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Author Topic: Military Jet Collides with Civilian Plane
batboy
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posted 11-16-2000 02:55 PM     Profile for batboy     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Details are sketchy as this is breaking news at 4:40 EST on Thursday. I heard it was an F-16 which hit a Cesna, but this may be false.
Posts: 81 | From: Philadelphia, PA USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
A1C_Childress
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posted 11-16-2000 03:10 PM     Profile for A1C_Childress     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
True, true. I just heard about it on AFN and I'm in England. Caught my eye of course due to being a military plane, but also because it happened about 20 miles east of my old base, MacDill AFB in Tampa.

Apparently an F-16 collided with a Cessna. The pilot ejected and is apparently ok, the Cessna crew is presumed dead.

I was stationed at MacDill from June 99-Aug 00. MacDill USED to be an F-16 training base before the planes went to Luke AFB in Arizona (the 56th Fighter Wing, a training unit). Currently at MacDill are one KC-135 squadron and one E-3B in a TDY status. We had AWACS planes from Kadena, Tinker, and Elmendorf rotate in to fly counterdrug missions. I spent many a night walking behind that plane with an M-16. :-)

MacDill is also home to HQ USCENTCOM and HQ USSOCOM (Central Command and Special Operations Command, respectively). We had about 15-20 generals to watch over, including two four-stars. Some that you might remember wer a couple of CINCCENT's, Marine Gen Anthony Zinni and of course, Army Gen Norman Scwarzkopf (did I spell that right? :-) ).

Well, gotta run...Just wondering if my formaer squadmates are standing security on this site right now....


Jared A. Childress
A1C, USAF
48th Security Forces Sq
RAF Lakenheath, UK


Posts: 49 | From: RAF Lakenheath, UK | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
mariacchi
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posted 11-16-2000 04:10 PM     Profile for mariacchi     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
i wonder what makes a civillian propeller and a military jet to collide?
one can outrun the sound barrier and the other can't even chase Suzuki Hayabusa!! but somehow they manage to collide midair

any info about how the collision happened?


Posts: 300 | From: Izmir, TURKEY | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged
Sinkhole33
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posted 11-16-2000 05:04 PM     Profile for Sinkhole33     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mariacchi:
i wonder what makes a civillian propeller and a military jet to collide?
one can outrun the sound barrier and the other can't even chase Suzuki Hayabusa!! but somehow they manage to collide midair

any info about how the collision happened?



I was wondering the same thing. It must have happened at low altitude since I think the Cessna normally cruises at 3,000(?) They must have been going at right angles to completely not see eachother.


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Tazzman
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posted 11-16-2000 05:17 PM     Profile for Tazzman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
This is from the NewsCoast Herald Tribune:

FAA: Military jet collides with Cessna in mid-air
posted 11/16/00
STAFF REPORT LIVE COVERAGE FROM SNN-6

An F-16 military jet collided in mid-air Thursday with a single-engined
civilian aircraft about 20 miles southeast of MacDill Air Force Base,
according to the FAA.

At least one witness reported seeing someone parachute to the ground after
hearing an explosion Thursday afternoon east of Lakewood Ranch on the
Sarasota-Manatee county border.
Don McIlwain, a resident of Rosedale, a subdivision near I-75 and State Road
70, said he saw the crash. According to McIlwain: Two military planes,
reportedly F-16s, were flying south, low enough to catch McIlwain's
attention. Then McIlwain saw a smaller third plane heading east that looked
as if it would cross the military jets' path. McIlwain said he remembered
thinking, "I hope it's high enough. Just as I said that, he went right
through it," McIlwain said. "The small plane just disintegrated."

The collision occurred east of I-75, between University Parkway and State
Road 70. Witnesses reported seeing at least one pilot parachute out of one
of the military planes. McIlwain said the two larger planes appeared to
continue in the air unharmed. "I could hear a delayed noise -- like a
crack -- and a minor explosion," McIlwain said.

One aircraft is confirmed down near a gas station on University Parkway in
Manatee County. Another is downed on the second hole of the Rosedale Golf
and Country Club course. One witness reported that the ejected pilot
survived and walked away from the crash site. Early reports show two dead in
the smaller civilian plane. One witness reported liquid leaking from the
plane before the pilot ejected and the aircraft exploded.


---------------------------------------

May I add that here in the Netherlands, our (sole?) female F-16 pilot also had a mid-air with a little plane, I think it was a Bonanza or something of that class.

She was forced to eject after her F-16 bursted into flames after the mid-air. The wreckage of the F-16 landed not far from the crashsite of the little sports plane. Two people in the little plane, said to be an instructor and (student?) pilot, where dead. Most likely upon impact with the F-16.

This happened in a military low altitude flying zone.

