I won't say your wrong because you're not. In fact, in some ways you were too kind. You didn't mention some of the weird bugs like the killer torque that affects your plane after landing even when the engine is off, or the collision bubble that's three times the size of your plane, or the fact that if you land just a little too hard and a little too fast, you die. No bent gear, and a prop strike is instantly fatal.

But I still consider this a damned good sim, and I'll continue to play it for a long time. Why? I guess it boils down to the fact that I FINALLY have the chance to fly what I consider to be some of the coolest planes ever made. Ever. And I get to land them on carriers. That, for me, trumps any other consideration.

I agree that the campaign is kinda stupid (what's with those freakin' goals?) And the wingmen are pretty stupid too. But, dang it, I get to fly a believable Corsair against believable Zekes, Oscars, Bettys, Kates, etc. Even better, I get to fly the Japanese fighters too.

I guess it helps that the combat is challenging for me; that helps keep me interested.

Great article!

I belong to a rather large online CFS group (120+ members) and most of us have gotten CFS2 to "move on" eventually.

Alot of us are very dissapointed at Microsoft's (M$) money for quality stuff, we had at two occations chatted with Tucker at M$, and they hadn't even thought of the possibility of dropping bombs or rockets in multiplayer (true)

IMHO CFS2 is barely a beta still, made solely for offline users... full of bugs, errors and ... as you said, no soul

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gambit21:
Bring on B17 II

---

Bring on Gambit's new $2,500.00 computer he will need to play B17 II...

I thought I was the only one disappointed with CFS2 and have been searching the web for anyone else with a bad word to say about this sim.

I suppose some of the user addons may keep it on my disk for a dew more weeks.

Cheers

Cleanur

Good article, funny and informative both. Saved me a few $$ too. I'll wait and see if many of my flying buddies take the game up and if the mods make it much better.

BTW, there *is* hope of the mods improving things significantly. For instance, take a look at the William Tell site and its CFS section and the work on FM. I'm sure there is lots of work going on elsewhere too.
http://exo.com/~gregoryp/

When I read drivel like this I begin to flashback to the eighties and listening to Harley riders defending their slow, oil-drippings, obsolete scooters.

No soul? Sheesh, throw objectivity out the door.

I think they've got to release a patch...A lot of people like me have display problems when they go into chase view. And the absolute paralyzation of your ailerons after taking a single bullet to any spot on the airframe must be a bug...and the incredible torque effects and hair trigger breaks when landing were not intentional I have to believe.

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head!

I've waited a year for this sim. Read every thing I could about it, watched all the bulletin boards, visited Microsoft almost daily looking for news, any news, on it.

And as soon as it was out..... bought it.

Then reality set in. It IS a disappointment. It DOESN'T live up to the hype. But that's OK. Vey few sims do.

Take EAW for example. Of the 11 sims I have, this is my favourite. Yet it took several patches and a LOT of work by third parties to get it to the stage it is now. Which is absolutely fantastic!

I can live with CFS 2 having several problems. After all, I did with CFS. But what really burns me is that Tucker Hatfield has stated that CFS 2 doesn't need a patch. Now THAT really bugs me. This sim could be one of the truly greats. But it requires Microsoft to continue supporting it through patch updates.

I felt I was in some way defective, well, I probably am, for not feeling that CFS1 was
the greatest thing since the Big Mac. I just had to have it, and was deeply disappointed.
I heard good things about 2, and was going to give it a shot, and would have probably
regretted it, also. I am all for gee-whiz graphics, etc., but that intangble immersion
is what keeps it going for me. Falcon 4 and, lately, EECH have it. CFS doesn't, IMHO.

"... grisly train wreck."
>chortle<
I Like it!

------------------------------------------
"...I can question wheter you can be immersed at all."
-----------------------------------------

I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot, but I really am curious. Plummrx, how do you define immersion? I look to the sim as a whole- does it suspend disbelief enough to make me loose hours on end in a period I was born too late for doing a job I've never had? Sure, the aircraft in CFS2 are fun to fly and manage, and I have said as much in the IMHO column. But the actual flying is only a part of what makes a flight sim. Hell, look at Flanker 2.0- what an absolute joy it is to fly the Sukhoi, and an extreme challenge to boot. But is it immersive? Not even a little bit. There is no goal, no end game. No freaking gameplay.
When my mission breifing is presented to me in a form that looks more like a page ripped from Sgt. Rock and the Howling Commandos comic book, I have a really hard time adopting the mindset of a heroic naval aviator. When nearly every engagement in the campaign is initiated by a head-on pass, it feels like just another quick-mission dogfight. When my view system is a legacy leftover from the MS FS series, with the exception of that annoying yellow box than cannot be adjusted or turned off, I just don't believe that I'm doing anything other than playing a simple game. Fly the airplane and fight your battles as cautiously as you like- that doesn't rectify the fact that none of your AI wingmen- the guys that real pilots depend their life on- could think or fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Fine. Want to fly with real wingmen during multiplayer? Well, Microsoft didn't think that you really want that, so they were kind enough as to not include that little piece of bothersome functionality.
There is just plain nothing compelling about this sim. Sterile. Lifeless. Stultifyingly dull, once you get over the breathtaking aircraft models.
And yes, Neal- I did choose my words carefully- no soul. Oh, and by the way...objectivity never even entered into the equation of my column. Look up what IMHO stands for; you may be in for a shock.
So really, guys, what is your definition of immersion? I truly would like to know, as I'm obviously one of those who was born with the inability to pretend.

