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»  COMBATSIM.COM ARCHIVE FORUM   » Archives   » EAW Archive 4   » RLM paint- a discussion

   
Author Topic: RLM paint- a discussion
Capt A R Brown
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posted 09-20-2000 12:24 PM     Profile for Capt A R Brown   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
In two threads now, German paint has been mentioned. Paint from this era, as has been eluded to, can very emensly (shade,color,hue). Also subjects for modelling skins and accuracy of source. And, so caled scale drawings, how scale are they? I have seen referances to official factory drawings not corresponding to measurements on the real plane (the most important part of official drawings are the dimentions and notes, not the outlines).

Could comments regarding paint and skin subjects be started here so as not have to do a big search.

[This message has been edited by Capt A R Brown (edited 09-20-2000).]


Posts: 275 | From: Gloucester Ontario | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Bury
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posted 09-20-2000 06:43 PM     Profile for Bury   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Capt.

Are you looking for color chip sources? Or FS cross references?


Posts: 156 | From: Spring, Texas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Hussar
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posted 09-20-2000 08:49 PM     Profile for Hussar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
The best reference IMHO is the three volumes of "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings" by K.A.Merrick et al, Published by Kookaburra. After the publishing of the last volume they brought out a further book, especially for modellers which had a reproduction of the official Luftw color chart. This repro was made by mixing paint not by printing colours and thus was costly ( half the price of the book ). I got my copies straight from the publishers ( a stones throw from here ) but I know they were sold big time in the U.S.
I read many rave reviews of them at the time ( late 1970's ).
The publisher (Graeme Pentland) had an ORIGINAL copy of the Official Luftwaffe color chart. I was allowed to look at it in wonder, in a subdued light, but not allowed to touch it or breathe on it !!.....

[This message has been edited by Hussar (edited 09-20-2000).]


Posts: 393 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
rsalo
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posted 09-20-2000 09:25 PM     Profile for rsalo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Try here http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7404/main.html plus there is a link's page there that has ton's of other sites. I'm not sure if scale effect for color was done in game (highly doubt it). I have been building model's for year's and it's tough to get it right, even when you know what scale your dealing with!
Posts: 340 | From: | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Christopher
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posted 09-20-2000 10:35 PM     Profile for Christopher   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I have the Paint Guide binder by Merrick, and Hitchcock right here on my desk.I'm not sure what you would like to know.There is a great chapter with plates on hybrid schemes and info on the hybrid sky grey D9 and some K aircraft.Also info on the RLM chart which never included some green and violet schemes for fighters although there were official directives from RLM on them How can I help? Just ask.
Posts: 318 | From: Puerto Vallarta,Jalisco,Mexico | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
LLv34_Hock
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posted 09-20-2000 11:39 PM     Profile for LLv34_Hock   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Colourtone is not something you will find a definite answer to Im afraid. Wear, application method, thinnertype used, field improvs and scale effect are only some of the variables. Scale modellers have argued for 30 plus years over the correct shade of "Dunkelgelb" ie Panzer yellow, without getting closer to the "truth" ...Take a tip from an ex modeller; Dont go there!!!
Posts: 17 | From: Oslo, Norway | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Peter Lynn
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posted 09-21-2000 08:31 AM     Profile for Peter Lynn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
The entire question of colour on Lufwaffe aircraft has taken almost as much paper as th debate as to whether or not there was a Trojan War. It was a short time ago now that I collected a great deal of evidence for the colours that were SUPPOSED to be used, and under ideal conditions, MAY have been used, however the practical realities of obtaining the correct chemicals, resins and pigments under the stringencies of wartime conditions in my considered opinion caused massive and wide variations in the colours AS APPLIED to the airframes. Later in the war, the position became much worse. The Me 262 at the Smithsonian and the sample at Point Cook in Australia bear this out! The other little spanner in the works comes courtesy of the fighter recycling operations undertaken to keep production and delivery up of useable aircraft (especially fighters) late in the war. One might encounter a fighter produced from the cnnibalised components of several airframes, and since the final product might never actually be attacked with a spraygun, the aircraft would look and absolute patchwork of several different schemes! Add to this the poor colour stabilty and the proneness to wearing, and especially fading, one can quickly appreciate the difficulties. This does not include the temporary night and snow camouflage applied either!
An ex Luftwauufe "man in black" whom I knew would always answer "paint? Schmaint! We painted them in whichever colour we had available!" He pointed out that colours were changed in the field surprisingly often, from the Battle of Britain onward, and attempting to accurately interpret even colour photo renditions become frustrating to say the least. Pentland's books were magnificent. I had them, but fool that I am sold them. They are very valuable by now, I should think. There was also an excellent ring bound publication by Monogram Aviation Publishers that looked at his question of colour also, if that can still be found. ( They also did a superb monogaph series on Luftaffe aircraft) So whle there are colours that can be called quite clearly WRONG, the question as to how one finds the RIGHT colour is fraught with all sorts of jollies. I eventually took to hand tinting my colours when modelling, but even in model paints, there can be variations in batches of even the base colours. What it would have been like for a war weary Luftwaffe does not bear thinking about, RLM or no RLM. Hope that adds some fuel to the fire.
Regards
Peter Lynn