------------------

Tazz
87th Stray Dogs
"As good as it gets"

www.87th.org


Posts: 1647 | From: The Netherlands | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Tropic_50
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posted 11-16-2000 06:45 PM     Profile for Tropic_50   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Crash occurred closer to 4:00 EST near a subdivision outside of Sarasota. I did not see the actual collision, but watched as pilot's parachute and second, smaller parachute descended over plume of black smoke while pilot's wingman circled repeatedly. Chilling sight. Two civilians (unidentified) believed dead, details still sketchy.
Posts: 17 | From: Venice, Fla. USA | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
BearTrax
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posted 11-16-2000 07:57 PM     Profile for BearTrax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
All of the collisions between military jets and civilian light planes that I have heard of occurred below 5000 feet. Why do they happen? Pure chance, or God's will. Take your pick.

I have been on both ends of the stick. A fighter near-miss with a light plane and a light-plane near-miss with the fighter. I would rather be in the fighter. When you are in the light plane and see a fighter at the last second, say a prayer. The ability of a slow-mover to get out of the way of a fast-mover is very limited. If you are in the fighter and have a second or two, a twitch of the stick will get you clear. The light plane speed is so slow compared to the fighter's that it is a stationary object for all practical purposes.

The most gutsball lightplane drivers I have ever seen were in Vietnam flying the O-1E, a glorified Piper Cub. When I was flying with these guys and taking photos, they would get very close to the fighters. They were operating on trust that the fighters had them in sight and would not hit them. We flew so slow in the O-1E(90-100knots) that it was simply impossible to get out of the way of a fighter headed for you.

In good visibility there is no excuse for a fighter to fly into a lightplane. In low viz of less than three miles, its a gamble.
In any case, it's the fighter's responsibility to avoid the lightplane. The other way around doesn't work.
BearTrax


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BearTrax
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posted 11-16-2000 07:59 PM     Profile for BearTrax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
All of the collisions between military jets and civilian light planes that I have heard of occurred below 5000 feet. Why do they happen? Pure chance, or God's will. Take your pick.

I have been on both ends of the stick. A fighter near-miss with a light plane and a light-plane near-miss with the fighter. I would rather be in the fighter. When you are in the light plane and see a fighter at the last second, say a prayer. The ability of a slow-mover to get out of the way of a fast-mover is very limited. If you are in the fighter and have a second or two, a twitch of the stick will get you clear. The light plane speed is so slow compared to the fighter's that it is a stationary object for all practical purposes.

The most gutsball lightplane drivers I have ever seen were in Vietnam flying the O-1E, a glorified Piper Cub. When I was flying with these guys and taking photos, they would get very close to the fighters. They were operating on trust that the fighters had them in sight and would not hit them. We flew so slow in the O-1E(90-100knots) that it was simply impossible to get out of the way of a fighter headed for you.

In good visibility there is no excuse for a fighter to fly into a lightplane. In low viz of less than three miles, its a gamble.
In any case, it's the fighter's responsibility to avoid the lightplane. The other way around doesn't work.
BearTrax


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Catcher
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posted 11-16-2000 08:15 PM     Profile for Catcher   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Tazz,

Never knew that Seppe Airfield was situated in a mil. low fly zone? The mid air was just east of Seppe
Thought that these low fly area's where above the North Sea north of the Wadden eilanden?

-------
A few years back, when i was skydiving on a weekday, i saw two F16's passing by, just after we had taken off.(EHMZ)
I looked through the rear windshield of our Cessna 182(PH-DES) and saw them racing by from left to right, between 700 and 1000ft or so.
Did they see us? I will never know.
One thing i do know is that if you see somethin' and it does not 'move' in your glare shield or hud, than it's traveling to or from you. If 'it' moves, chances are slim that you will colide.(duh)

Catcher.

"My dad is a magician, saw him laying in his bed face down, with his knees up"


Posts: 112 | From: The Netherlands | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Night_owl
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posted 11-18-2000 04:03 AM     Profile for Night_owl   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Taz, I'm sorry to interrupt your story about the Dutch mid-air collision but....

It's true that an F-16 MLU with a female pilot (not the only one within the RNLAF actually) had a mid-air with a Bonanza. Both people in the Bonanza, a student and instructor, died. The F-16 however had some technical problems but the pilot did NOT eject! The F-16 did NOT crash, it landed at an airbase! Last time we lost an F-16 (OCU of 312 sqn) was last year during BFM over the North sea. The plane departed from controlled flight and the pilot was forced to eject.

Problem with the mid-air with the Bonanza was that the F-16s came out of a low level transit area. Slow flying planes like small civilian avation planes are very difficult to see when you are doing over 400 KCAS !
I don't exactly recollect if the F-16 pilot was to blame but all in all it's a real tragedy.

Beartrax is spot on about the figures! Mid-air between civilian an militairy planes always are below 5,000 ft and they really are just pure chance....


[This message has been edited by Night_owl (edited 11-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Night_owl (edited 11-18-2000).]


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grmcle
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posted 11-18-2000 05:46 AM     Profile for grmcle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The guy in the Cessna was a good friend of a good friend of mine. I did not know him, but he was an instructer pilot at the Crystal River airport.