I agree with you. Although the AC graphics are pretty and the damage graphics are convincing, it just does not provide the same sense of immersion as EAW. And what's with the comic-book format and the seemingly P.C. intros? Is this a nod to the new generation of revised historians?
I am frustrated by the simple-minded wingmen, the impossible collision bubble, and the lack of a coherent campaign among other gripes. Do I need to say anything about multiplayer?
Thanks for your forthright review.

speaking about the CFS2's flight model, I do have some serious trouble with it.
When I fly a tight turn - not even a hard one - and I'm bleeding speed, I get a stall warning. OKay, that much is clearly accepted. But then the wing outside of the turn (the wing pointing up) is stalling, falling down and dropping me out of the turn. In fact the falling wing drops about 20 degrees below the horizon and leaves the plane turning in the OTHER direction.
This is absolutely repeatable and happens in alle planes I tried in CFS2.
Hmmm...
I've never flown one of those high powered piston engined combat planes, but I do have at least 30 solo hours in glider planes and glider planes do a lot of turns. Some tight, some wide some fast and some slow. And not once I ever had the outward wing, the one actually moving faster then the inner wing, stalling and reversing my turn. What the f*§k are they modelling here? Loadfactor?

Or is this just a pre-defined procedure like: if player turning to fast then drop him out of the turn?
I flightmodel is something different.

Emacs-
Thanks for reminding me...I HATE that characteristic in the FM. There is almost a binary 0 or 1, ON or OFF line in the FM of these airplanes...an accelerated stall usually just results in the airplane being flipped 90 degrees to the bank angle when it had entered into the stall- *blip* - that's it. No rumble,no nothing... just *blip* and you are momentarily dumped out of your turn. Awful.

------------------
Bob "Groucho" Marks
"Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones."
-Major Kong, USAF/SAC
(As played by Slim Pickens in "Dr. Strangelove")

I was thinking of picking this up just for the eye candy, but i can't justify that money (70 canadian) with all the bad juju i'm hearing.

Thanks for letting the masses know all the bad points. and not jumping on the fanboy band wagon.

Well done. Couldn't agree more. I call this kind of sim a 3 week wonder. OTOH, I'm glad it is there because I think it is the kind of sim that brings more people into the genre, but for people who have been there and done that this one leaves much to be desired.

But it was fun for about 3 weeks. Now off the HD forever. MiG Alley, EECH and F4 are still kicking.

1) isntallation. CFS2 was good here no major issues for me.

2)stabilaty. Again good no crashes.

4)graphics. Looks dam perty!

5)sound. good could be better but it was good some sounds where hallow and there was no 3d sound.

6)settings. more then I can shake a stick at. the wierd thing is some basic settings seemed non exsistant and setting key mapping for easy joyustick programming was a pain in arse.

5)Flight Model. Felt like it was taken directly out of Air warrior with torque added (air warrior has been around since 1987). The flight model seemed to easy at time spins where rare but came sporatically with no warning. To this day I swear Warbirds and Aces High have the most challenging yet most realistic flight model Ive ever played.

6)damage model. Was perty good in the visuals but nearly all dammage effected roll rate even things that shouldn't. Its a step up from older simms but I wish it was a little better ballanced and more acurate with the plane.

7)cockpit. the 2d cockpit was nice the 3d was pain and the prop just looked uggly. theres alot of older sims that did better and have better cockpits. again as uglly as it is I would say aces high has better cokcpits (3d rendered only). the hud view is OK but kind of spoils it for me and I loose some of that fleating emersion factor.

8)AI, dogfighting betties, and annoying allies (I go so erked at my wingman I shot at him then rammed him with my plane). I really want to switch sides in the middle of a battle. there guys are always 10 times better then mine.

9)Multiplayer, you're joking right multiplayer sucks I can have more fun downloading aces high and playing free 8 man multiplayer games over the internet. the limitations of the game really come out here. and I really hate it when the game tells me what dammage I did to the nmy plane really spoils the suprise. I even shot down a kid (nearly got shot down by) flying a zeke with a f-14 FM can you say overshoot. the only way to play this game multi-player is with friends you trust.

