | From: | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
1
unregistered

posted 05-11-2000 09:15 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In isreal they use bombs and weapons of mass destruction, who needs a measlly gun when you have those weapons.
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Dan.
unregistered

posted 05-11-2000 10:16 AM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
mbaxter,

Your last post started ""Last week in Britain, Tony Martin, a 55-year old British farmer, was sentenced to life in prison for killing one burglar and wounding his accomplice...."

Can I use that one too, in its entirety?

Thanks!

Tonx, you said: 'Don't you guys think that the fact that you need a gun to feel safe speaks for it's self?"

Yes, but that speaks more for our out of control (but declining) crime rate than it says anything at all about guns.

You also said "I know US gun laws are none of our business, but don't be surprised if those from tough gun law/low crime rate countries think your on the wrong track."

While I would not go so far as to say it was none of your business, I would say that those who think we are on the wrong track have NOT done two things: researched our crime vs gun statistics which support the fact that where there are more legally owned guns, there is less crime, and fail to understand fully the American culture from an historical point of view. Something we Americans are equally guilty of with other countries.

Your last comment: "And I don't care what anyone else thinks, I know I'd have more chance defending myself against a guy with a knife/bat/brick than a gun."

You, unarmed, stand little or no chance against an attacker armed with a knife, bat, brick, or gun. With a gun, you stand (according to our FBI's Uniform Crime Report statistics) about a 40% to 70% chance of avoiding injury. (Admission: that statistic measured ANY means of resistance to a violent crime, I am the one including using a gun).

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Dan


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Rosco
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posted 05-11-2000 01:38 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tonx >

AK-47s are available in Sub-Saharan Africa for about $50, so they were likely available, however, the machete was sufficient against presumably unarmed people. It took the Nazis five years of massive industrialized horror to kill 15 million in the Final Solution, where as the Rwandans took only six weeks to kill a million with their blades.

1,

What? Israeli civilians can purchase heavy weoponry?! I'll bet a Merkava main battle tank would be great for home defence!

------------------
"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Mispunt
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posted 05-11-2000 04:01 PM     Profile for Mispunt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Some americans are definately very Fvcked up.
many of you apparently need an enemy to fuel your paranoia...

[This message has been edited by Mispunt (edited 05-11-2000).]


Posts: 182 | From: Rotterdam, The Netherlands | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Rosco
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Member # 1779

posted 05-11-2000 04:32 PM     Profile for Rosco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yes, and that enemy is appearantly law abiding gun owners.

------------------
"And if you don't like it, eat a gun"


Posts: 984 | From: Hazzard County | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged

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