If not add the lines:
KEY_XX=RUDDER_LFT
KEY_XX=RUDDER_RGT

Where "XX" is the key of your choice. I used the PERIOD(KEY_PERIOD)and the SLASH (KEY_SLASH).

Shotgun

quote:

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Originally posted by Juggernot:
How the hell do you land this thing on a carrier without rudder control. I have read some of the posts about rudders. I work on a carrier. F/A-18E/F have rudders I know this, I have seen them, and seen them work. But not in this sim I guess. I have a SW Precision Pro USB, but the keyboard controls don't work either at any speed, not even with a patch. If someone could give me some info. Wether I am just flying wrong or if this is a joystick problem, it would be nice.

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Obviously, at high speeds, you don’t want much rudder input authority, whereas at slower speeds, you might want it. But all I know is that depending on several variables like attitude, altitude, speed, etc., the rudder authority is determined by the ARI.

They have modeled it but I dont think very well. There is a high subsonic point (I tested this a while back & dont remember the exact speed) at which the sim eliminates all rudder athority.

There are maybe two problems with the way the rudder is done.

First its there or its not there, there is no progressive loss of authority as your speed builds, This is definatly wrong.

The second one I am not sure of because of the twin tails, but you have 2.5 degrees of yaw maximum & no other effect at all from rudder input. I would have expected the rudder input to induce the wing to drop & the plane to roll somewhat in the direction you are yawing to.

I dont think you understood what I was saying or I did not make it clear enough. I said the F-18 rudder as modeled gave you a YAW deviation from center. When you release the rudder the YAW is eliminated & the plane returns to center & flys straight, it is no longer crabing. There is no deviation from your original course.

The rudders as modeled seem to have ZERO effect on changing your course. Set up a test at 000. Put in full left rudder. The nose will YAW about 2/1/2 degrees off center. Hold the rudder in as long as you want the release it your heading is still 000. There is no course deviation at all.

Also I was unable to duplicate your results on three different machine using 3 different control systems: F-22/TQS/RSC - CH F-16 Combat Stick/Pro Throttle/Pro Pedals & a Wingman Extream.

They were all very consistant in showing about a 2 1/2 degree from center YAW deviation.

135 kts was tried flaps up & down with 50kt increases from that point. The 2 1/2 degree deviation was constant to 550KTS at which time there was no rudder effect. Dropping back to 549kts had the rudder active again at 2 1/2 degrees from center

A Baron P58 lands somewhat faster then the Cessna but the concept is the same, as I said I was not sure what the effect of the dual rudder really is

BEAR

NP. I had to check it out as I had done the test a while back. Actually I though I had remembered it at more the 550kts.

No, As I cant fly by myself. I have Menears Syndrom, an inner ear problem, which causes sudden & unexpected vertigo. This prevents me from passing the physical & although I only get an attack 3 or 4 times a year, there is no way I want to be up alone when it happens.

The thing that really gripes me about the ear problem is it did not prevent me from getting drafted

BEAR

Speaking of vertigo...when I was taking lessons my instructor put me under the hood and put the plane in some unusual attitudes, trying to let me experience what vertigo felt like. The problem was, you could see shadows and light changes, so you never really got the full treatment. Well...my first long night flight after I got my ticket was from Tampa to Atlanta. I had over 100 hours by this time, many at night, so I figured I had the bases covered. YOU CAN'T IMAGINE HOW FREAKING DARK IT IS OVER NORTH FLORIDA AND SOUTH GEORGIA!!! One minute I was flying along as happy as a clam, the next I looked out and had absolutely NO HORIZION. Went to my scan and saw that I was in about a 20 degree bank to the left, and diving. Airspeed was already passing 140 knots (was cruising at about 115) The thing was, I would have sworn that I was straight, level, and steady from what my senses were telling me. I can't tell you how freaking hard it was for me to bank back to the right and pull the nose up. I would have SWORN that I was now in a right bank and climbing. However, airspeed stabilized and the artificial horizon indicated level flight. I stayed like this; glued to the artificial horizon and airspeed for about 10 minutes (felt like 5 hours) until I caught a glimpse of light on the ground off to my right. Instantly, my senses "recalibrated" and once again I was on the same page as my instruments. I was sweating like a pig, and it was cold in the plane!

quote:

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Originally posted by Fixxxer:
Small bug, hehe, man an entire set of control surfaces is missing and you call this a small bug. However, you do not need rudders in JFF18 because there are no stalls in the game, and carrier landings can be done without any rudder control too. In real life rudders are a must.

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You obviously have no idea how the real F/A-18 E/F works at all. The bird has a flight control system which prevents stalls, spins, departures from flight. And yes landings are done without rudder control, I don't think they even use them in real life, except maybe in heavy winds (which isn't modeled in this game). The F-18 is pretty sophisticated, and I've never had a real use for rudders. So the lack of authority with them doesn't bother me much at all. They aren't as important in this bird as with the Flanker and F-15, F-14.