I have a note posted on Delphi with news articles and a picture of the Cessna pilot --check it out.

------------------
George


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Tazzman
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posted 11-18-2000 05:48 AM     Profile for Tazzman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
NightOwl,

The F-16 was a write off, she DID eject. The aircraft engine was on fire after the crash.
The F-16 did NOT land but crashed into the field close to the mid-air location.

I know for a fact that the aircraft was lost as immediately after the crash several Cougar helicopters with groundcrew and several firefighting verhicles were dispatched to the site to contain the hydrazine before it could be exposed.

A good friend of mine was a crewchief on that base in that time (He's now working at Volkel, 306 Sq) and he told me they had to a 'hydrazine' scramble to the crashsite.

Catcher:

Well it's not like a LOW level flying area with unrestricted floor. But it is an area where militairy aircraft do operate on a low floor.

Visibility that day wasn't too good if I recall correctly. It was a grey cloudy winterday with not much sunlight either.

------------------

Tazz
87th Stray Dogs
"As good as it gets"

www.87th.org


Posts: 1647 | From: The Netherlands | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
Tazzman
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posted 11-18-2000 07:02 AM     Profile for Tazzman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You had me in doubt there so I just went through my records and this is what I found regarding that Dutch F-16 mid air:

The accident happened on the 22nd December 1999.

Pilot was 1st LT Lonneke Maes of 315 Sqn.
The F-16 was a F-16AM (MLU upgrade) with serial J-059 and was the very first F-16AM that the KLu lost.

The aircraft collided with Piper PA-28 with registration PH-BLY. Both pilot and student of the PA-28 were killed on impact, the F-16 was badly damaged, several systems out and an engine fire. 1st LT Maes was forced to eject after which the F-16 crashed into a farmers field, not far from where the wreckages of the PA-28 had crashed.

------------------

Tazz
87th Stray Dogs
"As good as it gets"

www.87th.org


Posts: 1647 | From: The Netherlands | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
JohnUK
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posted 11-18-2000 11:18 AM     Profile for JohnUK   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hydrazine ? be interested too know what part of the f16 uses this `rocket fuel` ?
Never heard it mentioned before.

Too late, i guess its used in the ejection seat ? but i would have thought solid fuel motors would be more reliable. Might not be that either though

[This message has been edited by JohnUK (edited 11-18-2000).]


Posts: 762 | From: Bournemouth United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tazzman
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posted 11-18-2000 11:42 AM     Profile for Tazzman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
From Vipers in the Storm, page 186:

"Before Wedge can respond, Stroke 1 calls out again: "Okay...Stroke 1... I just lost my engine... I'm on EPU!"

"The F-16 EPU (Tazz:emergency power unit), is designed to operate automatically when an engine flames out. The unit is powered by hydrazine, a chemical mixture of nitrogen, hydrogen, ammonia and water. When the EPU fires, the gaseous products spin a turbine gearbox, which powers the EPU generator and a hydraulic pump. Unfortunately, the system can only operate for about ten minutes. Once the hydrazine is depleted, the aircraft will go out of control".

------------------

Tazz
87th Stray Dogs
"As good as it gets"

www.87th.org


Posts: 1647 | From: The Netherlands | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
JohnUK
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posted 11-18-2000 12:20 PM     Profile for JohnUK   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks for that info. Ive got about 50ml hydrazine hydrate that i once intended too try in a model rocket engine. Chickened out though.
Posts: 762 | From: Bournemouth United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Night_owl
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posted 11-18-2000 02:25 PM     Profile for Night_owl   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
you're right Tazz... sorry for that!!!!
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Night_owl
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posted 11-18-2000 02:27 PM     Profile for Night_owl   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
you're right Tazz... sorry for that!!!!
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Tazzman
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posted 11-19-2000 01:37 PM     Profile for Tazzman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
John,

You should REALLY stay far far AWAY from Hydrazine!

Whenever there is a hydrazine leak reported or a hydrazine spill, a F-16 is immediately towed to a seperate area or the shelter gets sealed off and firefighters in chemical suits hose the area down ...

My friend (who's a 306Sq Crewchief) told me that Hydrazine is very very very dangerous and can be lethal.

------------------

Tazz
87th Stray Dogs
"As good as it gets"

www.87th.org


Posts: 1647 | From: The Netherlands | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged
JohnUK
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posted 11-19-2000 02:10 PM     Profile for JohnUK   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Your right of course....... thats why i gave up on the idea of a model rocket including the nitric acid one
Posts: 762 | From: Bournemouth United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 1999  |  IP: Logged
Tazzman
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posted 11-19-2000 02:19 PM     Profile for Tazzman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
John,

Well just thought I'd mentioned it.. would hate to see something happen to you.

There aren't *THAT* many Virtual Viper Drivers in the world you know

------------------

Tazz
87th Stray Dogs
"As good as it gets"

www.87th.org


Posts: 1647 | From: The Netherlands | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged

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