10)plane set is just plain incomplete. I shouldn't have to relie on 3rd party or player mods for pacific camp planes going to jsut 7 was sure plain stupidity and another peice of evendance Microsoft didn't give a rats ass about completeing the game.

11) the campieghns. way to limited by far. I should have more camps and more planes. I should at least minimum have and IJN, IJA, USN, USAF, USMC camps. if they really wanted to get into it they could have added even more camps that are unit specific like the VAF flyign tigers, the Cactus Air force VF-17 and Vmf-214 ect. the camp itself was linier and big major battles had way to little shorties. the replay value as is in the game just plane sucks.

expandabilaty. the games true strength You can add camps missions planes FMs the hole 9 yards. this is the only thing that can give the game a lifespan past the first week.

other anoying features, The flag guy in a window flapping his arms frantically, bet no WWII pilot had one of those in the upper left hand corner of his cockpit (Unless he crashed into him) I would have rather requested landing and been talked down then to see this guy in my cockpit looking like a bug that smacked into it doing arobics. ships sem to go down to easy AAA and AI enemy seem to single you out. the betty is to tough her gunners to accurate and her pilot way to aggressive. I hate bomber pilots that think there fighter pilots and I hate bombers that preform like fighters I know some of them wings shoulda snapped off. I wount touch the comic book movies.

Finally there are other issues i have with this game. my biggest is imemrsion, and some of the reviews that never point out the weaknesses of the game. with all the resorces that mocrosoft has they really fumbled on cfs2 and there reliance on 3rd party add ons has gone way to far why don't they just have a 3rd party make the game for them. when I purchase a game I want a complete fully immersive realistic SIM. I think Ia entitaled to it I spent my hard earned dough on it. Iam not bying a game engine. Iam buying a game and want the most bang for my buck. I still feal better with EAW and FS:SDOE. I really feel better with Aces high and Warbirds (and possibly Air warrior4). Its not to much to ask for someone to make a complete fully featured WWII flight sim with lots of planes and options and a campaighns that can take a month to go threw all of them. every one either models there games after a specific battle or a specific plane ( with is fine for some modern simms) but I want a fully featured WWII Combat flight simulator I can deal with pacific and europeen games being seprate but god I wish I had a big plane set that matches the theater of operations. I flet CFS was not worth the money it was fun for week and then died i would rather have half the money I paid for the game to goto the people (mostly players) that slave away to add to the game for free.

thank you and sorry for the spelling errors Iam tired and suffering sleep depervation.

It appears to be targeting two basic types of target audience:

• People with a short attention span, moderate learning aptitude and little interest in creative problem solving
  
• Children to young and naive to understand the similarities and differences between CFS and something like Mig Alley
  

If I'm right, then most of the problems plaguing the game are not really relevant from Microsoft's point of view. They identify their target audience and deliver a product optimal for that type of audience. They don't care about critical and demanding thinkers like Mr.Marks because Mr.Marks does not belong to their business plan.

I don't believe Microsoft does not know what it takes to make an outstanding and convincing military simulation. They knew it pretty darn well since the early 1990s when they got their hands on Tornado and Falcon 3.

Microsoft CFS was never meant to be a critically-acclaimed success. It was conceived to make the maximum amount of money with the minimum amount of effort & risk on the part of the development team.

I recently learned that for Multiplayer, CFS2 is using CFS1's arena style kid-play dogfighting on the Zone. Eech. I'll download Aces High and play with 8 of my friends for free thank-you.

No on-line co-op missions? No online campaign? How long have they been working on this? How long has multiplayer been considered important?

Oh well. I'm back to playing SDOE.

And can you believe this crap from CGW? (That's Computer Gaming World)

quote:

---

With Microsoft's superiority in the silicon skies, only the Russians would be crazy enough to take them on...........STURMOVIK ("stormer") looks almost as good as Microsoft's COMBAT FLIGHT SIMULATOR 2, and boasts as many features.

---

"almost as good"

sighs

------------------
my web-site; a work in progress; if you have the time please check it out.

CFSIII will fix the most glaring errors in CFSII and after it sells a zillion copies CFSIV will fix what is wrong with III and Gates will continue with his revenge of the nerd.

What really amazes me is why guys who consider themselves super reality simmers even consider a Microsoft game.

Gates has your number guys, he has had it since his first effort.

He had my number only after some guys got a B17 flying in CFS and we tried to use it for online practice in anticipation of B17-2, what a joke on us, on both accounts!!

He will never get it again though.

The sad thing is that if Gates actually gave a rats ass about those who consume his products we would have the most efficient computer operating systems and the best flightsims or games or whatever else carried his label on this planet.

As it is, and shall remain, he will sell new versions of Windows and Flight Simulator and whatever else crap he wants every two years or so because people will buy it.

Guess who is off Bills Christmas list and has probably seen his last MS Beta anything?

Great article.