But try this. Go vertical, shut the engines and watch. As the speed comes to 0 the plane starts falling backwards then the nose drops and in a coupe of seconds you have full control. Here is what I dont understand. Will the plane enter a spin or will it just stall and recover. Spins are hard to program and even in Flanker2 spins are very scripted. At low speed no control surface should work, so FCS cannot avoid spins at extremely low speeds.

Another issue. This is a biggie. Fly at 200 knots. Apply right rudder. You can see the nose of the plane shifts to the right, there is a yaw at about 5 degrees or more. But then as you keep applying rudder in the same direction the nose does not shift any further. So I am saying that rudders just produce yaw but cannot change the course of the plane. Then when you release right rudder then nose comes back to its original position like a spring. So basically rudders have no effect in the game. This saves many functions and makes flight model simpler. If you shut down right engine the plane nose should shift to the left by simple physics. I do not see this modelled in the game too. I think that Janes uses poor equations (if any) to descibe behavior around z-axes of the plane.

I welcome all other opinions because I have little understanding in the matter.

This is just an opinion and I will be glad if I am wrong. This is a friendly opinion. I do not want any flames. I hope that when you think about this you will not be biased as well.

Intresting thing on the engine shut down. JF-15 does model this. The plane will roll & turn when you shut down a single engine, so they do have the code written to do this.

Could it be possiable the in JF-18 the FCS makes an automatic adjustment to the control surfaces when an engine goes out?

Fixxer: Yes I do think the rudders are under modeled in this game, but as I said before it's not really a big deal. About the stalling, when you fall back the FCS is trying to correct the stall and soon when your nose is pointed down you will be gaining airspeed and thus the control surfaces will work. You cannot, by any inputs made by you, stall this aircraft as the computer will take over and correct the situation. The F-18 can glide just like any other plane without engine power, so a stall at any time would be very hard to induce. In real life, they have to turn off the FCS to stall the plane for testing purposes. I saw a show on TLC about this, very interesting.

Plus, stalls in the F-18 are not the typical spins we see with the F-14 and Flanker. They are a falling leaf style which means the plane will fall very violently much like a leaf as it falls off a tree. I'm sure Hornit or someone else with more aerodynamic knowledge can explain this in more detail.

>>>Yes, of course the FCS makes appropriate corrections during an engine failure so that you don't notice any effect on your flying. Add this to the fact that the engines are so close together, any effect at all would probably be unnoticeable<<<

I would not be so sure about the "of course" part of your statement. As the rudders don't really seem to have any effect at all in JF-18 outside of creating a slight YAW, it would be very dificult to say that the JF-18 FCS is modeled correctly in handling an engine out problem.

Also since the engine spacing in the F-18 is not that much less then either the F-15 or SU-27 the asymmetrical loadings especially at the higher thrust setting required to maintain flight have to be noticable, if in nothing more than deflected flight surfaces.

Another example that demonstrates that JF-18 does not model asymmetrical loadings is try flying with a full load out on one wing & nothing on the other. There is no sense of the unbalanced weight load when manuvering trying to roll into the heavy wing.

>>>Yes I do think the rudders are under modeled in this game, but as I said before it's not really a big deal.<<<

I would think that having such a basic functional part as the rudder not working in a hi-fi flight sim should be considered a big deal. Even the F-18 in the old USNF/FA has a correctly functioning rudder if you have pedals or elected to use keyboard rudder inputs.

Airborne, you generally use rudders for low speed, high-alpha maneuvering, such as during ACM.

Most of the time, your feet should just be resting on the rudder pedals.

I take it you're a Hornet pilot?

BTW, the multi-million $ sims we fly here don't always mimic how the jet really works.

[This message has been edited by Shadow_12TFS (edited 07-02-2000).]

The "I don't use them, therefore it doesn't need to be simulated" is tough to swallow, especially when all pilots have their own styles. Next time you find yourself in a nasty crosswind, tell me you don't at least kick those rudders right before you touch down to line things up, or do you just give that landing gear a nice side load on impact (keeps those mechanics busy).

If you're like one F-111 pilot I know, when he flew right seat with me during my initial training, he insisted I don't just crab into the wind. He insisted that, "the best of the best use opposite rudder / aileron techniques during the ENTIRE final approach and don't just make a lazy crabbing approach and line things up last minute."

You an ex Ardvark driver? If so, there's a good chance we were stationed together somewhere.

"Yes, of course the FCS makes appropriate corrections during an engine failure so that you don't notice any effect on your flying. Add this to the fact that the engines are so close together, any effect at all would probably be unnoticeable".

I would be very intersted to hear exactly how it might do that!

While landing at an airport one could be faced with a cross wind.
Anyone know what the maximium alowable cross wind is for the F-18?