Posts: 232 | From: Perth, W. Australia | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cpt Farrel
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posted 09-21-2000 08:50 AM     Profile for Cpt Farrel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
When it comes to painting skins for sim aircraft it gets pretty hard as well, If you use the colour that is supposed to look right it might look totally of until you've weathered and shaded the skin. That's why I always recommend using the Photoshop layer options so that camo colours can be replaced even after weathering. I'm going to test the colors in the link above later, I might upload some stuff if anyone is interested in seing how it works out.

------------------
That life, that's what I say, riding high in April shot down in May!
http://www.algonet.se/~hjortsb/eaw/index.html


Posts: 130 | From: Gothenburg, Sweden | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Hussar
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posted 09-21-2000 07:13 PM     Profile for Hussar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Oh Peter, how could you sell them ? (The Pentland books). I also saw the Monogram book but IMHO it didnt compare to the Pentland ones. I had a spate of building and flying R/C models of Luftw aircraft around that time hence my interest. I still have my 80" wingspan BF109f in Karl Kempf's JG 54 colors. The books were $12 each when new, makes you cry now.
Posts: 393 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Pierre@
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posted 09-21-2000 07:39 PM     Profile for Pierre@   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
This is a scan of the color chart coming with the "Luftwaffe painting guide" by Smith, Pentland & Lutz.


Posts: 147 | From: Biarritz, France | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Hussar
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posted 09-21-2000 07:47 PM     Profile for Hussar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Well done Pierre, Mine is carefully preserved. As I said I have seen an original and there is no difference that I could see.
Posts: 393 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Sulla
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posted 09-21-2000 08:04 PM     Profile for Sulla   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
But there was a Trojan War Peter!!! I'm sure off it!

Oh sorry.....good topic for another thread though eh Peter .

Good thread guys. I lost alot of my stuff colour plates etc, from moving from place to place over the years. I watch with interest .


Posts: 3945 | From: Essex, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Peter Lynn
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posted 09-22-2000 04:06 AM     Profile for Peter Lynn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Just comparing the Penland chips to those on the link in one of the above replies should provide some indication of the problems...just compare the RLM 02 Grau, for example. I felt the best compromise that can be achieved for our purposes is clearly just that, a compromise, prefeerably not tendng towards the darker side of the colour involved. It is possible to be too pendantic about all this, of course.
Hussar, you don't need to remind me of what I did! I hope you enjoved flying your 190. I was national Nordic A2 class sailplane champion when the nats were held here in WA in 1967 by the way, and could never afford Radio Control. I did my scale modelling in plastic well before they invented white metal bits to hang off'em. Guess you might call me an old barstard in some respects.
Sulla, how are things? The Trojan War continues to be one of life's pleasures, especially when it comes to teaching Mycenaean Greece to wide eyed pre university students!
Regards
Peter Lynn

Posts: 232 | From: Perth, W. Australia | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Sulla
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posted 09-22-2000 04:39 AM     Profile for Sulla   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Hya Peter.
Health good. Internet connection very bad. This is my 6th attempt to reply in nearly 20 minutes with 3 disconnects Of course this is a bad time of day to log on with the Olympics going on (Just watched Donavan Bailey poop out in the 100m. Looks like Maurice Green will do it).

I have some interesting theories for the War. The Minoan / Mycenaen Period are my favourite in history. We will talk.

Sorry to interrupt the discussion guys .


Posts: 3945 | From: Essex, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cpt Farrel
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posted 09-22-2000 09:14 AM     Profile for Cpt Farrel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
I've tried out some different RLM Chip-sets and well the differences are huge. The first skin in the picture is my own version which can be found at my homepage. The other skins uses RLM colours found in various Colorplates and Chipsets. (Never posted pics before so I hopee this will work!)

[This message has been edited by Cpt Farrel (edited 09-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Cpt Farrel (edited 09-22-2000).]


Posts: 130 | From: Gothenburg, Sweden | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Cpt Farrel
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posted 09-22-2000 09:27 AM     Profile for Cpt Farrel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
YES! After a hundred tries I made it! Just forgot the tilde in the adress.
Anyway as you can see the differences are great, the RLM 65 light blue should be much bluer than on my own variant but with the EAW Palette it's just not possible to make it look good. I didn't know myself how much different colourplates and chip sets varied until I did this so it was quite an eye-opener.

[This message has been edited by Cpt Farrel (edited 09-22-2000).]


Posts: 130 | From: Gothenburg, Sweden | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
Bury
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posted 09-22-2000 09:35 AM     Profile for Bury   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
test

[This message has been edited by Bury (edited 09-22-2000).]


Posts: 156 | From: Spring, Texas | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Hussar
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posted 09-22-2000 07:36 PM     Profile for Hussar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
S! Peter
I think we are of similar vintage. I dont fly much anymore, the eyesight and reflexes are not what they were, and as you know you need both for 100mph fighter models. Eaw is much easier. Interesting about your Nordic experience.

Posts: 393 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged
Peter Lynn
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posted 09-23-2000 08:51 AM     Profile for Peter Lynn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
Guten Tag Alles!
Well, Captain Farrell is an amazingly industrious fellow! (I trust all is well, Captain!)In a way he has illustrated some of the problems asociated with these colours. Some of the RLM 02 Grau renditions on the above sample skins are what I would consider to be verrrry close, but some others would have difficulty in camouflaging anything! Captain, we are in your debt for producing these files as even the dumbest non skinner like me can appreciate the problems involved! Colour 02 is a very interesting one, as like 66 it was used as both a cockpit interior colour and a component in external schemes. I gather one of its first exterior uses was to lower the fuelage colour demarcation line on 109s during the Battle of Britain, as well as a replacement for 71 areas of upper surface camouflage, the idea being to provide better over water concealment. The mid to darker samples of this colour would acheive this, while some of the lighter might provide camouflage when flying over a public toilet floor! Besides, the colour photographic evidence tends to show it darker in hue than some of the renditions seen around here of late. Pentland's colour chip would be my personal choice for this with some lightening to suit our application! I know that colour photos are sometimes of doubtful value, but in this case photos match he chip quite nicely. Geoff Pentland also produced a three volume set that went with the painting guide, and I vividly remember a colour photo of a 410 sitting on the apron in 74/75/76. It was a stunning example of just how those particular colours matched the sky and white/grey clouds in the background.
Hussar, are you really that old? Perhaps you could recount some of your Trojan War experiences to Sulla! For my own part, let's just say I remember the very first Airfix Spifire selling for 2/- and their first Lancaster which sold for 7/6d.
Sulla, I'd be interested in hearing your hypteses on the Trojan War. Could the war have been shortened by using carrier based air power?
Regards all,
Peter Lynn
Buster, Buster!

Posts: 232 | From: Perth, W. Australia | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged
stag

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posted 09-23-2000 09:17 AM     Profile for stag     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post
If we had even a 16 bit pallette to work with, we could come up with some fantastic scemes, but unfortuneately, there's only really about 150 USEABLE colours in the EAW palette.

I've got to admit, I'm a bit of a maverick where aircraft colouring is involved. I tend to use the colour which looks right to me, rather than the one which is created when the working image is converted to EAW's pallette. Which way is best? In films and photos, luftwaffe aircraft have a very light blue underside, so that's the colour I use. there is no real RLM equivalent in the palette, so I go for the one my eye tells me looks right. As an aside, I was under the belief that the green undersurfaces On my Spits and hurris were too dark. When compared with the humbrol colour they certainly are. I compromised. But earlier this year I went to see the Battle of Britain Flight, and was pleasantly surprised to find that the colours of one of the Hurricanes, and of the Spitfire Mk.2 were almost identical to the green I chose. Is Humbrol wrong? or are the colours flown today a compromise pigment for something no longer available? Then again, How many variations existed back in 1940?

My friends, there are too many variables to give a definite answer. We can agree that under ideal conditions Luftwaffe aircraft left the factory conforming perfectly to the RLM standard.

But we don't live in a perfect world.


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